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Nick, listen very closely here:
I don't know what is meant by “morning star” in Rev 2:28. But I do agree WITH YOU that it refers to “angelic sons” in Job.
My question to you is: WHY CAN'T IT ALSO REFER TO AN “ANGELIC SON” IN Rev 22:16?
Nick, do you have a SENSIBLE answer to that question or not?
Quote I do think the thread title is a little misleading, because we agree that flesh cannot enter the Kingdom of God, and “men” are made of flesh without exception. (That's one of the qualities that MAKES them “men” in the first place.) So in reality, we are discussing whether or not some who HAVE BEEN men in the past will dwell in heaven for eternity.
–Mike.
Yes, I guess it could be a little confusing. Yes, what I meant was as you indicated.
Hi, (Romans 8:9)
“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit,
if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.”
Does this verse just get swept under the rug,?Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.orgOr, how about these?
Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink;
but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the HolySpirit.
“The kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21)Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2012,07:42) Hi,
It is a JW dogma that some [the elect] will be living in heaven but the common ones will have to make do with earth.JW dogmas are pure folly
Nick, could we leave logical fallacies aside for a moment and focus on the 40 scriptures that were listed that do seem to indicate there will be people going to heaven?Nick, right now we are considering whether anyone goes to heaven, ever.
Attack the argument.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2012,07:37) Hi MB,
So no scriptures that say any men will make their abode in heaven.
Is there any scripture that says men will make their abode on earth?PHILIPPIANS 3:20-21
“As for us, OUR CITIZENSHIP EXISTS IN THE HEAVENS . . .the Lord Jesus Christ, who WILL REFASHION OUR HUMILIATED BODY to be conformed to HIS GLORIOUS BODY . . . .”Is it unrelated that verse 20 speaks of “our citizenship” in the heavens and verse 21 saying that bodies would be refashioned to conform to Christ's glorious (heavenly) body? Is that just a coincidence?
And, what does this refashioning of the body mean and why is it necessary if men will only live on earth? Right now, men have physical earthly bodies and live on earth. As we know, flesh and blood (human bodies) cannot inherit God's heavenly kingdom (which is ruled from heaven).
It's not a gigantic leap to put together the thought from verse 20 and verse 21.I'm posting these words again, because I feel most of it is simply ignored. (Mike, was it this thread that you got these words from?)
While the Bible certainly does hold out that the meek will inherit the earth (Ps 37:11,29; mat 5:5, etc) I believe there is ample evidence for some going to heaven, specifically, the chosen ones who would rule over those on the earth, or in other words, those who make up the kingdom (government) of which Jesus is head.
PHILIPPIANS 3:20-21
“As for us, OUR CITIZENSHIP EXISTS IN THE HEAVENS . . .the Lord Jesus Christ, who WILL REFASHION OUR HUMILIATED BODY to be conformed to HIS GLORIOUS BODY . . . .”The REASON for the new body the new spirit body, is that “flesh and blood cannot inherit” the kingdom.
1 CORINTHIANS 15:40, 42-44, 47-50
“There are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but THE GLORY OF THE HEAVENLY BODIES IS ONE SORT, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. . . . .So also is the resurrection of the dead. . . . It is sown a physical body, it is raised up A SPIRITUAL BODY. . . . The first man [Adam] is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man [Jesus Christ] is out of heaven. As the one made of dust is, so those made of dust are also; and as the heavenly one is, so those who are heavenly are also. And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, WE SHALL BEAR ALSO THE IMAGE OF THE HEAVENLY ONE. HOWEVER, THIS I SAY, BROTHERS, THAT FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT GOD’S KINGDOM.”Note that it says “the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort.” So in Philippians 3, where we are told that Jesus would refashion their bodies to conform to his “glorious body,” what conclusion should be drawn?
1 CORINTHIANS 15:53
“For this which is corruptible must PUT ON INCORRUPTION, and this which is mortal must put on immortality.”God has given such Christians the living hope of “an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance . . . reserved in the heavens.” (1Pe 1:3, 4, 18, 19; compare 1Co 9:25.)
2 PETER 1:4
“Through these things he has freely given us the precious and very grand promises, that through these you may become SHARERS IN DIVINE NATURE, having ESCAPED FROM THE CORRUPTION that is in the world through lust.”Persons whom God calls to heaven will be immortal, incorruptible spirit persons, “sharers in divine nature.” (1 Cor. 15:42-44, 53; 2 Pet. 1:4) Since “flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom,” these individuals must undergo a change. (1 Cor. 15:50) They must be given a “spiritual body.” (1 Cor 15:44) Are not spirit bodies designed to live in the spirit realm, heaven?
