Discussion of deity of Jesus quotes

[Lightenup]

Hi all,

This thread is a place to discuss the thread that is a database of extra-Biblical quotes that support the deity of Jesus Christ found here:

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=3886

In the database thread only those who believe in the deity of Jesus are to post quotes from extra-Biblical sources apart from members of HN…preferably scholarly sources. However, here in this topic, all members may discuss those quotes.

Please put a link to the quote you are discussing or actually copy the quote here in your post.

Thanks!

[Lightenup]

I will paste some posts from the database thread to start discussion if interested.

[Lightenup]

This post was made by Kangaroo Jack from here:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….y340987

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 03 2012,14:11)

Tertullian's view: We have already asserted that God made the world, and all which it contains, by His Word, and Reason, and Power. It is abundantly plain that your philosophers, too, regard the Logos—that is, the Word and Reason—as the Creator of the universe. For Zeno lays it down that he is the creator, having made all things according to a determinate plan; that his name is Fate, and God, and the soul of Jupiter, and the necessity of all things. Cleanthes ascribes all this to spirit, which he maintains pervades the universe. And we, in like manner, hold that the Word, and Reason, and Power, by which we have said God made all, have spirit as their proper and essential substratum, in which the Word has in being to give forth utterances, and reason abides to dispose and arrange, and power is over all to execute. We have been taught that He proceeds forth from God, and in that procession He is generated; so that He is the Son of God, and is called God from unity of substance with God.  For God, too, is a Spirit. Even when the ray is shot from the sun, it is still part of the parent mass; the sun will still be in the ray, because it is a ray of the sun—there is no division of substance, but merely an extension.  Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled.105 The material matrix remains entire and unimpaired, though you derive from it any number of shoots possessed of its qualities; so, too, that which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is made a second in manner of existence—in position, not in nature; and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth.  This ray of God, then, as it was always foretold in ancient times, descending into a certain virgin, and made flesh in her womb, 35is in His birth God and man united. from here: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.iv.iii.xxi.html

According to Tertullain Jesus was the Word BEFORE He became Son

Quote

Like the Apologists, Tertullian posited a two-stage existence in the Word: First as immanent within the Father, then as expressed at the Son's generation: There are some who allege that even Genesis opens thus in Hebrew: “In the beginning God made for Himself a Son.” As there is no ground for this, I am led to other arguments derived from God's own dispensation, in which He existed before the creation of the world, up to the generation of the Son. For before all things God was alone – being in Himself and for Himself universe, and space, and all things. Moreover, He was alone, because there was nothing external to Him but Himself. Yet even not then was He alone; for He had with Him that which He possessed in Himself, that is to say, His own Reason. For God is rational, and Reason was first in Him; and so all things were from Himself. This Reason is His own Thought (or Consciousness) which the Greeks call logos, by which term we also designate Word or Discourse and therefore it is now usual with our people, owing to the mere simple interpretation of the term, to say that the Word was in the beginning with God; although it would be more suita ble to regard Reason as the more ancient; because God had not Word from the beginning, but He had Reason even before the beginning; because also Word itself consists of Reason, which it thus proves to have been the prior existence as being its own substance…. He became also the Son of God, and was begotten when He proceeded forth from Him (from chs. 5,7).

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/trinity1.html#Christ

Kathy's fragments from Tertullian do not prove that he thought the Word did not exist before He was begotten. On the contrary, he said that the Word had “prior existence as being of its own substance, and became ALSO the Son of God and was begotten….

To accurately represent Tertullian is to say that the Eternal Word became Son in time. This is my belief except I maintain that the Word became Son in His incarnation.

KJ

[Lightenup]

This post was made by t8 to KJ from here:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….6;st=10

Quote

KJ, have you changed your view again? Not a necessarily a bad thing of course. You use to teach that Jesus was and is God, but now you say he is the Word. This is a change in view is it not?

