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Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 23 2011,01:43) Mike and all, it is obvious from the scripture that you want me to explain Mike, 1 corinthians 15 that Jesus is the first to be given a glorified body risen from the dead. Then were others. That's what the verses are talking about.
Hi Kar,If you are right, then the scripture would have said, “as is the heavenly man, so WILL BE those of heaven”.
But that's not what the scripture says, is it? It says, “so ARE those of heaven”.
Think what you want, Karmarie. Everyone here thinks that angels have some kind of body……..except you and JA.
Answer this point for me, because JA was never able to:
If one angel is standing next to God Himself, what is it that designates where the being of the angel ends, and the being of God begins?
mike
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 22 2011,03:32) Mike, God is not tempted by evil and human beings are. I believe you would be better to use the angels as an example in your argument as they were tempted and those who did not fall instead walked by the Spirit.
Hi Kerwin,I haven't the foggiest what you are talking about. I have suggested you post what the other said within your response to what they said.
If you had done that, I would know what post of mine you were answering.
mike
Mike,
Here is the context you requested.
Quote Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 18 2011,19:12)
The belief that Jesus is anything but a human being just as we are and so fully subject to temptation as we are is a destroyer of the belief that a human being can resist the Devil’s snares though faith in God and so his Son.You response:
Quote Leviticus 19:2
“Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: ‘Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy.Kerwin, according to your logic, God must also be nothing but a human being exactly like us. Otherwise we could not be holy as He is holy. To assume that God or Jesus must be exactly like us for us to emulate them and behave how they behave is utter nonsense. It is this utter nonsense that causes non-preexisters to pretend that more than 40 scriptures that clearly speak of the pre-existence of Jesus are really speaking of abstract jibberish.
mike
My answer
Quote God is not tempted by evil and human beings are. I believe you would be better to use the angels as an example in your argument as they were tempted and those who did not fall instead walked by the Spirit. I do not know if angels were tempted like we are and yet did not sin. I do know that scripture states Jesus was and it states that for a purpose. It seem obvious that purpose is to encourage us that we can overcome all sin by putting on the new self created like God in true righteousness and holiness. To do this we must believe it can be done because God will do it for us even as he promised. That is my logic.
Early Jewish/Christian mysticism of the type taught in scripture is not abstract gibberish but a rather a way to make students seek God by his spirit. That is why Jesus taught he was about drinking his blood and eating his flesh.
Any one that seeks God should know that all good things come from above whether they are food you eat, the cloths you wear, or the promised Anointed One. The things that come from below are from the devil. This is why Jesus told those, he stated came from below, that they were the children of the devil.
I hope this is clearer to you. I try to avoid any extra text as it tends to flood a thread and thus make it difficult to carry on a conversation. I will try to remember you require a reminder of the conversation.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 23 2011,13:55) Quote (Baker @ Feb. 21 2011,06:59) Gene! How will you be able to recognize one Spirit from the other, if they don't have some kind of form? 1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Also this Scripture is clear, there are spiritual bodies. So whats the problem?
We are on page 200 and why? is this scripture not enough to convince you and others??Peace and love Irene
Irene………. You recognize one spirit (intellect) from another by their words (expressed intellects) These tell you the Spirit working in them either clean or unclean, all life forms have Spirit. A Spiritual “BODY” Is a physical BODY Kept alive (BY) SPIRIT (intellect) working (IN) (that body). A Spirit and A Body are different things, Spirits do not Have BODIES they exist (IN) bodies they can leave or enter them. GOD is Spirit and He was (IN) Jesus remember, It was not a BODY in Jesus' Body, but GOD the Father who is Spirit was (IN) HIM> Spirit is INTELLECT and Intellects do NOT have BODIES, This is Simple to understand if you think about it. When we are told to try the SPIRITS we are not trying the bodies but the (INTELLECTS) or Spirits coming forth in speech from those BODIES. That is why Jesus said the Words he was telling us was SPIRIT and LIFE.He did not say they were Bodies now did he but Spirit>Because people do not understand what SPIRIT IS, and what SOUL is, and that a “BEING' or “SOUL” has BOTH SPIRIT and a BODY , they get all screwed up. IMO
peace and love……………………………..gene
Gene! This scripture plainly says that1Cr 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
the natural body is what? Is it not Human flesh and blood? And Spiritual body not Spirit? I think so…
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 23 2011,22:21) I will try to remember you require a reminder of the conversation.
Thank you………please do.
And you don't have to post EVERYTHING…………..just the sentence or two you are responding to.
As I understand it, your point is that the only way we have a prayer of becoming “sinless”, is if the only sinless one we know of was “exactly like us”.
