- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Hi Nick,
Parables are truth, however the objects in parables are often something other than what they appear to be,
as I have shown many times.You said, “Hades is only a remand centre, not the lake of fire.”
So you believe that this true story tells us that the rich man was being made to suffer in flames and torment in this remand center, for the entire period of time that he is waiting for the judgement. Interesting idea Nick, the man hadn't even been judged yet but he is made to suffer until his judgement any way. Where in scriptures does it tell us that we will burn in hell, excuse me, a remand center, up until the time that we are resurected and judged?
Hades is merely the grave where our bodies sleep.
“And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, you shall sleep [Heb: shakab—to lie down, to rest, to sleep, to decease] with your fathers…” (Deut. 31:16).
David said:
“Consider and hear me, O Lord my God: lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death” (Psalm 13:3).
When Lazarus was dead (John 11:14), Jesus said:
“Our friend Lazarus sleeps: but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep” (John 11:11).
You said “Neither is God a liar”. I agree, so does God tell us that In that sleep of death it is possible for the rich man to look up and see Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham?
“For the living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything…” (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
The dead know not anything Nick, do you believe God.
Do angels see? DO they have eyes? Huh???
Tim
Hi tim,
One thing I do know is that Jesus is the truth and no lie was ever found on his lips, so what I cannot know I can learn from him. Sometimes the truth is hard to swallow and many chose not to walk with him because of his teachings but to whom else can we go?
Angels too are held in remand centres-Tartarus.“One thing I do know is that Jesus is the truth and no lie was ever found on his lips, so what I cannot know I can learn from him.”
Praise God. If I do not learn it from Him now, I will learn it from Him eventually.
We can each rest assured that each of us knows as much right now as He sees fit to let us understand at this time in our lives.Tim
Hi Oxy,
The final fate of men is on earth according to Revelation.
Where does scripture say men go to heaven?Hi Oxy,
You said this in another thread.
“Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in Heaven.Mat 5:12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for your reward in Heaven is great. For so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Mat 5:20 For I say to you that unless your righteousness shall exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of Heaven.
Mat 19:23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, Truly I say to you that a rich man will with great difficulty enter into the kingdom of Heaven.
Mat 22:23 On that day the Sadducees came to Him, who say that there is no resurrection. And they asked Him,
Mat 22:24 saying, Master, Moses said, If a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up seed to his brother.
Mat 22:25 Now there were with us seven brothers. And the first, when he had married a wife, died. And, having no issue, he left his wife to his brother.
Mat 22:26 The second also did likewise, and the third, to the seventh.
Mat 22:27 And last of all the woman also died.
Mat 22:28 Therefore in the resurrection, whose wife shall she be, of the seven? For they all had her.
Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said to them, You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in Heaven.
Mat 22:31 But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?” God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.So my question is here, if Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are alive, where are they if not in Heaven?
Luk 6:23 Rejoice in that day and leap for joy. For behold, your reward is great in Heaven. For so their fathers did according to these things to the prophets.
Php 3:20 For our citizenship is in Heaven, from which also we are looking for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Php 3:21 who shall change our body of humiliation so that it may be fashioned like His glorious body, according to the working of His power, even to subdue all things to Himself. “
So the kingdom is the kingdom of heaven-sure-that is the throne of God.
Our reward is held in in heaven-sure-that is where it is kept for us.
Abraham's bosom is not heaven as Lk 16 shows.
We shall be as the angels of heaven-that does not say we will be with them there.
The Son of God will bring our citizenship with him when he returns to earth.“The meek shall inherit THE EARTH.”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2007,07:01) Hi Oxy,
The final fate of men is on earth according to Revelation.
Where does scripture say men go to heaven?
Where do the saved go otherwise?Mat 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They said to Him, We are able.
Mat 20:23 And He said to them, You shall indeed drink of My cup and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but to those for whom it has been prepared by My Father.So if people are going to sit to the left of, and to the right of Jesus, they must be where He is.
Hi Oxy,
The gates of hades will not prevail against those in Christ. They go to the mansions prepared for them by Christ-but where are these mansions[Jn 14]?
Then Christ returns with them to EARTH for 1000 years.[rev20]
Then God comes to dwell on earth with His people.Rev 21
” 1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. “
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2007,07:35) Hi Oxy,
The gates of hades will not prevail against those in Christ. They go to the mansions prepared for them by Christ-but where are these mansions[Jn 14]?
Then Christ returns with them to EARTH for 1000 years.[rev20]
Then God comes to dwell on earth with His people.Rev 21
” 1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. “
I am aware of those Scriptures Nick. Can I be so bold as to share a couple of experiences with you? I know that you are not into experiences and rely on Scripture, but if our experiences don't reflect Scripture, what is the point?I have lost my mother and youngest brother in years gone by. Both of their deaths were remarkable and amazing experiences. These are explained on my pages as below if you have the time to read them.
