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Quote (942767 @ May 07 2012,07:05) Quote (kerwin @ May 07 2012,11:41) Quote (942767 @ May 07 2012,06:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 07 2012,05:05) Hi 94,
Jesus did not put it that way.
But believe what you will.
Hi Nick:Is the following a true statement?
No, man except Jesus has ascended into heaven from the dead.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,Jesus was yet in his mortal body when he stated those words; so he was not speaking of his death which would come later; instead of previous.
Hi Kerwin:Jesus was in heaven in the spirit, but he says “no man” has ascended, and therefore, I believe that he was speaking of his ascension into heaven after his resurrection.
Also, that scripture continues with “and Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness so must the Son of man be lifted up”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,I see no evidence to support the hypothesis Jesus was speaking from a time frame in the future of the one he was at. He has not yet physically descended from heaven.
Spiritually he had both descended, ascended, as well as was still in heaven at that time.
Enoch and Elijah physically ascended to heaven so that verse does not apply to them.
Jesus' spiritual origins, destination, and location is more important to Yawheh than his physical ones.
Pierre,
Quote TRANSLATED = b. To convey to heaven without death. SCRIPTURES SAYS ;;Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death;
SO IT SHOULD BE HE WAS TRANSLATED NOT TO SEE DEAD ,BUT DIED ,
That passage does not say what you hope it should state. The writer of Scripture was clearly interpreting the generations of Seth as regards Enoch in Genesis 5.
The writer interpreted by inference that the words “he was not” meant “he was not found”.
The writer interpreting the reason he was taken by God is to reward him so he would not see death. The evidence of this are, unlike with Enoch, the other generations Seth were said to either have experienced death or be still living their mortal lives. Genesis does state the years of Enoch’s mortal life before he was taken.
He was rewarded because he walked with God.
Rejoice, for God uses Enoch as a symbol that those whom persist in walking with him will be awarded with and inheritance in his kingdom.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 08 2012,13:12) Any proof KW?
Nick,The words themselves are the evidence for those that can understand them.
The words show that Jesus is the speaking and that he is speaking to Nicodemus.
He clearly states that no one ascended to heaven in the past but him. At the time he spoke to Nicodemus he had not yet died; and so had not yet physically ascended to heaven. Since he had not yet physically ascended to heaven then it is either a prophecy or he is not speaking about his physical self.
There is no evidence it is a prophecy and he was just speaking to Nicodemus about spiritual births.
The difference is thinking about Jesus in the way of the flesh or the way of the Spirit.
Note: added “for those” in my first sentence to add clarity.
To All…………Death is an ACT , there is an Act of dying that takes place when men die, Enoch was spared that. His Spirit was simply removed from his body instantly, so He did not taste or “EXPERIENCE” dying. for they (the dying) say our hope is perished our bone are dry. Jesus said when he was dying my God ,my God have you forsaken me? Death has a sense of complete loss attached to it . Enoch was spared that sense of loss of life. He still died and awaiting the resurrection .
As far as those under that Alter of God , why are they under the alter if they are still alive and have “BEING” they would be above or on the same level as it. Bottom line is as it say 'ALL” these have not yet attained the promise but “DIED” in HOPE and for GOD has provided something better for us that these do not inherit the promise without us. Scripture also say for death has passed unto “ALL” men. None have risen form the dead but Jesus He is THE FIRST BORN INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD FROM “ALL” CREATION TO ETERNAL LIFE. After him comes the first fruits at the sound of the trump of God and the dead in Christ will rise first and meet the Lord Jesus in the air and descend with him . For i foresaw the Lord descend from Mount Paron with ten thousands of his saints to execute judgement on the earth and to convience all the ungodly of their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed That does not take place until the first general resurrection, of all that have died in GOD and his Christ.
There are tons of “speculations” but only Jesus is raised from the dead and now sits at the right hand of GOD in Heaven all other are still 'DEAD” and will remain that way until the resurrection that will witness the redemption of their “BODIES” all other hypotheses are just pure “SPECULATIONS” IMO.
peace and love to you all…………………………………………………..gene
Quote (kerwin @ May 09 2012,01:13) Pierre, Quote TRANSLATED = b. To convey to heaven without death. SCRIPTURES SAYS ;;Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death;
SO IT SHOULD BE HE WAS TRANSLATED NOT TO SEE DEAD ,BUT DIED ,
That passage does not say what you hope it should state. The writer of Scripture was clearly interpreting the generations of Seth as regards Enoch in Genesis 5.
The writer interpreted by inference that the words “he was not” meant “he was not found”.
The writer interpreting the reason he was taken by God is to reward him so he would not see death. The evidence of this are, unlike with Enoch, the other generations Seth were said to either have experienced death or be still living their mortal lives. Genesis does state the years of Enoch’s mortal life before he was taken.
He was rewarded because he walked with God.
Rejoice, for God uses Enoch as a symbol that those whom persist in walking with him will be awarded with and inheritance in his kingdom.
Kyou do not understand ,because you are not looking at all scriptures ,Col 1;15-20 and 1Cor15,and ….
and was Enoch spared the act OF NOT SEEING DEAD OR WAS IT DEAD IT SELF
it says SO HE DID NOT SEE DEAD ,right
Gene;
Quote To All…………Death is an ACT , there is an Act of dying that takes place when men die, Enoch was spared that. His Spirit was simply removed from his body instantly, so He did not taste or “EXPERIENCE” dying. For they (the dying) say our hope is perished our bone are dry. Jesus said when he was dying my God, my God have you forsaken me? Death has a sense of complete loss attached to it . Enoch was spared that sense of loss of life. He still died and awaiting the resurrection. That explanation does not meet up Scripture that makes it clear that instead of being dead Enoch was not found because he was taken by God.