JOHN 3:3-6
“Unless anyone is BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God. . . . Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD. What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit.””Being born again is essential to enter God’s government. The apostle Peter explains the purpose of the new birth in this way:
1 PETER 1:3,4,23
“According to [God’s] great mercy he gave us a NEW BIRTH to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading INHERITANCE. IT IS RESERVED IN THE HEAVENS FOR YOU. . . .For you have been given a NEW BIRTH, not by corruptible, but by incorruptible [reproductive] seed, through the word of [the] living and enduring God.”Such ones are born again while yet in the flesh, that is, granted the position of spiritual sons of God, born of “incorruptible reproductive seed,” and their inheritance “is reserved in the heavens.” (Compare 1Jo 3:1,9; col 1:5.)
EPHESIANS 1:3-5
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES IN UNION WITH CHRIST, just as he chose us in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love. For he foreordained us to the ADOPTION through Jesus Christ as sons to himself,”
EPHESIANS 2:6
“and he raised us up together and SEATED US TOGETHER IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES in union with Christ Jesus,”The apostle Paul in his letter to the Ephesians speaks of Christians then living on earth as though they were already enjoying a heavenly position, being raised up and “seated . . . together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus.” (Eph 1:3; 2:6) The context shows that anointed Christians are so viewed by God because of his having ‘assigned them as heirs’ with his Son in the heavenly inheritance. While yet on earth, they have been exalted, or ‘lifted up,’ by such assignment. (Eph 1:11, 18-20; 2:4-7, 22)
In the following scripture, Paul goes on to show that those persons adopted to be heavenly sons are referred to as “the things in the heavens.”
EPHESIANS 1:9-11
“he made known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, TO GATHER ALL THINGS TOGETHER again in the Christ, THE THINGS IN THE HEAVENS and THE THINGS ON THE EARTH. [Yes,] in him, in union with whom we were also assigned as heirs,”
COLOSSIANS 1:20
“and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth OR the things in the heavens.”Paul also explains that this reconciliation involves two distinct groups of individuals, namely, “the things in the heavens” and “the things upon the earth.”
The first stage of God’s “administration” is the gathering together again of “the things in the heavens,” preparing the congregation of Kingdom heirs who are to live in the heavens under Jesus Christ as the spiritual Head. (Ro 8:16, 17; Eph 1:11; 1Pe 1:4)ROMANS 8:16-17
“The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also HEIRS: heirs indeed of God, but JOINT HEIRS WITH CHRIST, provided we suffer together that we may also be GLORIFIED TOGETHER.”How will God’s children be “glorified together”?
1 JOHN 3:2
“Beloved ones, now we are children of God, BUT AS YET IT HAS NOT BEEN MADE MANIFEST WHAT WE SHALL BE. We do know that whenever he is made manifest WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM, because WE SHALL SEE HIM JUST AS HE IS.”
(Compare 1 Joh 3:3; Mt 5:8; Rev 22:4; 1 Cor 13:12) Jehovah God, Christ Jesus and the angels all have spirit bodies. What their bodies look like we do not know. But John did know that they, the “children of God” would “be like him,” and that at that time, they “shall see him just as he is.”
Yet, notice these scriptures:
EXODUS 33:20
“You are not able to see my face, because no MAN may see me and yet live.””
1 JOHN 4:12
“At no time has anyone beheld God.”
If no “man” may see God and yet live, then the children of God cannot be men when they become “like him” and “see him just as he is,” can they? As Philippians 3:21 says of the anointed, Christ “will refashion our humiliated body to be conformed to his glorious body.”When the apostle Paul had only a glimpse of the manifestation of Jesus Christ after Jesus’ resurrection, he fell to the ground and was blinded by the brilliance, a miracle being required to restore his sight. (Ac 9:3-5, 17, 18; 26:13, 14) Likewise, angels are far more powerful than men. (2Pe 2:11) They are glorious, brilliant ones and have appeared as such in physical manifestations. (Mt 28:2-4; Lu 2:9) THESE SPIRIT SONS OF GOD HAVE VISION STRONG ENOUGH TO SEE AND ENDURE THE BRILLIANCE OF THE ALMIGHTY GOD. (Lu 1:19; Mt 18:10.) This is because they have spirit bodies, even as the anointed who “shall see him just as he is” are to be raised
with “a spiritual body.” (1 Cor 15:42)
It will be a body conformed to the “glorious body” of Jesus Christ (Php 3:21), who is “the image of the invisible God,” “the reflection of his glory and the exact representation of his very being.” (Col 1:15; Heb 1:3)PHILIPPIANS 3:14
“I am pursuing down toward the goal for THE PRIZE OF THE UPWARD CALL of God by means of Christ Jesus.” (Compare Ro 1:7; 8:30; 2 Tim 1:9; Jude 1:1)
HEBREWS 3:1
“Consequently, holy brothers, PARTAKERS OF THE HEAVENLY CALLING, consider the apostle and high priest whom we confess—Jesus.” (Compare Rom 8:30)
Doesn't this indicate that some will have “the prize of the upward call,” and be partakers of a heavenly calling? The dictionaries I checked indicated that a “calling” is:
1. impulse or desire to follow or do a particular job; a strong urge to follow a particular career or do a particular type of work.
