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Mike Boll,
I agree that we inherit sin but it comes from both the mother and father since both Eve and Adam sinned. Adam can be said to have the greater responsibility as the one in authority but that does not exonerate Eve of her actions. Why I say that the sinful spirit, aka the inclination to sin, is inherited from both sides is because both men and women have the sinful nature. Greek thought as expressed in their language is that the flesh is nature. Thus we are instruction to live by the spirit of righteousness and instead of the natural spirit of man, also known as man’s inclination to do evil.
I agree with Paul that those that have not yet entered the new covenant are slaves to sin just as he describes in Romans 7 but I also agree with them that they are set free by Jesus at baptism as God buries the old man and gives the new man life just as he also teaches in Romans 6:1-18. This is why all, excepting Jesus, fall short of the glory of God before they are completely mature in Christ and so set free from being a slave to sin even as Jesus teaches us in John 8:31-36. So Paul teaches true when he said death enters through Adam, as all men, excepting Jesus, are subject to sin through him but life comes through Christ who breaks those chains that bind us and so sets us free.
According to the genealogy of Jesus he is a son of David, who is himself a son of Adam. He just did not get a genetic component from a male parent as his only physical parent is Mary a descendant of both David and Adam, Matthew 1:1-16 and Luke 3:23-38. He inherited the inclination to sin from Mary but he received the Holy Spirit from God. In that way he came from above and not below as do humans born of women, even John the Baptist. Those born of the new covenant are not considered to be born of women, Matthew 11:11 and Luke 7:28.
My body will perish, either in death or in transformation, because it was corrupted by sin even as all creation has been. Never the less it is my hope to continue to live because I obey the teachings of the spirit of Christ.
We cannot avoid sin but God can and does it using our body even as he promises us if we like Abraham believe, Matthew 5:6. It is that faith that must grow in us from a small seed to a bush on which birds of the air perch and make music.
Some References:
Romans 6:1-18:(NIV)
1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Matthew 11:11(NIV)
Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Luke 7:28(NIV)
I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”
John 8:31-36(NIV)
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”
34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 08 2011,14:55) MIke…………..Wrong, Jesus was a son of ADAM and as i recall he did not sin, But see how your confusion causes you not to even believe Jesus was the Son of Adam and Yet without sin. Mike it say sin entered into the WORLD through ADAM, it does not say we inherited any sin from ADAM, that is you conjecture of what is being said, while sin did after Adam then existed in the world and infected all men except Jesus. That is a far cry from saying we (INHERITED SIN) From ADAM . Every man shall give an account of himself before God we can't blame it on ADAM. peace and love…………………………………gene
Hi brother Gene,
Original Sin is another myth of Christianity which is again not supported by Hebrew Bible. Let brother Mike see my thread on “Myth of Original sin and Vicarious atonement”.Thanks and peace to you
AdamQuote (kerwin @ Feb. 08 2011,16:05) Romans 6:1-18:(NIV) 1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Kerwin………….I would like to go into these scriptures with you and Start a thread on them and also how you see them tie in with some other scriptures likeHeb 10:26………> For if we sin willfully after that we have recieved the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, 27…> But a certain fearful looking for of judgement, which shall devour the adversaries or (satans).
There is also more but wont mention them here, look for a new thread called, ( Dying with Christ). Would like you involved in this i think we can all learn from it brother. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………….gene
Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 08 2011,11:48) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 08 2011,14:55) MIke…………..Wrong, Jesus was a son of ADAM and as i recall he did not sin, But see how your confusion causes you not to even believe Jesus was the Son of Adam and Yet without sin. Mike it say sin entered into the WORLD through ADAM, it does not say we inherited any sin from ADAM, that is you conjecture of what is being said, while sin did after Adam then existed in the world and infected all men except Jesus. That is a far cry from saying we (INHERITED SIN) From ADAM . Every man shall give an account of himself before God we can't blame it on ADAM. peace and love…………………………………gene
Hi brother Gene,
Original Sin is another myth of Christianity which is again not supported by Hebrew Bible. Let brother Mike see my thread on “Myth of Original sin and Vicarious atonement”.Thanks and peace to you
Adam
Adam.Is the tenet of Origional Sin that we inherited Adam's sin as opposed to inheriting the inclination to do evil?
