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Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 17 2011,22:26) karmarie(Shimmer), I question the assumption of Justin the Martyr that one of the three angels that visited Abraham near the great trees of Mamre was literally God, Genesis 18:1-5. First God is an invisible spirit which would mean that he would not be seen and second the people of the time period often referred to angels of God as God as they functioned as God’s agents. Those two facts demolish his argument.
If you look to 2 Peter 1:19-21 you will find that the prophets of God are carried along by the Spirit of Christ when they speak his words. In a like manner the Angels are also carried along by the Spirit of Christ and so it can be said that God lives in them and they in God. As such they represent God to men more completely than the prophets of old.
The Spirit of Christ that carried both them and the prophets of old along is the same Spirit that came from above to dwell in Jesus and so made him the Son of God. That Spirit is his guide since it is the God’s Spirit. The Spirit is not Jesus but it is the guide that he chose to live and speak by even though he is a human being just like us and not an angel.
Jesus promises us that if we yearn, even faint to be righteous as God is then will obtain it. He proved that it was so by maintaining that righteousness himself even though he was tempted as we are. We must believe that and every other promise of God. Anything that will damage our belief is from the devil who desires our fall.
Hi Kerwin,The way I see it is, if we try our hardest to be good, if we have God first in our life, if we love the people around us and treat them well, if we live in the world but are not part of it, and if we view Jesus as our light and who we are to learn from, then if I believe Jesus was an Angel before coming here, and you believe something else, and Ed believes something else, and so on, and so on, ok.
Believing is what is important. Holding onto it. Having faith in what we cant see. And learning from each day, especially learning to listen to God, who will lead us, if we let him.
Hi Kerwin,
I agree with almost everything in your post. Why? It is SCRIPTURAL…………..and you don't say anything about us having control over whether we can sin anymore.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 15 2011,21:07)
What version of scripture are you using as in Romans 3:23 the NIV states “…for all have sinned…” in the past tense as you can see.
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,It says “have sinned”, as in past tense. But it says “fall short”, as in present tense.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 15 2011,21:07)
It is true that Jesus atoned for the sins committed by each of his people before they become fully mature in him even as Romans 3:22-25 teaches us.
It doesn't say anything about “before they became fully mature in him” in those verses, Kerwin. What it says is because all have sinned and all FALL short, God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement to JUSTIFY us, regardless of our sins.Kerwin, Christ died to PAY FOR our past, present, and future sins. His death was God's way of cleansing our slate of the sins that God knows we are incapable of stopping.
Look, go ahead and try with all your might to become sin-free. Work hard at it every day. But know that it is not by works that we are saved, but by the undeserved kindness of our God, and the atoning sacrifice of His Son.
Think about that, Kerwin. Will you be better than the scriptures say? Will you be the one who is saved because you willed yourself to never sin again. Will you be the one who has no need of the undeserved kindness of God, because you have made yourself perfect?
What does “undeserved” mean, anyway? It apparently doesn't apply to you, because you DESERVE this kindness of God as payment for all your WORKS in becoming sin-free.
Gene thinks that I'm saying we can go ahead and sin all day long, because we are forgiven. That's NOT what I believe. We are to follow the teachings of Christ and the Laws of our God…………..TO THE BEST OF OUR ABILITY. And when we DO fall short, because each and every one of us will, then we are to confess those sins and ask for the forgiveness afforded only by the UNDESERVED kindness of our God.
I think it's great that you all want to try your best to not sin anymore. I just get irritated when you think you CAN accomplish this because Jesus did, and you are “exactly the same” as Jesus. It makes me angry that you even put yourself in the same playing field as the ONLY begotten Son of the Living God, let alone on the same pedestal.
Jesus is WAY greater than any of us. He has been since before the creation of the world, he was when he was on the earth, and he is right now. Take yourselves down a notch or two and recognize this scriptural truth.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (karmarie @ Feb. 16 2011,07:47) Hi. Topic: Do spirits have bodies? How about god?
So how is this topic going? I havent been following.
Hi Karmarie,I believe that since JA left, we are all in agreement that spirits have bodies.
Except maybe for Gene. While he believes that ANGELS have bodies, he doesn't believe the scripture that says angels ARE spirits.
