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Quote (theodorej @ Mar. 09 2011,07:06) Admitting you do not know something is the beginning of education and learning..Educate me….
Hi Theo,I was being “matter of factual”, not “authoritarian”.
You seemed to be having trouble with the answer, so I showed you the only two scriptures you even need to consider. There is much more said about it in other scriptures, but nothing that contradicts what these two scriptures say.
And when I started this thread all those months and pages ago, I DIDN'T have the answers………….and that's why I asked. But 221 pages later, we've all examined MANY scriptures and thoughts, and so I'm teaching you from what I've learned in the process.
We KNOW that Jesus is now a spirit, for three different scriptures say so. We KNOW that Jesus has a new glorious body, for Paul expresses his hope to be given one just like it.
So just by these two things, we KNOW that at least ONE spirit has a body.
Add to that the fact that 1 Cor 15 explains that those resurrected to heaven will have a spiritual body………….LIKE THOSE OF HEAVEN HAVE.
Or you could consider the “separation” problem that Pierre and I tried to get certain others here to understand. Maybe YOU could explain what they could not:
When an angel is said to be “in the presence of God”, what is it that distinguishes where the angel ends and God begins? What SEPARATES the two of them from blending into only ONE being?
Some have suggested that angels are “everywhere all the time”. But clear scriptures prove this not to be the case. Angels are said to “COME TO” places and “LEAVE FROM” places in scripture. If they were truly “everywhere all the time”, they would have no need to COME or LEAVE, since they'd already BE everywhere.
And since we know from these scriptures that they AREN'T “everywhere all the time”, then there has to be a place where they ARE and places where they AREN'T at any given time. In order for that to happen, they have to have some kind of “boundary” or “membrane” or something that distinguishes where they ARE from where they are NOT. That “membrane” or “outer perimeter” would be a “BODY”.
You see, Theo, I wasn't trying to be “flippant”, but only trying to “sum it up” for you with a scriptural fact – quickly and conscisely. Obviously there IS much more to the question, as we have all learned over the last 221 pages., but those two scriptures tell you the answer very quickly and truthfully.
Sorry if I offended,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 08 2011,21:26)
MIke………..When you see a FLESH WORD lets us know
But it's what the scripture says, right Gene? DO YOU ACCEPT that scripture or not?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 08 2011,21:26)
As regarding Angle being Ministering Spirits , that is true they are ministering spirit because GOD Made their Spirits (IN) them
But the word (IN) is not in the scripture I quoted, is it? So, do you accept that scripture or not?Gene, do you accept BOTH of the scriptures I posted AS IS, WITHOUT ADDING IN YOUR OWN WORDS………….OR NOT?
mike
Mike………Seeing you accept it a saying a WORD is FLESH them you should have no problem showing us how that IS Right. You problem is you can quote scripture but you don't understand the context it is referring to. NO Jesus is (NOT) the WORD of GOD , GOD and HIS WORDS are ONE and the SAME PERSON, no matter how you people try to hammer that around it still does not change. Paladin gave you a complete and accurate explanation of it with all the proper Greek tense and you still can't understand it. Jesus spoke NOT HIS WORDS but GOD'S WORDS to us and that does NOT make Him the WORD HE Spoke to US , no more then if I spoke GOD Word to some one would Make ME His WORD or The WORD I SPOKE either. Quoting someone does not make you that person or his word you spoke. Only a fool would believe a WORD is FLESH. A word is SPIRIT and a SPIRIT is not FLESH now or even when Jesus existed on earth either. A word is a expressed Intellect and not FLESH. Calling someone a Word does NOT Make his flesh a Word.
Mike what you really mean is not do i accept scripture , is is do i accept your rendition of what scripture is saying right. Again is you have seen a “FLESH WORD” tell us what it looks like what type of flesh does it have give us all a description of what a “WORD” LOOKS LIKE.
gene
Mike! You know we have a perfect Scriptures that shows who The Word of God is.
Rev 19:11 ¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
I think there is only one being that fits all of this description, and that is Jesus Christ. The Word or better The Spoken Word of God……
He will come again as The Word of God and KING of KINGS and LORD of LORDS. Both God and The Word of God are titles…..
And Paladin never came back I think, and explained who it is in Rev. 19…
Peace and love Irene
Irene………Paladin explained it perfectly but what difference does it make you people will not believe it no matter what anyone says. God back and reread what he said , he was right one about this IMO.
peace and love…………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 10 2011,07:06) Mike what you really mean is not do i accept scripture , is is do i accept your rendition of what scripture is saying right.