[Lightenup]

This post was made by t8 to LU from here:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….6;st=10

Quote

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 03 2012,17:11) Tertullian's view: We have already asserted that God made the world, and all which it contains, by His Word, and Reason, and Power. It is abundantly plain that your philosophers, too, regard the Logos—that is, the Word and Reason—as the Creator of the universe. For Zeno lays it down that he is the creator, having made all things according to a determinate plan; that his name is Fate, and God, and the soul of Jupiter, and the necessity of all things. Cleanthes ascribes all this to spirit, which he maintains pervades the universe. And we, in like manner, hold that the Word, and Reason, and Power, by which we have said God made all, have spirit as their proper and essential substratum, in which the Word has in being to give forth utterances, and reason abides to dispose and arrange, and power is over all to execute. We have been taught that He proceeds forth from God, and in that procession He is generated; so that He is the Son of God, and is called God from unity of substance with God.  For God, too, is a Spirit. Even when the ray is shot from the sun, it is still part of the parent mass; the sun will still be in the ray, because it is a ray of the sun—there is no division of substance, but merely an extension.  Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled.105 The material matrix remains entire and unimpaired, though you derive from it any number of shoots possessed of its qualities; so, too, that which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is made a second in manner of existence—in position, not in nature; and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth.  This ray of God, then, as it was always foretold in ancient times, descending into a certain virgin, and made flesh in her womb, 35is in His birth God and man united. from here: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.iv.iii.xxi.html LU, understanding the difference between identity and nature will make you see this in a different light. e.g., Eve is man (mankind). Eve is the man. Notice that both sentences are saying different things, but to the untrained eye might be be thought of as the same thing. I think your view with Jesus and divinity aligns more with the second sentence than the first which of course is wrong in the above example at least.

t8,
Both the Father and the Son are called ho theos in scripture. The article is not exclusive to the Father.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 27 2012,14:50)

This post was made by Kangaroo Jack from here: https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….y340987 Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 03 2012,14:11) Tertullian's view: We have already asserted that God made the world, and all which it contains, by His Word, and Reason, and Power. It is abundantly plain that your philosophers, too, regard the Logos—that is, the Word and Reason—as the Creator of the universe. For Zeno lays it down that he is the creator, having made all things according to a determinate plan; that his name is Fate, and God, and the soul of Jupiter, and the necessity of all things. Cleanthes ascribes all this to spirit, which he maintains pervades the universe. And we, in like manner, hold that the Word, and Reason, and Power, by which we have said God made all, have spirit as their proper and essential substratum, in which the Word has in being to give forth utterances, and reason abides to dispose and arrange, and power is over all to execute. We have been taught that He proceeds forth from God, and in that procession He is generated; so that He is the Son of God, and is called God from unity of substance with God.  For God, too, is a Spirit. Even when the ray is shot from the sun, it is still part of the parent mass; the sun will still be in the ray, because it is a ray of the sun—there is no division of substance, but merely an extension.  Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled.105 The material matrix remains entire and unimpaired, though you derive from it any number of shoots possessed of its qualities; so, too, that which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is made a second in manner of existence—in position, not in nature; and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth.  This ray of God, then, as it was always foretold in ancient times, descending into a certain virgin, and made flesh in her womb, 35is in His birth God and man united. from here: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.iv.iii.xxi.html According to Tertullain Jesus was the Word BEFORE He became Son Quote Like the Apologists, Tertullian posited a two-stage existence in the Word: First as immanent within the Father, then as expressed at the Son's generation: There are some who allege that even Genesis opens thus in Hebrew: “In the beginning God made for Himself a Son.” As there is no ground for this, I am led to other arguments derived from God's own dispensation, in which He existed before the creation of the world, up to the generation of the Son. For before all things God was alone – being in Himself and for Himself universe, and space, and all things. Moreover, He was alone, because there was nothing external to Him but Himself. Yet even not then was He alone; for He had with Him that which He possessed in Himself, that is to say, His own Reason. For God is rational, and Reason was first in Him; and so all things were from Himself. This Reason is His own Thought (or Consciousness) which the Greeks call logos, by which term we also designate Word or Discourse and therefore it is now usual with our people, owing to the mere simple interpretation of the term, to say that the Word was in the beginning with God; although it would be more suita ble to regard Reason as the more ancient; because God had not Word from the beginning, but He had Reason even before the beginning; because also Word itself consists of Reason, which it thus proves to have been the prior existence as being its own substance…. He became also the Son of God, and was begotten when He proceeded forth from Him (from chs. 5,7). http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/trinity1.html#Christ Kathy's fragments from Tertullian do not prove that he thought the Word did not exist before He was begotten. On the contrary, he said that the Word had “prior existence as being of its own substance, and became ALSO the Son of God and was begotten…. To accurately represent Tertullian is to say that the Eternal Word became Son in time. This is my belief except I maintain that the Word became Son in His incarnation. KJ

KJ,
Tertullian places the “nativity of the Word” at the time that God spoke “Let there be Light” on day one of creation, not at the time of Mary.