Gene,
Sounds good. I also have a thread on the promised of the new covenant in the scripture/biblical forum.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 09 2011,15:12) Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 08 2011,11:48) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 08 2011,14:55) MIke…………..Wrong, Jesus was a son of ADAM and as i recall he did not sin, But see how your confusion causes you not to even believe Jesus was the Son of Adam and Yet without sin. Mike it say sin entered into the WORLD through ADAM, it does not say we inherited any sin from ADAM, that is you conjecture of what is being said, while sin did after Adam then existed in the world and infected all men except Jesus. That is a far cry from saying we (INHERITED SIN) From ADAM . Every man shall give an account of himself before God we can't blame it on ADAM. peace and love…………………………………gene
Hi brother Gene,
Original Sin is another myth of Christianity which is again not supported by Hebrew Bible. Let brother Mike see my thread on “Myth of Original sin and Vicarious atonement”.Thanks and peace to you
Adam
Adam.Is the tenet of Origional Sin that we inherited Adam's sin as opposed to inheriting the inclination to do evil?
Hi brother Kerwin,
Yes you are right. But I still insist that Adamic sin has nothing to do with even with the “inclination to sin” why because it was there with Adam even before he disobeyed God. Eve was having it before she transgressed the commandment of God. Please see Jewish view on the 'Myth of Original Sin' in the other thread.Thanks and peace to you
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ Feb. 09 2011,16:13) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 09 2011,15:12) Quote (gollamudi @ Feb. 08 2011,11:48) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 08 2011,14:55) MIke…………..Wrong, Jesus was a son of ADAM and as i recall he did not sin, But see how your confusion causes you not to even believe Jesus was the Son of Adam and Yet without sin. Mike it say sin entered into the WORLD through ADAM, it does not say we inherited any sin from ADAM, that is you conjecture of what is being said, while sin did after Adam then existed in the world and infected all men except Jesus. That is a far cry from saying we (INHERITED SIN) From ADAM . Every man shall give an account of himself before God we can't blame it on ADAM. peace and love…………………………………gene
Hi brother Gene,
Original Sin is another myth of Christianity which is again not supported by Hebrew Bible. Let brother Mike see my thread on “Myth of Original sin and Vicarious atonement”.Thanks and peace to you
Adam
Adam.Is the tenet of Origional Sin that we inherited Adam's sin as opposed to inheriting the inclination to do evil?
Hi brother Kerwin,
Yes you are right. But I still insist that Adamic sin has nothing to do with even with the “inclination to sin” why because it was there with Adam even before he disobeyed God. Eve was having it before she transgressed the commandment of God. Please see Jewish view on the 'Myth of Original Sin' in the other thread.Thanks and peace to you
Adam
Adam! The Catholic Church teaches that we are born in original sin. I believe because of Adams Sin, we all have to die. But because Jesus set us free from that dead sentense we will be resurrected from the dead. In that sense the Catholic Church is right. It is because of that sin, that now we die…..but once we have immortality we will never die again….just like Christ….1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Peace and Love Irene
Adam,
I am currently looking into the common Jewish version of the Origional Sin tenet, though they do not call it that. I have touched on it in the Dying with Christ thread on this forum. I may also write what I learn in your thread about the Origional Sin tenet.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 08 2011,14:55) That is a far cry from saying we (INHERITED SIN) From ADAM . Every man shall give an account of himself before God we can't blame it on ADAM.
You're doing it again, Gene.Why would you think that I thought we all have a free pass on sinning because we can't help it? When did I ever give you the impression that we aren't accountable for out own actions? When did I say we could blame it on Adam?
I keep telling you that I HATE it when you do this. PLEASE stop. PLEASE only address what we DO say, NOT what YOU imagine we mean by what we say, okay? Please, brother?