And if I'm understanding you correctly, then you haven't answered my point. God told the Israelites to be holy because He is holy. And according to your logic, the only way they could have a prayer at becoming holy is if God Himself was “exactly like them”.
mike
Irene………..You still don not understand what the (IT) IS> It is a Physical BODY> You can't move forward at all if you can't understand this simple thing first. IMO
peace and love………………………………….gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2011,12:06) Answer this point for me, because JA was never able to: If one angel is standing next to God Himself, what is it that designates where the being of the angel ends, and the being of God begins?
mike
But Mike, it doesnt make sense to me. How can you 'stand next to God'.?
God is everywhere,
God is in you.
My son went to church once with his grandma.
She said they were going to see God.
My son said 'why'?
'I thought God lived in us'?Mike, I cannot answer the question you asked, as it is, to me, invalid.
Hi Kar,
There are many scriptures that speak of God being in one place, and not “everywhere”. There's the one where God walks through the Garden of Eden looking for Adam and Eve. Also, He asks Cain where his brother Abel is. In the beginning of Job, the angels gather “in His presence”. There is one in Zechariah (I believe), where particular angels are sent to roam throughout the earth and report back to God about what condition they find the earth in.
And we have the many times that Jesus speaks of “our Father IN HEAVEN”. Once, he even tells of a tax collector praying, and being to ashamed to even raise his eyes to heaven, where God is.
Then we have the many mentions of “godless” people in scripture. If God is “everywhere”, then He is in everyone, and the word “godless” would be a misnomer.
We also have to consider the tabernacle that God had the Israelites build in the desert. No one could enter when the cloud filled the tabernacle, or they would die. If God was “everywhere”, then what was special about the area the cloud filled up? Wouldn't people “everywhere” be dying every second for coming into contact with the presence of God?
Why would Moses have to remove his sandals at the burning bush because the ground THERE was holy………..but he was free to where the sandals anywhere else? What made that particular piece of ground more holy than the rest of the earth at that time?
There are many points like this, Kar…………..I've only mentioned a few. But just answer this one point for now:
Angels are said to both “come into” and “leave from” God's presence in the scriptures. Would the acts of “coming before” and “leaving from before” the presence of God even be necessary if God was “everywhere all the time”? Wouldn't those acts of coming and going be even more unecessary if the angels themselves, like JA has asserted, were also “everywhere all the time”?
peace and love,
mikeMIke……..Answer this, how is God (IN) (ALL) and (THROUGH) (ALL)>? Don't you believe Jesus, when he said the FATHER (WAS IN) HIM> If you understood what spirit is then you could easily understand how GOD the Father was Indeed (IN) Jesus and can be (IN) all things. If you understood what Spirit is you could also understand what Jesus meant when he said God takes note even when a sparrow fall to the ground, how? because the Spirit in it leaves it and its soul falls to the ground and dies. MIKE God is what Life IS he give it and sustains it.If God were to retract his spirit all thing on the flesh, foul, fish, insects, animals and man to would die and cease to live and their souls would parish for ever.
Job 34:14…..> If he set his heart upon man if he (gather) unto himself (HIS) Spirit and (HIS) Breath; verse 15…> (ALL) Flesh shall (PARISH) together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
peace and love………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 27 2011,09:04)
MIke……..Answer this, how is God (IN) (ALL) and (THROUGH) (ALL)>? Don't you believe Jesus, when he said the FATHER (WAS IN) HIM>
I'll tell you what Gene, YOU answer the points I posted for Kar FIRST, and THEN I'll answer your question.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 27 2011,09:04)
If you understood what spirit is…….
If YOU ever get to the point that you're willing to take the words of scripture as they are – without adding your own words into them – then I will be willing to discuss what spirit is with you. Until you are willing to accept that angels ARE spirits and that Jesus IS a spirit, then any discussion we might have about what spirit is would be worthless.mike
ps Learn to use the “bold”, “underline”, and “italic” features this site offers. It is very hard to read your sentences when they are filled with capitalized words within parenthesis. I never know if the words in parenthesis are your own added words or if they are actually in the scripture and you are just trying to emphasize them.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 28 2011,04:26) Hi Kar, There are many scriptures that speak of God being in one place, and not “everywhere”. There's the one where God walks through the Garden of Eden looking for Adam and Eve. Also, He asks Cain where his brother Abel is. In the beginning of Job, the angels gather “in His presence”. There is one in Zechariah (I believe), where particular angels are sent to roam throughout the earth and report back to God about what condition they find the earth in.
And we have the many times that Jesus speaks of “our Father IN HEAVEN”. Once, he even tells of a tax collector praying, and being to ashamed to even raise his eyes to heaven, where God is.