But if you're still “undecided”, consider ONLY this:
Jesus DOES have a body, and Jesus IS a spirit. Enough said?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 16 2011,10:04) Mike……..Remember when Jesus said those who believe have PASSED from (death) to LIFE. We are being JUDGED WITH FIERY trials (NOW) and disciplined (NOW) if you are a member of the Household of GOD (NOW) and Judgment begins with the HOUSE of GOD. We are the HOUSE , that Building made by GOD (NOW).
I hear you, Gene.But does that mean that everyone who is judged on judgement day will go off into death?
If all the “good” ones are already judged and accepted, then judgement day will only the bad ones going off to everlasting destruction, right?
That doesn't sound right, does it?
mike
Mike Boll,
Thank you for clearing up the point that you meant that “fall short” and not “have sinned”. I am sorry for misunderstanding you on that.
It is true that all have fallen short of the Glory of God as in his glory God has never sinned. Jesus is the radiance of God’s glory for that reason.
You are correct it does not literally state before becoming fully mature but God does state “he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—“. Before what? Other scriptures speak of being made perfect or becoming mature in Christ.
Earlier in chapter 3 of Romans God states “the righteousness of God has been made known” and describes it as “righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe”, Romans 3:21-22. In Romans 1 we are taught that a righteousness that is from faith is revealed in the Gospel. In Ephesians 4:24 and Colossians 3:10 we are instructed to put on that righteousness that is like God’s in true holiness and righteousness. We receive and put it on by faith just as Romans 1 & 3 state. In order to have that faith we must believe it can be done and that God will give it to us as he promised in Matthew 5:6 and elsewhere.
I have sinned and the just deserts of sin are death just as scripture states. God will give me righteousness not because of anything I have done but because of his mercy. In his mercy he chose to create in me a soul that yearns for his kingdom and his righteousness. In his compassion he chose to satisfy that deep craving. He is doing that by leading me to Jesus who will break my chains to sin and set me truly free if I persevere in faith. It is possible for God to overcome but not for any man, even Jesus. This is why Jesus in his wisdom denied his self will and submitted himself to God’s will. He thus taught us how to obtain the righteousness that is like God’s by his words and actions.
Believe that God is doing and will continue to do as he has promised and is doing it through his Son, the man Jesus, the Anointed.
Shimmer,
I am confident that if we believe what God promised then we will receive it. God promised that we would be filled with a righteousness that is like his if we yearn for his kingdom and his righteousness. He did not promise that we would do it be our efforts but rather that he would do it by his, if we believe that Jesus is the Anointed and so do all Jesus teaches us. In other words it is not me striving by my own works to be righteous, just like Lazarus did not strive by his own works to be resurrected from death; instead it is God doing his work in my flesh that will result in me rejecting sin and doing all that is right. Have confidence in God for even though it impossible for you it is possible for God. If you choose to believe then the fruits of your belief will become evident as you will mature in Christ because God does what he promises for those who persevere in the faith.
The belief that Jesus is anything but a human being just as we are and so fully subject to temptation as we are is a destroyer of the belief that a human being can resist the Devil’s snares though faith in God and so his Son.
Paul teaches us in Romans that in the gospel a righteousness that is by faith is revealed to those who believe Jesus is king of everything and so obey all his teachings. Have courage and believe as God does as he promises even though you do not see the results immediately. Miracles do happen.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 18 2011,13:30) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 16 2011,10:04) Mike……..Remember when Jesus said those who believe have PASSED from (death) to LIFE. We are being JUDGED WITH FIERY trials (NOW) and disciplined (NOW) if you are a member of the Household of GOD (NOW) and Judgment begins with the HOUSE of GOD. We are the HOUSE , that Building made by GOD (NOW).
I hear you, Gene.But does that mean that everyone who is judged on judgement day will go off into death?
If all the “good” ones are already judged and accepted, then judgement day will only the bad ones going off to everlasting destruction, right?