Gene,Your whole post was nonsense and just goes to prove that you would rather get up on your soapbox and tell us all YOUR UNDERSTANDING than to address and accept the scriptures as they are. You say what I quoted was “MY rendition”?
Okay, let's see:John 1:14 RHE
Douay-Rheims
And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 KJV
King James Version
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.John 1:14 NLT
New Living Translation
So the Word became human and lived here on earth among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the only Son of the Father.
John 1:14 WEB
World English Bible
The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 YLT
Young's Literal Translation
And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 ASV
American Standard Version
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 BBE
Bible in Basic English
And so the Word became flesh and took a place among us for a time; and we saw his glory–such glory as is given to an only son by his father–saw it to be true and full of grace.
John 1:14 CJB
Complete Jewish Bible
The Word became a human being and lived with us, and we saw his Sh'khinah, the Sh'khinah of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 ELB
Elberfelder 1905 (German)
Und das Wort ward Fleisch und wohnte unter uns (und wir haben seine Herrlichkeit angeschaut, eine Herrlichkeit als eines Eingeborenen vom Vater), voller Gnade und Wahrheit;
John 1:14 ESV
English Standard Version
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 GW
GOD'S WORD Translation
The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth.
John 1:14 GNT
Good News Translation
The Word became a human being and, full of grace and truth, lived among us. We saw his glory, the glory which he received as the Father's only Son.
John 1:14 HNV
Hebrew Names Version
The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 CSB
Holman Christian Standard
The Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We observed His glory, the glory as the One and Only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 LUT
Luther Bible 1912 (German)
Und das Wort ward Fleisch und wohnte unter uns, und wir sahen seine Herrlichkeit, eine Herrlichkeit als des eingeborenen Sohnes vom Vater, voller Gnade und Wahrheit.
John 1:14 NAS
New American Standard
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.John 1:14 NCV
New Century Version
The Word became a human and lived among us. We saw his glory — the glory that belongs to the only Son of the Father — and he was full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 NIRV
New International Reader's Version
The Word became a human being. He made his home with us. We have seen his glory. It is the glory of the one and only Son. He came from the Father. And he was full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 NIV
New International Version
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 NKJV
New King James Version
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 NRS
New Revised Standard
And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father's only son, full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 RSV
Revised Standard Version
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.
John 1:14 DBY
The Darby Translation
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father), full of grace and truth;
John 1:14 MSG
The Message
The Word became flesh and blood, and moved into the neighborhood. We saw the glory with our own eyes, the one-of-a-kind glory, like Father, like Son, Generous inside and out, true from start to finish.
John 1:14 WBT
The Webster Bible
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 TMB
Third Millennium Bible
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only Begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 TNIV
Today's New International Version
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only [Son], who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 WNT
Weymouth New Testament
And the Word came in the flesh, and lived for a time in our midst, so that we saw His glory–the glory as of the Father's only Son, sent from His presence. He was full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 WYC
Wycliffe
And the word was made man, and dwelled among us, and we have seen the glory of him, as the glory of the one begotten Son of the Father, full of grace and of truth. [And the word, that is, God's Son, is made flesh, or man, and hath dwelled in us, and we have seen the glory of him, the glory as of the one begotten of the Father, the Son full of grace and truth.]NET © Now the Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We saw his glory – the glory of the one and only, full of grace and truth, who came from the Father.
MSG ©
The Word became flesh and blood, and moved into the neighborhood. We saw the glory with our own eyes, the one-of-a-kind glory, like Father, like Son, Generous inside and out, true from start to finish.Gene, there are 31 different translations that support “MY rendition”. (I even left the two German translations in so Irene could translate for us.
) How many translations have you found to support YOUR rendition that the Word “came to be IN someone who was flesh”? But more importantly than all this, what do the Greek words themselves say?
“kai ho logos s
arx ginomai”, which means “and the word flesh became”Gene, do you accept this scripture AS IS, along with what it teaches us…………or not? After all, it was YOU who said to Pierre, “Terricca…….. Show me (ONE) Scripture in black and white i rejected.”
And do I have to go through this same exercise with Hebrews 1:14………or do you get the point?
mike
Quote (Baker @ Mar. 10 2011,07:54) Mike! You know we have a perfect Scriptures that shows who The Word of God is.