We also have to consider the tabernacle that God had the Israelites build in the desert. No one could enter when the cloud filled the tabernacle, or they would die. If God was “everywhere”, then what was special about the area the cloud filled up? Wouldn't people “everywhere” be dying every second for coming into contact with the presence of God?
Why would Moses have to remove his sandals at the burning bush because the ground THERE was holy………..but he was free to where the sandals anywhere else? What made that particular piece of ground more holy than the rest of the earth at that time?
There are people who believe this was Jesus walking in the garden and conversing.No-one has ever seen God it says. Though it is often worded as such,
Example in Genesis 32:30, Jacob saw God appear as an angel. He never truly saw God.
Or Judges 13:22 Samsons parents were terrified when they realized they had seen God, but, again, they had only seen Him appearing as an angel. (representing him)
John 1:18..'No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Quote Then we have the many mentions of “godless” people in scripture. If God is “everywhere”, then He is in everyone, and the word “godless” would be a misnomer.
Godless people dont have God in them. God is in us by the Holy Spirit.Quote There are many points like this, Kar…………..I've only mentioned a few. But just answer this one point for now: Angels are said to both “come into” and “leave from” God's presence in the scriptures. Would the acts of “coming before” and “leaving from before” the presence of God even be necessary if God was “everywhere all the time”? Wouldn't those acts of coming and going be even more unecessary if the angels themselves, like JA has asserted, were also “everywhere all the time”?
peace and love,
mike
But God is spirit. Theres much we dont understand Mike, which is probably why it says to worship God in spirit.Mike, you cant hear God with your ears or see God with your eyes or feel God with your skin. Its all spiritual.
And that is how God reveals himself to man. You can “hear God” “speak to God” and “feel God”. And God also speaks through the Bible. And you can “see God” because you can see things that happen as evidence. And you can also see the earth and creation and the heavens that are above.
So, God is everywhere by the Holy Spirit. Though God dwells in heaven with the Son…….my view.
Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 27 2011,15:53)
Godless people dont have God in them. God is in us by the Holy Spirit.
Hi Kar,So if God is NOT in some people, then God is NOT “everywhere all the time”, right?
Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 27 2011,15:53)
So, God is everywhere by the Holy Spirit. Though God dwells in heaven with the Son…….my view.
But angels ARE spirit. And if God is “everywhere all the time”, and angels are “everywhere all the time”, then there would be no need for angels to enter or leave the presence of God – because God and the angels would ALWAYS ALREADY BE in each other's presence, right?mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 26 2011,01:25) Irene………..You still don not understand what the (IT) IS> It is a Physical BODY> You can't move forward at all if you can't understand this simple thing first. IMO peace and love………………………………….gene
What are you talking about. There is a natural body(flesh) and there is a Spiritual body. Maybe you don't understand that there is also a Spiritual body which contains a Spirit.
Peace IreneIrene………….Both are (BODIES) ( ALL Bodies contain MATTER) You still do not know what “SPIRITUAL” MEANS it appears. You think Bodies exist as Spirit “Bodies”. Show you proof. The word Spiritual bodies is showing that the(PHYSICAL BODY) is Spiritual sustained and Motivated by the Spirit of GOD. There is NO BODY that exist as SPIRIT, only SPIRITUAL. God who is pure spirit does not have a body he lives (IN) Bodies of his creation, He was truly (IN) Jesus and Is in all those who have His Spirit (intellect) in them.
peace and love………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 02 2011,02:24) Irene………….Both are (BODIES) ( ALL Bodies contain MATTER) You still do not know what “SPIRITUAL” MEANS it appears. You think Bodies exist as Spirit “Bodies”. Show you proof. The word Spiritual bodies is showing that the(PHYSICAL BODY) is Spiritual sustained and Motivated by the Spirit of GOD. There is NO BODY that exist as SPIRIT, only SPIRITUAL. God who is pure spirit does not have a body he lives (IN) Bodies of his creation, He was truly (IN) Jesus and Is in all those who have His Spirit (intellect) in them. peace and love………………………………..gene
Gene!1Cr 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Cr 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Cr 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Now Gene let me ask you a question. With what body was Jesus resurrected? I believe that He is a Spirit now.
1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
Verse 44 tells us that there is a natural body and that there is a spiritual body.
I know you believe that Jesus now has a natural body, flesh? Right? If so do you know what a ransom is?
Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Jesus body stayed in the grave. Now I can't prove this, but I think that God did away with Jesus body, so first it did not decay, and second that no one got hold of it…. That is what a ransom is, instead….He died so we can live. If Jesus would have been resurrected in His flesh body the ransom could not be in effect…..and we all would stay dead…..