That doesn't sound right, does it?
mike
Mike…….Where have i ever said that at, No those Judged on “JUDGMENT” DAY, WILL BE CAST INTO FIERY TRIALS IF they need to, where does it say they will die. When scripture speaks of the Second Death it is referring to those who have not put themselves to death in this life , they will be raised and have to in the next life put themselves to death. There is only ONE WILL that will be done and the is the WILL of GOD all other Wills will be put to Death, either in this life or the life to come, and what ever it takes to destory those will will be the Fiery Trials needed. In this life all who are called by GOD are cast into these fiery trials Now and we are being Judged Now and will not come into the Judgment with the rest of Mankind later because we are having our Judgment now.“NOW CONCERNING THIS FIERY TRIAL WHICH HAS TRIED YOU AS IF SOME STRANGE THING HAS HAPPENED UNTO YOU”.Peter tells us. Mike Judgment is on the house of GOD (NOW)>The rest later.,
peace and love………………………….gene
Hi Gene,
Acts 17:31
For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed.Romans 2:16
This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.2 Timothy 4:1
In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead2 Timothy 4:8
Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing1 Peter 4:5
But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.Jude 1:14;15
“See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness,Revelation 6:10
They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”Revelation 20:12-13
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
All these scriptures and more lead me to believe in A DAY of judgement, when both the living AND the dead will be judged.
Revelation 20:15
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.Don't you believe that the wicked will be destroyed?
mike
Hi all. Interesting comments thank you. But no one answered my question;
When you go up to heaven to be with God….will you be able to hear, see, smell, taste, speak?
The way I see it is; spirit/soul doesnt have the same as we have, it doesn't have nerves to feel pain, doesn't have eyes as we have to see and doesn't have ears as we have to hear. It doesn't have a body, and is much different. The spiritual afterlife for believers is free of all the earthly restraints we now have. So a spiritual afterlife is one of only thought and reason and feelings example the ability to feel love, and God is love. It is up higher than here, but isnt so much a place, or if it is then its only seconds away.
Therefore it doesnt have a body as we have.
(Do spirits have bodies…..no).
Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 20 2011,14:35) Hi all. Interesting comments thank you. But no one answered my question; When you go up to heaven to be with God….will you be able to hear, see, smell, taste, speak?
The way I see it is; spirit/soul doesnt have the same as we have, it doesn't have nerves to feel pain, doesn't have eyes as we have to see and doesn't have ears as we have to hear. It doesn't have a body, and is much different. The spiritual afterlife for believers is free of all the earthly restraints we now have. So a spiritual afterlife is one of only thought and reason and feelings example the ability to feel love, and God is love. It is up higher than here, but isnt so much a place, or if it is then its only seconds away.
Therefore it doesnt have a body as we have.
(Do spirits have bodies…..no).
KarmariePs 94:9 Does he who implanted the ear not hear?
Does he who formed the eye not see?
Ps 95:7 for he is our God
and we are the people of his pasture,
the flock under his care.
Today, if you hear his voice,
Ps 102:1 Hear my prayer, O LORD?
let my cry for help come to you.whatever God as created also he possess.
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 18 2011,19:12)
The belief that Jesus is anything but a human being just as we are and so fully subject to temptation as we are is a destroyer of the belief that a human being can resist the Devil’s snares though faith in God and so his Son.Leviticus 19:2
“Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: ‘Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy.Kerwin, according to your logic, God must also be nothing but a human being exactly like us. Otherwise we could not be holy as He is holy. To assume that God or Jesus must be exactly like us for us to emulate them and behave how they behave is utter nonsense. It is this utter nonsense that causes non-preexisters to pretend that more than 40 scriptures that clearly speak of the pre-existence of Jesus are really speaking of abstract jibberish.
mike
And Terrarica, there is a spiritual eye and spiritual ear. Its different, I believe. God is invisible spirit and he who worships must worship in spirit and truth. Example when you pray you do not see God with your physical eyes but spiritual eyes, and you dont hear God with your physical ears (you dont hear an audible voice) but the voice within, which is different. And you dont feel God with your physical self but with your inner feelings. This is what I believe. Yes we have our physical bodies here but the earth is a place, where we dwell now.
Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 20 2011,07:35) Hi all. Interesting comments thank you. But no one answered my question; When you go up to heaven to be with God….will you be able to hear, see, smell, taste, speak?
Hi Karmarie,You didn't answer my point, either. Jesus IS a spirit. And Jesus has a spiritual body “like those of heaven” – according to 1 Cor 1:15.
As far as your question, it asks merely for speculation, because I don't know of anything scripture clearly says about such matters.