Hi Oxy,
So do believe all are saved? That all are natural sons of God? That we do not need to be reborn into the family of God? Is the gospel an unecessary action on the part of God? Did Jesus not need to suffer and die for us? Tell him.Quote So if people are going to sit to the left of, and to the right of Jesus, they must be where He is.
True.
EPHESIANS 2:6
“and he raised us up together and SEATED US TOGETHER IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES in union with Christ Jesus,”Quote “The meek shall inherit THE EARTH.” –Nick
Also true.So, then? ? ?
EPHESIANS 1:9-11
“he made known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, TO GATHER ALL THINGS TOGETHER again in the Christ, THE THINGS IN THE HEAVENS and THE THINGS ON THE EARTH. [Yes,] in him, in union with whom we were also assigned as heirs,”Those who go to heaven:
ROMANS 8:16-17
“The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also HEIRS: heirs indeed of God, but JOINT HEIRS WITH CHRIST, provided we suffer together that we may also be GLORIFIED TOGETHER.”
They would be glorified in heaven as Jesus would be again:“Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”—John 17:5; Romans 6:4, 9; Hebrews 9:24; 1 Peter 3:18.
Before the world was, Jesus had a glory in heaven. He humbled himself and came to the earth. But he didn't stay there. He is again glorified in heaven and we are told that those who are “heirs” of the kingdom would be glorified too.
They would be have a GLORIOUS SPIRITUAL BODY:
PHILIPPIANS 3:20-21
“As for us, OUR CITIZENSHIP EXISTS IN THE HEAVENS . . .the Lord Jesus Christ, who WILL REFASHION OUR HUMILIATED BODY to be conformed to HIS GLORIOUS BODY . . . .”1 CORINTHIANS 15:40, 42-44, 47-50
“There are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but THE GLORY OF THE HEAVENLY BODIES IS ONE SORT, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. . . . .So also is the resurrection of the dead. . . . It is sown a physical body, it is raised up A SPIRITUAL BODY. . . . The first man [Adam] is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man [Jesus Christ] is out of heaven. As the one made of dust is, so those made of dust are also; and as the heavenly one is, so those who are heavenly are also. And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, WE SHALL BEAR ALSO THE IMAGE OF THE HEAVENLY ONE. HOWEVER, THIS I SAY, BROTHERS, THAT FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT GOD’S KINGDOM.”
FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT GOD'S KINGDOM.
Hence, the need to be born again:“Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. . . .Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. ” (John 3:3,5)
It is a “heavenly kingdom,” for that is where the seat of authority comes, and where Jesus brothers will rule with him as kings, judges and priests over those who will inherit the earth, the meek.
Being born again is essential to enter God’s government. The apostle Peter explains the purpose of the new birth in this way:
1 PETER 1:3,4,23
“According to [God’s] great mercy he gave us a NEW BIRTH to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading INHERITANCE. IT IS RESERVED IN THE HEAVENS FOR YOU. . . .For you have been given a NEW BIRTH, not by corruptible, but by incorruptible [reproductive] seed, through the word of [the] living and enduring God.”1 JOHN 3:2
“Beloved ones, now we are children of God, BUT AS YET IT HAS NOT BEEN MADE MANIFEST WHAT WE SHALL BE. We do know that whenever he is made manifest WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM, because WE SHALL SEE HIM JUST AS HE IS.” (Compare 1 Joh 3:3; Mt 5:8; Rev 22:4; 1 Cor 13:12) Jehovah God, Christ Jesus and the angels all have spirit bodies. What their bodies look like we do not know. But John did know that they, the “children of God” would “be like him,” and that at that time, they “shall see him just as he is.”
Yet, notice these scriptures:
EXODUS 33:20
“You are not able to see my face, because no MAN may see me and yet live.””
1 JOHN 4:12
“At no time has anyone beheld God.”
If no “man” may see God and yet live, then the children of God cannot be men when they become “like him” and “see him just as he is,” can they? As Philippians 3:21 says of the anointed, Christ “will refashion our humiliated body to be conformed to his glorious body.”
When the apostle Paul had only a glimpse of the manifestation of Jesus Christ after Jesus’ resurrection, he fell to the ground and was blinded by the brilliance, a miracle being required to restore his sight. (Ac 9:3-5, 17, 18; 26:13, 14) Likewise, angels are far more powerful than men. (2Pe 2:11) They are glorious, brilliant ones and have appeared as such in physical manifestations. (Mt 28:2-4; Lu 2:9) THESE SPIRIT SONS OF GOD HAVE VISION STRONG ENOUGH TO SEE AND ENDURE THE BRILLIANCE OF THE ALMIGHTY GOD. (Lu 1:19; Mt 18:10.) This is because they have spirit bodies, even as the anointed who “shall see him just as he is” are to be raised with “a spiritual body.” (1 Cor 15:42)
It will be a body conformed to the “glorious body” of Jesus Christ (Php 3:21), who is “the image of the invisible God,” “the reflection of his glory and the exact representation of his very being.” (Col 1:15; Heb 1:3)2 CORINTHIANS 3:17-18
“Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom. And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah, are TRANSFORMED INTO THE SAME IMAGE FROM GLORY TO GLORY, exactly as done by Jehovah [the] Spirit.”