Yeah, I know. I listed two German translations in the post above………..would you translate for us? peace and love,
mikeMike………..So how does a WORD appear as FLESH seeing you truly believe a Word CAN Be FLESH tell us what it looks like as FLESH. I full well know a Word can Be (IN) A FLESH and Blood Person but i have yet to see a real FLESH WORD> Can you tell us where one is. I read those scriptures as the Word of GOD or GOD'S Word came to be (IN) Christ Jesus. I see not Flesh word there as you seem to. I always thought WORDS was an EXPRESSION OF THOUGHTS. I never thought word were flesh or physical, but perhaps you understand words Differently then the rest of man kind. Right?
peace and love………………………………..gene
You're getting closer to the truth all the time, Gene.
You are right that a spoken word doesn't become flesh. On this fact we agree.
So, now what? Do we start adding our own words into the scripture to make it say “the word came to be IN someone who was flesh” – even though that's not what the scripture says?
OR………………do we look for other options of what “the Word” can mean? Hmmmm………….the Abyssinian King's spokesman was called “the Word of the King”, because he spoke the King's words to the people.
Wait a minute, that sounds familiar. Jesus is called “the Word of God” in Revelation………….AND he also spoke the words of God to the people.
What a coincidence!
Could it be that the Word was a title that Jesus has as God's main spokesman? Could it be that Jesus is the one who BECAME flesh?Man! What an epiphany! And it also fits right in with 40 other scriptures! Good going Gene! You did it!
mike
Mike…………I never contested the fact Jesus Spoke God's Word to Us , i have alway said that before you were ever on the site. But when you or other try to make Jesus the WORD HIMSELF by implying HE is THE WORD of GOD, that is where you teachings start to falter, and when you start inserting the word Jesus for “the Word” in John 1:1, is a proof of your forcing the text and show you real intent is to Push Jesus as originator of GOD'S WORDS Himself, rather then a “spokesman” of those words to us. You use this to try to tie it into your misunderstand of God Creating everything “THROUGH” Jesus dogmas. IMO
peace and love…………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 17 2011,18:14) Mike…………I never contested the fact Jesus Spoke God's Word to Us , i have alway said that before you were ever on the site. But when you or other try to make Jesus the WORD HIMSELF by implying HE is THE WORD of GOD, that is where you teachings start to falter,
Okay,Do you contest that the spokesman for the King of Abyssinia was called “the Word of the King”? This spokeman wasn't really a spoken word, Gene. He was a human being who was CALLED “the Word of the King” because he spoke the King's words to the people.
Is there any solid reason you can give us for rejecting the possibility that Jesus, as a spokesman for God, had the title of “the Word of God”?
mike
Mike………..Again i have not problem of someone Speaking someone else's words and Him saying these are not my word but the word of him who sent me. God also Spoke through the Prophets so we also could say they were the Word of GOD also right? Don't know what is so hard to understand about that. None of those then or now who speak GOD Word (MAKES THEM THE WORDS THEY SPEAK) if those words did not ORIGINATE form themselves. I have no problem with that, it is when you people put more importance on those scriptures then they imply and translate that into saying Jesus was the “Word” mentioned in John 1:1 and try to use Jesus as speaking God words to us as meaning Jesus was “the Word” Mention in John 1:1, that is when i completely disagree with you because it is forcing the text to say what you want it to and is a means of pushing Jesus' preexistence as a being before his berth on earth, which i totally disagree with. IMO
peace and love………………………………….gene
Gene,
You are dancing all around the truth of the matter. Take this a step at a time, and DIRECTLY answer my questions.
1. Do you contest that the spokesman for the King of Abyssinia was called “the Word of the King”? YES or NO?
This spokeman wasn't really a spoken word, Gene. He was a human being who was CALLED “the Word of the King” because he spoke the King's words to the people.
2. Gene, do you understand that a human being can be called “the Word of someone” if that human being is the MAIN spokesman for that person? YES or NO?
3. Is there any solid reason you can give us for rejecting the possibility that Jesus, as the MAIN spokesman for God, had the title of “the Word of God”? YES or NO?
mike
Mike……………Actually Jesus did not speak (FOR) GOD at all, GOD Spoke (THROUGH) Him. Just like He spoke (Through) the Prophets. Or do you doubt GOD spoke through the Prophets, Now if GOD spoke through the Prophets as he did Jesus , does that then make the Prophets the word of GOD also.
“FOR GOD AT DIFFERENT TIMES IN THE PAST SPOKE TO US “through” THE PROPHETS HAS IN THESE LATTER DAY SPOKEN TO US “through” A SON”. Now Mike where does Jesus not line up with those Prophets who spoke Gods words to us.