This is what Tertullian says:

Chapter VII.—The Son by Being Designated Word and Wisdom, (According to the Imperfection of Human Thought and Language) Liable to Be Deemed a Mere Attribute. He is Shown to Be a Personal Being.

Then, therefore, does the Word also Himself assume His own form and glorious garb,7823His own sound and vocal utterance, when God says, “Let there be light.”7824 This is the perfect nativity of the Word, when He proceeds forth from God—formed7825 by Him first to devise and think out all things under the name of Wisdom—“The Lord created or formed7826 me as the beginning of His ways;”7827 then afterward begotten, to carry all into effect—“When He prepared the heaven, I was present with Him.”7828 Thus does He make Him equal to Him: for by proceeding from Himself He became His first-begotten Son, because begotten before all things;7829 and His only-begotten also, because alone begotten of God, in a way peculiar to Himself, from the womb of His own heart—even as the Father Himself testifies: “My heart,” says He, “hath emitted my most excellent Word.”7830The Father took pleasure evermore in Him, who equally rejoiced with a reciprocal gladness in the Father’s presence:  “Thou art my Son, to-day have I begotten Thee;”7831 even before the morning star did I 602beget Thee. The Son likewise acknowledges the Father, speaking in His own person, under the name of Wisdom: “The Lord formed Me as the beginning of His ways, with a view to His own works; before all the hills did He beget Me.”7832 For if indeed Wisdom in this passage seems to say that She was created by the Lord with a view to His works, and to accomplish His ways, yet proof is given in another Scripture that “all things were made by the Word, and without Him was there nothing made;”7833 as, again, in another place (it is said), “By His word were the heavens established, and all the powers thereof by His Spirit”7834—that is to say, by the Spirit (or Divine Nature) which was in the Word: thus is it evident that it is one and the same power which is in one place described under the name of Wisdom, and in another passage under the appellation of the Word, which was initiated for the works of God7835 which “strengthened the heavens;”7836 “by which all things were made,”7837 “and without which nothing was made.”7838 Nor need we dwell any longer on this point, as if it were not the very Word Himself, who is spoken of under the name both of Wisdom and of Reason, and of the entire Divine Soul and Spirit. He became also the Son of God, and was
begotten when He proceeded forth from Him.  Do you then, (you ask,) grant that the Word is a certain substance, constructed by the Spirit and the communication of Wisdom? Certainly I do. But you will not allow Him to be really a substantive being, by having a substance of His own; in such a way that He may be regarded as an objective thing and a person, and so be able (as being constituted second to God the Father,) to make two, the Father and the Son, God and the Word. For you will say, what is a word, but a voice and sound of the mouth, and (as the grammarians teach) air when struck against,7839 intelligible to the ear, but for the rest a sort of void, empty, and incorporeal thing. I, on the contrary, contend that nothing empty and void could have come forth from God, seeing that it is not put forth from that which is empty and void; nor could that possibly be devoid of substance which has proceeded from so great a substance, and has produced such mighty substances: for all things which were made through Him, He Himself (personally) made. How could it be, that He Himself is nothing, without whom nothing was made? How could He who is empty have made things which are solid, and He who is void have made things which are full, and He who is incorporeal have made things which have body? For although a thing may sometimes be made different from him by whom it is made, yet nothing can be made by that which is a void and empty thing. Is that Word of God, then, a void and empty thing, which is called the Son, who Himself is designated God? “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”7840 It is written, “Thou shalt not take God’s name in vain.”7841 This for certain is He “who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.”7842 In what form of God? Of course he means in some form, not in none. For who will deny that God is a body, although “God is a Spirit?”7843 For Spirit has a bodily substance of its own kind, in its own form.7844 Now, even if invisible things, whatsoever they be, have both their substance and their form in God, whereby they are visible to God alone, how much more shall that which has been sent forth from His substance not be without substance!  Whatever, therefore, was the substance of the Word that I designate a Person, I claim for it the name of Son; and while I recognize the Son, I assert His distinction as second to the Father.7845

From here: http://www.ccel.org/ccel….ghlight

[carmel]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 28 2012,07:09)