2. a job, profession, occupation or vocation.
The Bible tells us that the “holy ones” would act as priests and judges and rule as kings with Christ. This is their calling. It is a heavenly “upward call.”These “holy ones” do not exercise kingly authority while on earth but must await their being united with Christ in the heavens.
EPHESIANS 1:18-21
“the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is THE HOPE TO WHICH HE CALLED YOU, what the glorious riches are which he holds as an INHERITANCE FOR THE HOLY ONES, and what the surpassing greatness of his power is toward us believers. IT IS ACCORDING TO THE OPERATION of the mightiness of his strength, with which HE HAS OPERATED IN THE CASE OF THE CHRIST when he raised him up from the dead and seated him AT HIS RIGHT HAND in the HEAVENLY PLACES, far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come.”The incorruptible spiritual body is referred to as a house. Notice where it is said to be:
2 CORINTHIANS 5:1
“For we know that if our earthly house [human body], this tent, should be dissolved, we are to have a building from God, A HOUSE NOT MADE WITH HANDS, everlasting IN THE HEAVENS. For in this dwelling house [human body] we do indeed groan, earnestly DESIRING TO PUT ON THE ONE FOR US FROM HEAVEN, so that, having really put it on, we shall not be found naked. In fact, we who are in this tent groan, being weighed down; because we want, not to put it off, but to put on the other, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.”
(Compare 2 Pet 1:13,14; 2 Tim 4:6)
Paul used the metaphor of a tent when speaking of the human bodies of spirit-begotten Christians. A collapsible tent is a more fragile and temporary dwelling than a normal house. Though existing on earth in a mortal body of flesh, the Christians who have the spirit as a token of the heavenly life to come look forward to “a building from God,” a heavenly body that is everlasting, incorruptible.2 CORINTHIANS 3:17-18
“Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom. And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah, are TRANSFORMED INTO THE SAME IMAGE FROM GLORY TO GLORY, exactly as done by Jehovah [the] Spirit.”
1 CORINTHIANS 13:12
“For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known.”ACTS 2:34
“Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,”
Why the need to say this if no one ever ascends to heaven? Why say the obvious? If no one ever goes to heaven, what is the point of saying this? It would be pointless. If it is obvious that no one goes to heaven, of course David didn't go to heaven. Of course, everyone didn't go. So why specify that David didn't go?JOHN 3:13
“Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.”
(Until the new covenant was made for a heavenly kingdom, where men would serve as joint heirs with Christ, no one had ascended into heaven.)Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 20 2012,01:03) Hi David,
Are we back to dependance on JW inference theology?
Surely one verse could be found?
Nthat was not the answer to the question ,
Hi,
The worldly myth is that at death men either go to heaven or hell.
And they believe they know who goes where.Quote (david @ April 19 2012,00:25) I'm posting these words again, because I feel most of it is simply ignored. (Mike, was it this thread that you got these words from?)
Yep. In fact I imported that entire post to this thread. (1st post on page 47)I was trying to use your points and scriptures one at a time, but after a few of the off-hand answers Nick gives when he can't scripturally refute what you're saying, I started to wonder whether or not it was even worth the effort. Here's my imitation of Nick addressing your Phil 3 point:
David, should we rely on JW logic to understand spiritual things?
What's really funny is that I just posted my imitation of Nick before I read Nick's post that is three posts above mine!
Quote (terraricca @ April 19 2012,10:03) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 20 2012,01:03) Hi David,
Are we back to dependance on JW inference theology?
Surely one verse could be found?
Nthat was not the answer to the question ,
No it wasn't, Pierre. But then, Nick is not the best at actually answering questions or addressing the actual point of other peoples' posts.Nick, if you are okay with not even trusting your God-given human brain to put one and one together and come up with two, then that's your choice. But why keep insulting those of us who choose to use the brain God created us with?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 18 2012,20:18) Hi MB,
You will need to find a way of aligning them ALL.
And how do YOU align the “morning stars” in Job with Rev 2:28? Wasn't it YOU who said Job referred to “angelic sons”?Hi MB,
So what makes a being a son of God?Rom8
Romans 8
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God
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