Because you find some place that say a spokesman was the Kins word, that just means the spokesmen spoke the kings words , it does not MAKE HIM those words He Spoke, because they were the KINGS WORDS not HIS WORDS. Remember Jesus the words he spoke were (NOT HIS WORDS). Does that help you any, let be honest the only reason you Preexistences push that Word thing is because you can force the text of John to put Jesus as a Preexisting Being before his berth on earth. Trying to hammer this Word thing is for that purpose ONLY Mike lets try to be Hones for a change Here. IMO
peace and love…………………………………………..gene
Gene,
I have clearly listed three YES or NO questions. I'm awaiting your YES or NO answers to those questions.
mike
Mike……..Question 1……….yes you can call a person a spokesman a mouth piece or the (CALL HIM OR HER) anything you want to but that does NOT MAKE THAT PERSON WHAT YOU CALL HIM OR SHE NOW DOES IT. So if Jesus is Called the Word of GOD that Still doesn N OT MAKE THE WORD themselves of GOD no more then if you or I were CALLED the WORD of GOD would Make Us that either. If is said the man was the head honcho would that make him a actual ” honcho” , no it simply describes his position, Just as Jesus being called the Word does ,
2 Yes
Jesus is not the MAIN Spokesman of GOD'S WORD GOD HIMSELF Jesus is the relaying GOD Word to US, and it would make no difference if GOD were to Speak through anyone it Still would be GOD'S WORDS and NOT the WORDS of the PERSON Quoting them. Be Honest for a change Mike you use this to push Jesus' Preexistence By saying John 1:1 is saying by that that Jesus was preexisting with GOD the FATHER in the BEGINNING of CREATION Just as the Trinitarians do also. IMO
peace and love……………………………..gene
You have answered question #2 correctly. I think you agree with #1, but have not given a “YES” or a “NO” to the question…………would you do so please? Remember that I am asking if you CONTEST this historical FACT or not. The answer should be “NO” if you do not CONTEST this fact.
You have avoided a “YES” or “NO” to question #3. Will you answer the DIRECT question with a DIRECT answer of “YES” or “NO”?
mike
Mike……………NO……..Because you are making the (TITLE) the BEING, So in this instance it is NO . GOD'S Word is GOD'S WORD not JESUS' WORDS> If you say Jesus was SPEAKING GOD'S WORD to US the answer is YES. Here is what you are doing , The car is a Falcon or Cougar, or Mustang Tell me do you see and animal or a car. GET it”, a TILE does not mean it is (the) but a position the person has Person , A ship or airplane is call a She Now is it (really a She) NO. Being CALLED the WORD of GOD by anyone other then GOD is a TITLE.
Showing representation NOT REALITY of SOURCE. The same thing applies to you KINGS SPOKESMEN THING. No one here lack the Knowledge the Jesus spoke to Us (GOD'S WORDS) NOT HIS OWN WORDS> He gave GOD”S Words, the words the FATHER wanted GIVEN I have never had a problem with that. MIKE it is Just a title that give creditability to some one or thing, but does not necessarily mean it is the very thing that title is attached to. Tell the truth here you are using this to show PREEXISTENCE , trying to push John 1:1 for a preexistence view, and this has nothing to do with your three questions. IMO
peace and love………………………………………gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2011,13:00) which Quote (theodorej @ Mar. 09 2011,07:06) Admitting you do not know something is the beginning of education and learning..Educate me….
Hi Theo,I was being “matter of factual”, not “authoritarian”.
You seemed to be having trouble with the answer, so I showed you the only two scriptures you even need to consider. There is much more said about it in other scriptures, but nothing that contradicts what these two scriptures say.
And when I started this thread all those months and pages ago, I DIDN'T have the answers………….and that's why I asked. But 221 pages later, we've all examined MANY scriptures and thoughts, and so I'm teaching you from what I've learned in the process.
We KNOW that Jesus is now a spirit, for three different scriptures say so. We KNOW that Jesus has a new glorious body, for Paul expresses his hope to be given one just like it.
So just by these two things, we KNOW that at least ONE spirit has a body.
Add to that the fact that 1 Cor 15 explains that those resurrected to heaven will have a spiritual body………….LIKE THOSE OF HEAVEN HAVE.
Or you could consider the “separation” problem that Pierre and I tried to get certain others here to understand. Maybe YOU could explain what they could not:
When an angel is said to be “in the presence of God”, what is it that distinguishes where the angel ends and God begins? What SEPARATES the two of them from blending into only ONE being?