Also why would it even compare the two bodies in verse 44, if they would be the same…..two bodies, one natural and one Spiritual. Natural being flesh and blood, and spiritual composing of Spirit……I know what a Spirit is, and I know what flesh is.
Mike asked once if Angels who are Spirit did not have some type of form or body how would you know who what is, or who Jesus is?
Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:This Scripture shows us that God too has some kind of form….and so do all that will be and are Spirit….
You call it what you want to, I believe they are Spiritual bodies…..the name itself shows that.Peace Irene
Irene……..If Jesus body stayed in the grave them why follow him he is still dead and never was resurected. “If Christ be not raised then your Faith is in vain”> So say Paul, Jesus plai nly said His body he was raised with was flesh and bone. You need to go argue with him not Me about that. IMO
peace and love………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 02 2011,10:14) Irene……..If Jesus body stayed in the grave them why follow him he is still dead and never was resurected. “If Christ be not raised then your Faith is in vain”> So say Paul, Jesus plai nly said His body he was raised with was flesh and bone. You need to go argue with him not Me about that. IMO peace and love………………………………….gene
Gene! For pets sake, what is the body? It is dust. At the resurrection, if we are the lucky ones, we will become Spirit, just like Jesus did. Also all the elect who died for Jesus, along with the multitude that stand in front of God's Throne and worship Him day and night will be Spirit also….I thought maybe you don't understand the ransom, and you don't.
Jesus is our ransom, meaning he died the second dead for us.
Read the Scriptures I gave you …Jesus was raised. Who was Jesus? And who are you? Are you your body? Or is the inside of you Gene? ..
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.also when Jesus came from Heaven was He not a Spirit in Heaven? To that He returned. Ask yourself could Jesus be in Heaven seated at the right hand of His Father in the flesh and blood body? I don't think so….NO I KNOW SO…..
Peace IreneTo all,
Quoted:
“I need to ask you, what the “IT” is that Paul is talking about. : the body dies and IT is raised again. Spirit…is what animates a body, so how can the Spirit become a body? It is the Body, the flesh, that is corrupt…it is the flesh that dies…it is the flesh that raised again. The Spirit is returned to God on death and returned to the body on rebirth. The reborn body is cleansed of sin and no longer subject to corruption, it is righteous and Godly, in short, Spiritual…A Spiritual Body.
Paul, at no time in that chapter, makes reference to the Spirit. He says that they who are raised – in the first resurrection – will be become like Jesus, raised in a Spiritual body.
Where does it say that Angels have bodies. ..where do Spirits or Angels come into the picture? NO WHERE…there is not one single verse in the bible that says that the Angels of Heaven have bodies, and why should it…Angels are Spirits…and Spirits…are Immaterial…and immaterial means…without Body… “Spirit: An immaterial, bodiless, entity”.
Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 03 2011,07:05) To all, Quoted:
“I need to ask you, what the “IT” is that Paul is talking about. : the body dies and IT is raised again. Spirit…is what animates a body, so how can the Spirit become a body? It is the Body, the flesh, that is corrupt…it is the flesh that dies…it is the flesh that raised again. The Spirit is returned to God on death and returned to the body on rebirth. The reborn body is cleansed of sin and no longer subject to corruption, it is righteous and Godly, in short, Spiritual…A Spiritual Body.
Paul, at no time in that chapter, makes reference to the Spirit. He says that they who are raised – in the first resurrection – will be become like Jesus, raised in a Spiritual body.
Where does it say that Angels have bodies. ..where do Spirits or Angels come into the picture? NO WHERE…there is not one single verse in the bible that says that the Angels of Heaven have bodies, and why should it…Angels are Spirits…and Spirits…are Immaterial…and immaterial means…without Body… “Spirit: An immaterial, bodiless, entity”.
Karmaria! There are those that rule with Christ in the Millinium that will be Spirits, which is the first resurrection. The meek who will be flesh and blood bodies, will inherit the earth.
Question, can flesh and blood inherit the Kingdom of God?1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
These that stand in front of the Throne of God are Spirit.
Rev 7:9 ¶ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and [about] the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
IT is
1Cr 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
These are Scriptures not my words…
Peace and Love IreneQuote (karmarie @ Mar. 02 2011,14:05) Paul, at no time in that chapter, makes reference to the Spirit. He says that they who are raised – in the first resurrection – will be become like Jesus, raised in a Spiritual body.
Hello Wizard,Actually, what he says is that Jesus NOW is as those of heaven ARE……………not WILL BE.
mike
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