1 CORINTHIANS 13:12
“For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known.”PHILIPPIANS 3:14
“I am pursuing down toward the goal for THE PRIZE OF THE UPWARD CALL of God by means of Christ Jesus.” (Compare Ro 1:7; 8:30; 2 Tim 1:9; Jude 1:1)HEBREWS 3:1
“Consequently, holy brothers, PARTAKERS OF THE HEAVENLY CALLING, consider the apostle and high priest whom we confess—Jesus.” (Compare Rom 8:30)EPHESIANS 1:18-21
“the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is THE HOPE TO WHICH HE CALLED YOU, what the glorious riches are which he holds as an INHERITANCE FOR THE HOLY ONES, and what the surpassing greatness of his power is toward us believers. IT IS ACCORDING TO THE OPERATION of the mightiness of his strength, with which HE HAS OPERATED IN THE CASE OF THE CHRIST when he raised him up from the dead and seated him AT HIS RIGHT HAND in the HEAVENLY PLACES, far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come.”Yes, Nick, the Bible says that God will be with his people who are on earth. But this doesn't have to indicate location. He doesn't have to be literally there, with anyone.
1 KINGS 8:27,29
“But will God truly dwell upon the earth? Look! The heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens, themselves cannot contain you; how much less, then, this house that I have built!. . . .’My name will prove to be there,’ to listen to the prayer with which your servant prays toward this place.”Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2007,07:53) Hi Oxy,
So do believe all are saved? That all are natural sons of God? That we do not need to be reborn into the family of God? Is the gospel an unecessary action on the part of God? Did Jesus not need to suffer and die for us? Tell him.
Good grief Nick, where did you get that idea from? I have no recollection of saying any such thing!Hi david ,
You quote EPHESIANS 2:6
“and he raised us up together and SEATED US TOGETHER IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES in union with Christ Jesus”
This speaks of now. Are you aware of your presence in heaven now?So does Col3
“1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. “
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2007,08:51) Hi david ,
You quote EPHESIANS 2:6
“and he raised us up together and SEATED US TOGETHER IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES in union with Christ Jesus”
This speaks of now. Are you aware of your presence in heaven now?So does Col3
“1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. “
Hi Nick…..> good to see your back.I've been thinking some time now that the word Christ may not always mean the Person Jesus, But the Spirit or Annointing.
if we insert the word Spirit where the word Christ is, it seems to give it more sence of meanning.
This is not to say Jesus the person isn't there. There seems to be times when the term (Jesus Christ) is used obiviously meanning the person Jesus, and then others where just Christ is used, could there be a different meanning in scripture by the different way there used.
peace …gene
Hi,
The idea of men going to heaven would appear to be a popular myth.
The souls of the Martyrs are under the altar in Revelation and Christ takes us to hi mansions in Jn14 but where else is there any possible suggestion that any place but earth is the home of man?Matthew 5:5
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.Hi 94,
Matthew use the term
“Kingdom of heaven”
where Luke and Mark used
“Kingdom of God”4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mark 1:15
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Luke 10:11
Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.Matthew 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.So the terms are equivalent.
God's kingdom already was in heaven but a new kingdom was preached on earth.That earthly kingdom is the hope of mere men, not life in heaven.
Matthew 6:10
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.Quote (942767 @ Feb. 05 2008,11:24) Quote Matt. 5:3
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Hi 94,
Luke 6:20
And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 05 2008,11:45) Hi 94,
Matthew use the term
“Kingdom of heaven”
where Luke and Mark used
“Kingdom of God”4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mark 1:15
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Luke 10:11
Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.Matthew 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.So the terms are equivalent.
God's kingdom already was in heaven but a new kingdom was preached on earth.That earthly kingdom is the hope of mere men, not life in heaven.
Matthew 6:10
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
And so, through the gospel men are called into the Kingdom of heaven or the Kingdom of God which are apparently referring to the same Kingdom, and are subjected to God through the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, King Jesus who has delegated the authortity to govern the church to those in authortiy in the church, and the decisions that they make will be binding in heaven.But Matthew 5:3 states: “Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven”. (or Kingdom of God) Is this the same as saying that they are part of the Kindgom of God which is true of every Christian? Or is this saying that they will be in authority in the church?
There is a literal heaven where God and Jesus now reside because the scripture states that “whatever is bound on earth will be bound in heaven”
This present earth is temporary. It is where the gospel is preached calling men into the Kingdom of God, and in this earth is the refining fire through which we must go in order to become what God is making us to be.
Quote 2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
3:11
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
3:12
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat ?
3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein * * dwelleth righteousness.What are your thoughts?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