To all of you: Unlike Adam, I DO believe the NT scriptures to be just as inspired of God as the OT scriptures. And according to Jewish culture, it was people's fathers who passed on anything to them. The maternal heritage was not brought up often and didn't amount to anything in their minds.
Kerwin, I believe we discussed this before, and I posted this info for you:
But why does not Luke name Mary, and why pass immediately from Jesus to His grandfather? Ancient sentiment did not comport with the mention of the mother as the genealogical link. Among the Greeks a man was the son of his father, not of his mother; and among the Jews the adage was: ‘Genus matris non vocatur genus [“The descendant of the mother is not called (her) descendant”]’ (‘Baba bathra,’ 110, a).”—Commentary on Luke, 1981, p. 129.
This is why sin entered into us from ONE MAN, not TWO humans. We inherited sin from Adam ALONE, and along with that sin, death. Eve was never Adam's equal. She was a possession of his. Women were never equal to men anywhere in scripture. Paul taught:
4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head…….
7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.
Kerwin, I guess I don't understand why you still say this to me:
Quote I agree that we inherit sin but it comes from both the mother and father since both Eve and Adam sinned. Just remember to keep your OWN modern day thoughts in second place to what the scriptures actually say. And they say that sin came into the world through ONE MAN. Not a man AND a woman. And since sin came to us all through our common human FATHER, and Jesus didn't have this FATHER, he was born under the law, but not into the sin we are all born into. He didn't inherit sin from Adam, as we all do.
Adam, I might look at your Original Sin thread, when I get the time. I'm not so much interested in Jewish beliefs as much as I am with the teachings of the entire scriptures.
Guys, just try to remember that you cannot ever stop sinning. Each of you do it every single day in one way or another………..we all do. Remember that Jesus died to COVER OVER those sins that we can't help but to commit. And we are to try our best to live sin-free lives, but the sins that we inevitably will commit despite our best efforts, have been atoned for by our wonderful Lord, thanks to and glory to God our Father.
peace and love to all of you,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2011,13:56) Guys, just try to remember that you cannot ever stop sinning. mike
Hi Mike,This is NOT true! Here is Scriptural backing…
2Tm.3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying
the power (of perfection) thereof: from such turn away.
1John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but
he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.Ephesians 4:13-14 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth
be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine,
by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;Heb.7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Heb.11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Matt.5:48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2011,13:56) Guys, just try to remember that you cannot ever stop sinning. mike
Hi Mike,The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.Col.2:20-22 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world,
why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
(Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish
with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Mike……….So sin entered into the World through Adam, what does that have to do with Us inheriting any sin (FROM) ADAM?>
peace and love………………………………….gene
Mike,
I do acknowledge that Adam, as the one in authority, bears a greater guilt for sin entering the world than does Eve who was subject to him. Never the less we are taught that both Adam and Eve and their decendents were punished by God and that men inherit the punishment from Adam as woman inherit theirs from Eve. Woman after all suffer the pain of child birth to this day.
I do not believe we inherit guilt for Adam's sin but rather that we inherit subjectation to the evil impulse of our nature. That it scripture means that those who have not yet entered the new covenant are slaves to sin. It is that slavery Jesus sets us free from.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 12 2011,15:25) Mike, I do acknowledge that Adam, as the one in authority, bears a greater guilt for sin entering the world than does Eve who was subject to him. Never the less we are taught that both Adam and Eve and their decendents were punished by God and that men inherit the punishment from Adam as woman inherit theirs from Eve. Woman after all suffer the pain of child birth to this day.
I do not believe we inherit guilt for Adam's sin but rather that we inherit subjectation to the evil impulse of our nature. That it scripture means that those who have not yet entered the new covenant are slaves to sin. It is that slavery Jesus sets us free from.