About Adam Scripture states:
Genesis 5
King James Version (KJV)5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
But about Enoch it states:
Genesis 5
King James Version (KJV)23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.And about the other generations it states:
Genesis 5
King James Version (KJV)8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
…
11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.
….
14 And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.
…
17 And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.
…
20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
…
27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
…
31 And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.
About Noah and his sons who were still living their mortal lives that line is not written.
Where do you read that Scripture states “and he died” about Enoch? It is not written.
T;
It is not written in Genesis 5 about Enoch, “and he died”. Why do you seek to add it.
Enoch was not found because he; both body and soul; was taken by God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 09 2012,07:59) Hi KW,
Where to?
Bodies are not kept
Nick;Scripture states Enoch was not found; do you think it is speaking of his soul or his body?
I know that when a man dies and their souls depart their body is found and not their soul.
Neither of them were found with Enoch because God took them both.
Why did God take Enoch's body as well as his soul?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 08 2012,15:00) Hi 94,
So he went to the same place but bypassed death.
Yes, the scripture states of Enoch that he was translated that he should not taste death. The scripture does not say where God took him, but of Elijah, the scripture states that he went up to heaven in a whirlwind.When the Lord comes for the church, there will be those who are alive who will not die a physical death but they will also be translated:
Quote 1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Nick Hassan @ May 09 2012,08:28) Hi KW,
The original body of Jesus will not be found now either.
And nor will that of Elijah
Nick;It is true that Scripture does state Enoch and Elijah were not found and that the grave of Mosses was not found. We know that Jesus' body and soul is not found in this world as he has ascended to mediate the new covenant at his Father's and our Father's side.
Quote (kerwin @ May 08 2012,17:30) Quote (942767 @ May 07 2012,07:05) Quote (kerwin @ May 07 2012,11:41) Quote (942767 @ May 07 2012,06:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 07 2012,05:05) Hi 94,
Jesus did not put it that way.
But believe what you will.
Hi Nick:Is the following a true statement?
No, man except Jesus has ascended into heaven from the dead.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,Jesus was yet in his mortal body when he stated those words; so he was not speaking of his death which would come later; instead of previous.
Hi Kerwin:Jesus was in heaven in the spirit, but he says “no man” has ascended, and therefore, I believe that he was speaking of his ascension into heaven after his resurrection.
Also, that scripture continues with “and Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness so must the Son of man be lifted up”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,I see no evidence to support the hypothesis Jesus was speaking from a time frame in the future of the one he was at. He has not yet physically descended from heaven.
Spiritually he had both descended, ascended, as well as was still in heaven at that time.
Enoch and Elijah physically ascended to heaven so that verse does not apply to them.
Jesus' spiritual origins, destination, and location is more important to Yawheh than his physical ones.
Hi Kerwin:The Amplified bible is the closest to the way that I understand these scriptures. Jesus was speaking of being born again in the scriptures preceeding the scriptures that we are discussing.
Of course, he had descended from heaven.
Quote Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
And he was in heaven in the Spirit:
Quote Jhn 17:20 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
But although he had been talking to Nicodemus about being born again, he had not at this time been born again from the dead.
Quote Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. Love in Christ,
MartyMarty,
Your words sound like what I wrote as the application of reason driven by the Spirit; teaches us that Jesus spiritually ascended; descended; and was currently in heaven in heaven during the days of his mortality.
He pioneered this for us; that we may follow through faith.
It is not a Scripture that teaches us that Enoch; Elijah; or even Mosses were not taken up into heaven.
Quote (kerwin @ May 09 2012,14:19) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 09 2012,08:28) Hi KW,
The original body of Jesus will not be found now either.
And nor will that of Elijah
Nick;It is true that Scripture does state Enoch and Elijah were not found and that the grave of Mosses was not found. We know that Jesus' body and soul is not found in this world as he has ascended to mediate the new covenant at his Father's and our Father's side.
Hi KW,
If he shows us the way he now has a heavenly body not a flesh one.Hi,
Jn3
“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”The way this would have been read in the greek may have been different.
For the greek scholars must it mean the Son of man HAS ALREADY ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 09 2012,12:53) Quote (kerwin @ May 09 2012,14:19) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 09 2012,08:28) Hi KW,
The original body of Jesus will not be found now either.
And nor will that of Elijah
Nick;It is true that Scripture does state Enoch and Elijah were not found and that the grave of Mosses was not found. We know that Jesus' body and soul is not found in this world as he has ascended to mediate the new covenant at his Father's and our Father's side.
Hi KW,
If he shows us the way he now has a heavenly body not a flesh one.
Nick,All it reveals is that Jesus is not on earth.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 09 2012,14:47) Hi,
Jn3
“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”The way this would have been read in the greek may have been different.
For the greek scholars must it mean the Son of man HAS ALREADY ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN?
Nick;I find it hard to believe as the experts were mostly biased towards preexistence and what it states now reveals Jesus speaking of the Spirit and not the body; when he speaks of the One who came down.
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