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 27 2012,14:50) This post was made by Kangaroo Jack from here: https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….y340987 Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 03 2012,14:11) Tertullian's view: We have already asserted that God made the world, and all which it contains, by His Word, and Reason, and Power. It is abundantly plain that your philosophers, too, regard the Logos—that is, the Word and Reason—as the Creator of the universe. For Zeno lays it down that he is the creator, having made all things according to a determinate plan; that his name is Fate, and God, and the soul of Jupiter, and the necessity of all things. Cleanthes ascribes all this to spirit, which he maintains pervades the universe. And we, in like manner, hold that the Word, and Reason, and Power, by which we have said God made all, have spirit as their proper and essential substratum, in which the Word has in being to give forth utterances, and reason abides to dispose and arrange, and power is over all to execute. We have been taught that He proceeds forth from God, and in that procession He is generated; so that He is the Son of God, and is called God from unity of substance with God.  For God, too, is a Spirit. Even when the ray is shot from the sun, it is still part of the parent mass; the sun will still be in the ray, because it is a ray of the sun—there is no division of substance, but merely an extension.  Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled.105 The material matrix remains entire and unimpaired, though you derive from it any number of shoots possessed of its qualities; so, too, that which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is made a second in manner of existence—in position, not in nature; and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth.  This ray of God, then, as it was always foretold in ancient times, descending into a certain virgin, and made flesh in her womb, 35is in His birth God and man united. from here: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.iv.iii.xxi.html According to Tertullain Jesus was the Word BEFORE He became Son Quote Like the Apologists, Tertullian posited a two-stage existence in the Word: First as immanent within the Father, then as expressed at the Son's generation: There are some who allege that even Genesis opens thus in Hebrew: “In the beginning God made for Himself a Son.” As there is no ground for this, I am led to other arguments derived from God's own dispensation, in which He existed before the creation of the world, up to the generation of the Son. For before all things God was alone – being in Himself and for Himself universe, and space, and all things. Moreover, He was alone, because there was nothing external to Him but Himself. Yet even not then was He alone; for He had with Him that which He possessed in Himself, that is to say, His own Reason. For God is rational, and Reason was first in Him; and so all things were from Himself. This Reason is His own Thought (or Consciousness) which the Greeks call logos, by which term we also designate Word or Discourse and therefore it is now usual with our people, owing to the mere simple interpretation of the term, to say that the Word was in the beginning with God; although it would be more suita ble to regard Reason as the more ancient; because God had not Word from the beginning, but He had Reason even before the beginning; because also Word itself consists of Reason, which it thus proves to have been the prior existence as being its own substance…. He became also the Son of God, and was begotten when He proceeded forth from Him (from chs. 5,7). http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/trinity1.html#Christ Kathy's fragments from Tertullian do not prove that he thought the Word did not exist before He was begotten. On the contrary, he said that the Word had “prior existence as being of its own substance, and became ALSO the Son of God and was begotten…. To accurately represent Tertullian is to say that the Eternal Word became Son in time. This is my belief except I maintain that the Word became Son in His incarnation. KJ KJ, Tertullian places the “nativity of the Word” at the time that God spoke “Let there be Light” on day one of creation, not at the time of Mary. This is what Tertullian says: Chapter VII.