But consider three things:
1. Our senses are really electric impulses within our brain. Scientist can manipulate our brains to “smell” or “hear” or “taste” or “feel” something by conducting electricity to certain nerve centers. And we can “see” many things while we dream with eyes closed.
2. Secondly, scripture tells of angels singing before YHVH day and night. What's the sense of that if no one can “hear” them sing? And how can they “sing” without “speaking”? Also, God speaks of the Israelite sacrifices of fat and incense being a “soothing aroma” for Him, implying He can “smell”.
3. And finally, our senses are what makes our lives enjoyable. Why would God deprive His sons in heaven of sights and smells and warm breezes, etc?
I agree with you that our bodies inhibit us, and those of heaven who have spiritual bodies can experience more freedom in many areas that we can – because of the limits of our bodies. t8 has suggested that our bodies are a “filter”, and I agree that it seems logical and right. But if even with our “filtering” bodies, we can smell a beautiful rose in bloom, I find it hard to imagine that God's angels cannot.
peace and love to you and the wizard,
mikeQuote (karmarie @ Feb. 20 2011,17:05) And Terrarica, there is a spiritual eye and spiritual ear. Its different, I believe. God is invisible spirit and he who worships must worship in spirit and truth. Example when you pray you do not see God with your physical eyes but spiritual eyes, and you dont hear God with your physical ears (you dont hear an audible voice) but the voice within, which is different. And you dont feel God with your physical self but with your inner feelings. This is what I believe. Yes we have our physical bodies here but the earth is a place, where we dwell now.
karmarieit does not matter how God can hear all of us,or see all of us.
what is said is what he create he also have,
in witch way it is different that seems to be seen yet,
it is our body that was created not Gods,
but it would be true to think if we have a body God also have one but absolutely not the same.
it is scriptural that some of us will be in heaven (144k)but most of us will be on earth in a flesh body but perfect .
Pierre
Mike. Anything spoken here with regards to the body or the spiritual side of things and the afterlife are open to ones own understanding. Unless one can say they have been there and experienced it. One thing I know, there are no words to explain it. Spiritual vision is not like the vision we have here, for example. Its not that you cant see, its just a different way of seeing, and it cant be explained with words.
It doesnt mean we have a body like we have here.
Think about this: yes we can smell a rose, and so on. But, if God has made this place so good, imagine what the next will be like. 1 Corin 2:9…'As it is written, “Things which an eye didn't see, and an ear didn't hear, which didn't enter into the heart of man, these God has prepared for those who love him.”
Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 20 2011,10:43) Think about this: yes we can smell a rose, and so on. But, if God has made this place so good, imagine what the next will be like. 1 Corin 2:9…'As it is written, “Things which an eye didn't see, and an ear didn't hear, which didn't enter into the heart of man, these God has prepared for those who love him.
Hi Kar,I agree the next place will “leave this place in the dust”.
You quoted one of my favorite “dare to believe” scriptures. My heart melts just thinking of things to come.But that doesn't change my opinion that angels can also smell the roses on earth and enjoy all of the earth's wonders.
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
This says that there are spiritual bodies as well as natural bodies. It says that as was the earthly man (Adam), so are those of earth. It further says that as IS the heavenly man (Jesus), so ARE those of heaven.
We KNOW from scripture that Jesus DOES have a glorious body and that he IS a spirit.
And this above scripture says that as is Jesus, so are those of heaven. Kar, please explain what YOU (JA) think this scripture says, if not what I just explained.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 20 2011,14:30) But that doesn't change my opinion that angels can also smell the roses on earth and enjoy all of the earth's wonders.
The way I see it is, spiritual can become visible here, but not elsewhere. But I cant explain it. It's like I guess what Jay say's about different dimensions,Like putting your hand into something such as water, it's just different. Like going from one to another. Something like that.
Quote 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
This says that there are spiritual bodies as well as natural bodies. It says that as was the earthly man (Adam), so are those of earth. It further says that as IS the heavenly man (Jesus), so ARE those of heaven.
And this above scripture says that as is Jesus, so are those of heaven. Kar, please explain what YOU (JA) think this scripture says, if not what I just explained.
Mike, its me not Jay.
I learnt these things years ago. But only just started thinking of it again recently.
And I still have more thinking to do, when it comes to answering your question on those verses.
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