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Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2012,11:23) Hi 94,
None have gone into heaven before Jesus.
This is what Jesus taught
Lk 16.23f
Hi Nick:No man has ascended into heaven after physically dieing. I Know that particular scripture does not say after death, but he did not ascend into heaven until after he died and was resurrected, and that is what has to be implied here because it is clear that Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven.
Quote Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)Luke 16:23F refers to Lazarus and the rich man both of whom had died.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2012,12:35) Hi 94,
Are you happy adding to the words of Jesus?
I am satisfied that he meant no man has ascended into heaven after physically dieing because it is obvious that two men have ascended into heaven according to the scriptures.Do you deny that the scriptures indicate that Enoch and Elijah were taken into heaven?
Love in Christ,
MartyHi 94,
No according to your current understanding of the scriptures.
Enoch is unclear but Elijah was SEEN going into the sky.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2012,12:52) Hi 94,
No according to your current understanding of the scriptures.
Enoch is unclear but Elijah was SEEN going into the sky.
Nick:Enoch may be unclear because the scriptures only state that he was translated that he should not die, but the scriptures state that Elijah was taken into heaven.
Quote 2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. Quote Hbr 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2012,07:52) Hi 94,
No according to your current understanding of the scriptures.
Enoch is unclear but Elijah was SEEN going into the sky.
Nick;Where do you conclude God took Enoch?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2012,13:11) Hi 94,
Do the scriptures conflict without your addition?
You do not need to add.
Nick:Are you not denying the scripture about Elijah? If I am wrong in what I will teach about this, that is that Jesus was saying that no man has ascended into heaven from the dead, I am praying that God will correct me.
You can teach what you want. You have to take all the Word into consideration, and because of the scripture states that Elijah was taken into heaven, I do not believe that I am adding to Jesus Words, but he was speaking of his resurrection from the dead and his ascension into heaven.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (terraricca @ May 05 2012,10:23) how did they knew that it was Moses and Elijah 
I don't know, but what does that have to do with the question of this thread? Is it possible that the one with Elijah was Enoch, and Peter and John just assumed it was Moses, since they had never seen either of them in the flesh?Quote (terraricca @ May 05 2012,10:23) Lk 1:17 And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.” is this not addressed to Christ
These words are said about John the Baptist in Luke 1:17. But what does that have to do with the question of the thread?Quote (942767 @ May 05 2012,20:29) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2012,13:11) Hi 94,
Do the scriptures conflict without your addition?
You do not need to add.
Nick:Are you not denying the scripture about Elijah? If I am wrong in what I will teach about this, that is that Jesus was saying that no man has ascended into heaven from the dead, I am praying that God will correct me.
You can teach what you want. You have to take all the Word into consideration, and because of the scripture states that Elijah was taken into heaven, I do not believe that I am adding to Jesus Words, but he was speaking of his resurrection from the dead and his ascension into heaven.
Love in Christ,
Marty
I agree Marty. And I will also pray for understanding in this matter.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2012,09:23) Quote (terraricca @ May 05 2012,10:23) how did they knew that it was Moses and Elijah
I don't know, but what does that have to do with the question of this thread? Is it possible that the one with Elijah was Enoch, and Peter and John just assumed it was Moses, since they had never seen either of them in the flesh?Quote (terraricca @ May 05 2012,10:23) Lk 1:17 And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.” is this not addressed to Christ
These words are said about John the Baptist in Luke 1:17. But what does that have to do with the question of the thread?
Mikeadd this to it ;
Mike
I believe what happen to Enoch was the same as Elijah
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
I also believe that anyone attaining the faith of those men would also receive the same experience ,the apostles were men like that ,
and yet Elisha ,he died from illness ,was he less worthy than Elijah
Moses we know was an picture of Christ the greater prophet and Elijah was a picture of John the Baptist (all according to scriptures)
was it for those reason that there body was never found
and Jesus said from all the men born from women John the baptist is the greatest and yet he died by execution .
so I may not understand all things but I can not see why those two men would be in heaven before the dead of Christ ,their SOUL yes but living with a new heavenly body NO,
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.————–
terraricca,
Do you judge the heart?
We are told that the result of Enoch's walking with God was that he was not because he was taken by God.
Why would Mike be able to judge whether or not Elisha walked closer to God than Elijah. Why would he be fool enough to double guess God?
God teaches us he has mercy on who he has mercy and compassion on who he has compassion; and that is enough for me as I know he is righteous.
What you believe Scripture infers and what it actually does are two different things.
Enoch was not infers he was not found either living or dead. I know this Scripture explicitly states he was note found. God took him means he was changed by God. I know that because Scripture explicitly states that. The ancient Greek word has more dimensions than “changed” and so expresses the idea better.
Quote (terraricca @ May 06 2012,15:00) so I may not understand all things but I can not see why those two men would be in heaven before the dead of Christ ,their SOUL yes but living with a new heavenly body NO,
Pierre,Jesus was the first to be raised FROM THE DEAD. Enoch and Elijah never died.
Quote (942767 @ May 06 2012,08:08) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2012,12:52) Hi 94,
No according to your current understanding of the scriptures.
Enoch is unclear but Elijah was SEEN going into the sky.
Nick:Enoch may be unclear because the scriptures only state that he was translated that he should not die, but the scriptures state that Elijah was taken into heaven.
Quote 2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. Quote Hbr 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty;According to merriam-webster.com, one of definition of translate is:
a : to bear, remove, or change from one place, state, form, or appearance to another
If he was changed from living to dead then he would see death and Scripture infers he did not when it explicitly states his ancestors and descendents did see death.
He did not go down to Sheol while still living as certain rebels did; as why would God treat him as he treats rebels; though Paradise of Sheol is quite present to the departed spirits of the righteous.
How was Enoch changed that that he was not found on earth?
Where did God take Enoch that he did not experience death?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 07 2012,05:05) Hi 94,
Jesus did not put it that way.
But believe what you will.
Hi Nick:Is the following a true statement?
No, man except Jesus has ascended into heaven from the dead.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ May 07 2012,06:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 07 2012,05:05) Hi 94,
Jesus did not put it that way.
But believe what you will.
Hi Nick:Is the following a true statement?
No, man except Jesus has ascended into heaven from the dead.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,Jesus was yet in his mortal body when he stated those words; so he was not speaking of his death which would come later; instead of previous.
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