—The Son by Being Designated Word and Wisdom, (According to the Imperfection of Human Thought and Language) Liable to Be Deemed a Mere Attribute. He is Shown to Be a Personal Being. Then, therefore, does the Word also Himself assume His own form and glorious garb,7823His own sound and vocal utterance, when God says, “Let there be light.”7824 This is the perfect nativity of the Word, when He proceeds forth from God—formed7825 by Him first to devise and think out all things under the name of Wisdom—“The Lord created or formed7826 me as the beginning of His ways;”7827 then afterward begotten, to carry all into effect—“When He prepared the heaven, I was present with Him.”7828 Thus does He make Him equal to Him: for by proceeding from Himself He became His first-begotten Son, because begotten before all things;7829 and His only-begotten also, because alone begotten of God, in a way peculiar to Himself, from the womb of His own heart—even as the Father Himself testifies: “My heart,” says He, “hath emitted my most excellent Word.”7830The Father took pleasure evermore in Him, who equally rejoiced with a reciprocal gladness in the Father’s presence:  “Thou art my Son, to-day have I begotten Thee;”7831 even before the morning star did I 602beget Thee. The Son likewise acknowledges the Father, speaking in His own person, under the name of Wisdom: “The Lord formed Me as the beginning of His ways, with a view to His own works; before all the hills did He beget Me.”7832 For if indeed Wisdom in this passage seems to say that She was created by the Lord with a view to His works, and to accomplish His ways, yet proof is given in another Scripture that “all things were made by the Word, and without Him was there nothing made;”7833 as, again, in another place (it is said), “By His word were the heavens established, and all the powers thereof by His Spirit”7834—that is to say, by the Spirit (or Divine Nature) which was in the Word: thus is it evident that it is one and the same power which is in one place described under the name of Wisdom, and in another passage under the appellation of the Word, which was initiated for the works of God7835 which “strengthened the heavens;”7836 “by which all things were made,”7837 “and without which nothing was made.”7838 Nor need we dwell any longer on this point, as if it were not the very Word Himself, who is spoken of under the name both of Wisdom and of Reason, and of the entire Divine Soul and Spirit. He became also the Son of God, and was begotten when He proceeded forth from Him.  Do you then, (you ask,) grant that the Word is a certain substance, constructed by the Spirit and the communication of Wisdom? Certainly I do. But you will not allow Him to be really a substantive being, by having a substance of His own; in such a way that He may be regarded as an objective thing and a person, and so be able (as being constituted second to God the Father,) to make two, the Father and the Son, God and the Word. For you will say, what is a word, but a voice and sound of the mouth, and (as the grammarians teach) air when struck against,7839 intelligible to the ear, but for the rest a sort of void, empty, and incorporeal thing. I, on the contrary, contend that nothing empty and void could have come forth from God, seeing that it is not put forth from that which is empty and void; nor could that possibly be devoid of substance which has proceeded from so great a substance, and has produced such mighty substances: for all things which were made through Him, He Himself (personally) made. How could it be, that He Himself is nothing, without whom nothing was made? How could He who is empty have made things which are solid, and He who is void have made things which are full, and He who is incorporeal have made things which have body? For although a thing may sometimes be made different from him by whom it is made, yet nothing can be made by that which is a void and empty thing. Is that Word of God, then, a void and empty thing, which is called the Son, who Himself is designated God? “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”7840 It is written, “Thou shalt not take God’s name in vain.”7841 This for certain is He “who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.”7842 In what form of God? Of course he means in some form, not in none. For who will deny that God is a body, although “God is a Spirit?”7843 For Spirit has a bodily substance of its own kind, in its own form.7844 Now, even if invisible things, whatsoever they be, have both their substance and their form in God, whereby they are visible to God alone, how much more shall that which has been sent forth from His substance not be without substance!  Whatever, therefore, was the substance of the Word that I designate a Person, I claim for it the name of Son; and while I recognize the Son, I assert His distinction as second to the Father.7845 From here: http://www.ccel.org/ccel….ghlight