Hi brother Kerwin,
You are right in saying that we have not inherited any guilt of Adam and Eve but the inclinations to do good and evil as man was created with them originally. But I can't agree with you on stating that these inclinations are due to the Fall of man and also about the slavery or total depravity which was coined by Augustine. This is purely the Christian interpretation.Thanks and peace to you
AdamAdam.
The idea of evil as total depravity is a Western conceptl The Jews view sin more as being self centered. That is why Jesus taught us to deny ourselfs and follow him.
If you are correct then is sounds as if Augustine was looking as slavery to sin from worldly eyes.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 12 2011,20:13) Adam. The idea of evil as total depravity is a Western conceptl The Jews view sin more as being self centered. That is why Jesus taught us to deny ourselfs and follow him.
If you are correct then is sounds as if Augustine was looking as slavery to sin from worldly eyes.
Thanks for that agreement brother Kerwin.Adam………You are right because sin is sin and we all have a propensity to sin, because we are exposed to it in this earth at a very young and impressionable age. John said, “ALL THAT IS IN THE WORLD THE LUST OF THE EYES AND THE LUST OF THE FLESH AND THE PRIDE OF LIFE ARE (FROM) THE WORLD. And even if Adam introduced it into the world, still each and everyone will give an account of himself before GOD. I believe Jesus did not die (FOR) our sin but BECAUSE of the death penalty attached to them by GOD. WE all know GOD can not lie and he said the Soul that Sins shall PARISH and we also know all have sinned (except Jesus). Now there is no way we can ever live if God keep his word and extracts it on us, because we all have sinned and so all must die or parish. We are left without branch or root in a state of eternal non existence. (BUT) according to the LAW there was a way provided for us and that was the KINSMAN REDEEMER found in the law. This kinsmen redeemer could Pay the Price required HIMSELF and Jesus who never sinned and therefore did not have to die could pay our debt, life for life , his life for our life and in that way according to the LAW remove the death penalty sentence pronounced on us who sin by GOD Himself and we all know GOD does not lie. Jesus work within the confines of the LAW of GOD and Paid our price. “FOR YOU HAVE BEEN PURCHASED WITH A PRICE”> Now with that said does that mean we then can continue to sin No God forbid, What happens now if through the know of the truth and your acceptance of the Price paid for you you continue to sin willfully then there remains no more sacrifice for it, but certain fiery judgments of God. It is one thing to say Jesus died for our death penalty and quite another to say he died for our present and future sins . If we think he died for our present and future sin that is doing despite to the grace of GOD, a very dangerous position to be in IMO. We must with the help and Spirit of God put all sin out of our lives (NOW) or we will be dealt servilely with IMO>
Peace and love to you and yours……………………………………..gene
Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 12 2011,14:26) Hi Mike, This is NOT true! Here is Scriptural backing…
1John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but
he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Hi Ed,Only one of the scriptures you listed even suggests that we have a choice of not sinning…………and that's 1 John 5:18.
But there are many possible translations and meanings of this verse. NETNotes lists 5 of them, and I think the following makes the most sense:
“The One fathered by God [Jesus] protects him [the Christian].” This is a popular interpretation, and is certainly possible grammatically.
So understanding that the above is what is being taught, I understand the verse like this:
We know that the one who was born of God doesn't sin, and he who was begotten of God protects us from the wicked one.
Consider this Ed: Angels are born of God and called “the sons of God”. Yet even angels have to opportunity to sin, as proved by Satan and the third of the angels who followed him.
And “being made perfect” doesn't mean losing the option of sinning. God wants children that follow Him and do what's right because they WANT TO, not because they have no choice in the matter at all.
Anyone whose will is free will always have the option to sin or go against God and His Laws…………even Jesus.
What do you think the sacrifices in the desert and after the exodus were all about? Every single person born of Adam sinned. The sacrifices were God's way of “overlooking” those sins as if they never happened because they had been atoned for in His eyes. And Jesus was God's once for all time sacrifice for our behalf, so that even though we all would still sin, believing in Jesus, confessing those sins, and asking for forgiveness for them wipes those sin out from God's eyes as they happen.
peace and love,
mike
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