Some have suggested that angels are “everywhere all the time”. But clear scriptures prove this not to be the case. Angels are said to “COME TO” places and “LEAVE FROM” places in scripture. If they were truly “everywhere all the time”, they would have no need to COME or LEAVE, since they'd already BE everywhere.
And since we know from these scriptures that they AREN'T “everywhere all the time”, then there has to be a place where they ARE and places where they AREN'T at any given time. In order for that to happen, they have to have some kind of “boundary” or “membrane” or something that distinguishes where they ARE from where they are NOT. That “membrane” or “outer perimeter” would be a “BODY”.
You see, Theo, I wasn't trying to be “flippant”, but only trying to “sum it up” for you with a scriptural fact – quickly and conscisely. Obviously there IS much more to the question, as we have all learned over the last 221 pages., but those two scriptures tell you the answer very quickly and truthfully.
Sorry if I offended,
mike
Greetings Mik…. No offense taken and no offense intended…..not withstanding the voluminous amounts of scripture which speaks to the heavenly realm and their haviing or not having a body….spiritual or other wise….The question still remains,”Do spirits have bodies?”As I see it and because we do not realy fully understand the gerth and subsequent power that exists…Scripture has spoken on numerous occasions of a manefestation of a spirit being in the body of a flesh and blood man..(eg.Melchezedek)…I would think spirit beings can manefest at will in a human body ….The answer is no they don't have human bodies but they can…Quote (theodorej @ Mar. 22 2011,11:02) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2011,13:00) which Quote (theodorej @ Mar. 09 2011,07:06) Admitting you do not know something is the beginning of education and learning..Educate me….
Hi Theo,I was being “matter of factual”, not “authoritarian”.
You seemed to be having trouble with the answer, so I showed you the only two scriptures you even need to consider. There is much more said about it in other scriptures, but nothing that contradicts what these two scriptures say.
And when I started this thread all those months and pages ago, I DIDN'T have the answers………….and that's why I asked. But 221 pages later, we've all examined MANY scriptures and thoughts, and so I'm teaching you from what I've learned in the process.
We KNOW that Jesus is now a spirit, for three different scriptures say so. We KNOW that Jesus has a new glorious body, for Paul expresses his hope to be given one just like it.
So just by these two things, we KNOW that at least ONE spirit has a body.
Add to that the fact that 1 Cor 15 explains that those resurrected to heaven will have a spiritual body………….LIKE THOSE OF HEAVEN HAVE.
Or you could consider the “separation” problem that Pierre and I tried to get certain others here to understand. Maybe YOU could explain what they could not:
When an angel is said to be “in the presence of God”, what is it that distinguishes where the angel ends and God begins? What SEPARATES the two of them from blending into only ONE being?
Some have suggested that angels are “everywhere all the time”. But clear scriptures prove this not to be the case. Angels are said to “COME TO” places and “LEAVE FROM” places in scripture. If they were truly “everywhere all the time”, they would have no need to COME or LEAVE, since they'd already BE everywhere.
And since we know from these scriptures that they AREN'T “everywhere all the time”, then there has to be a place where they ARE and places where they AREN'T at any given time. In order for that to happen, they have to have some kind of “boundary” or “membrane” or something that distinguishes where they ARE from where they are NOT. That “membrane” or “outer perimeter” would be a “BODY”.
You see, Theo, I wasn't trying to be “flippant”, but only trying to “sum it up” for you with a scriptural fact – quickly and conscisely. Obviously there IS much more to the question, as we have all learned over the last 221 pages., but those two scriptures tell you the answer very quickly and truthfully.
Sorry if I offended,
mike
Greetings Mik…. No offense taken and no offense intended…..not withstanding the voluminous amounts of scripture which speaks to the heavenly realm and their haviing or not having a body….spiritual or other wise….The question still remains,”Do spirits have bodies?”As I see it and because we do not realy fully understand the gerth and subsequent power that exists…Scripture has spoken on numerous occasions of a manefestation of a spirit being in the body of a flesh and blood man..(eg.Melchezedek)…I would think spirit beings can manefest at will in a human body ….The answer is no they don't have human bodies but they can…
hi Theoit seems in your answer you mean no answer is your answer,right??
if angel can take a human body for the sake of there mission,would this not mean that they themself as a angel are individuals with a limited boundary body(body means not flesh but limits of yourself,)
just as all creatures are who are in creation.NO ?Pierre
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