Quote

[/QUOTE] Tertullian places the “nativity of the Word” at the time that God spoke “Let there be Light” on day one of creation, not at the time of Mary.

Lightenup,

Hereunder,is 1 John5:6

This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Through the above scripture, John confirmed that in Genesis 1:3  “LET THERE BE LIGHT”it is definitely the EMANATION OF JESUS’SPIRIT. TO CREAT OUR WORLD.

The interesting thing is that John said that Jesus came with WATER and BLOOD. This definition definitely not when Jesus was born in Mary for the simple reason that Jesus was born directly through the Holy Ghost.

The definition WATER and BLOOD is a reference to what happened in Genesis 1:3.

In Genesis 1:2 we are aware that DARKNESS established itself, therefore Lucifer rebelled, he established himself as god of the world, he also established new policies, and principles with God and was sent by God to earth under the impression that he was to create his carnal world, which eventually became our present world.

Now the WATER and BLOOD is a reference to  Jesus’ Spirit, symbolically the water, and Lucifer’ spirit symbolically the blood. You might ask ,how did you conclude so???

When God sent Lucifer He didn’t sent him on his own for the simple reason, that since Lucifer became a direct contender to Jesus to become man, therefore God’s enemy, He was not powerful enough to achieve what he believed he was capable of.

lUKE 18:8 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.
.
His power gradually had diminished through pride and then wickedness, and became powerless. This occurred for the simple reason that God’s power radiates onto His creatures only in respect of their love to Him. But as soon as this first MASTER PIECE OF GOD, spiritual powerful creature started to reject God, God through the power of the Holy Spirit, kept him in balance by Jesus’ Spirit within him and also as powerful with the hope that he eventually would turn back, unaware that his power WAS SUBJECT TO GOD. This didn’t help Lucifer, for the simple reason that he had wickedness within him, and totally blind believed that he was autonomous, and would create his own visible material world opposite in every sense to God, with the consequences that in fact Jesus’ Spirit was really doing everything  for God.

God through His Son’s Spirit by the power of the Holy Spirit within Lucifer became both good and evil, both light and darkness, both the wrath of God and the love of God, perfect justice being in Jesus’ substance. ALPHA AND OMEGA

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I am in the Father and the Father is in me BING BANG!!

AND I WONDER WHAT A BIG BANG IT WAS ,A CLASH BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON, WHAT A HUG, THE FIRST EVER DIVINE MARRIAGE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL.

Oh no! GOOD AND GOOD,  wow!! I LET YOU ESTABLISH  YOURSELF WHAT ACTUALLY WAS!!!

I have to repeat this  IT IS ABSOLUTE LIGHT FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT.
So all the evil actions no matter what where coming from Jesus’ spirit after all not from Satan since he was powerless.(OT). But in the same time Jesus was not committing any evil Himself it was Satan’s will.

Genesis 25:23And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; GENERATIONS OF HEAVEN AND GENERATIOS OF EARTH. and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the ELDER (Jesus)shall serve the YOUNGER.(Lucifer)

in order to get him back to the original state even still. THAT’S HOW

From the other hand through Jesus’ Spirit and the Holy Ghost God  apart that He would act as the devil himself, the negative source, He as God, would also create the good, the positive source. Through this new principle, God sent His Son, the Light, THE WATER, within Darkness, Lucifer, THE BLOOD to create our world.

So that was it!!

Matthew 18:7 Woe to the world because of scandals. For it must needs be that scandals come: but nevertheless WOE TO THAT  MAN BY WHOM THE SCANDAL COMETH .

Reflect on Matthew 18:7:

This is a reference to Jesus as man, which had been crucified for all the sins committed in the entire creation, HE COMMITTED AND NOT COMMITTED ,after all if He didn’t supply the p
ower Satan would have done nothing.

This mysterious  WATER AND BLOOD, BOTH unification AND NOT of good and evil, spirit and matter, ( THE FIRST EVER MARRIAGE) remained so throughout, till the first MAN(SPIRIT) “Jesus”  BORN OF A WOMAN(MATTER) also “Jesus”  

was born through both in the spiritual and matter conception act ,both in these spirits as:

ONE IN THE MATTER,AND ONE IN THE SPIRIT All in Jesus

SON OF GOD AND SON OF MAN. HYPOSTATIC UNION.  All in Jesus

AS THE WRATH OF GOD AND THE LOVE OF GOD IN ONE BODY All in Jesus

lived in that state in this world, IN BOTH SPIRITS, dies, IN BOTH SPIRITS ,TAKEN TO HELL IN BOTH SPIRITS  tested by  FIRE ,and the one who is most powerful would glorify as BOTH A SPIRIT AND FLESH BEING ,both WATER AND BLOOD FOR ETERNITY.

I wonder how those mysterious and hidden18 years in the life of Jesus were fulfilled ?

PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS

CHARLES

[NickHassan]

Hi Charles,
What is the future for those who teach MYSTERIOUS babylonian doctrines?

[Lightenup]

Hi Charles,
I agree that the Son was most likely brought forth when God said, “Let there be light.” I do not agree that satan fell before that happened though. I don't believe that anything was formed before then including angels. Darkness is merely the absence of light. Thanks for your response though.

Blessings,
Kathi

[carmel]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 17 2012,15:11)

Hi Charles, I agree that the Son was most likely brought forth when God said, “Let there be light.” I do not agree that satan fell before that happened though. I don't believe that anything was formed before then including angels. Darkness is merely the absence of light. Thanks for your response though. Blessings, Kathi

Quote

I do not agree that satan fell before that happened though.

Lightenup,

THAT WAS THE CAUSE!!!

God introduced the LIGHT ONLY BECAUSE THE DARKNESS ESTABLISHED ITSELF IN GENESIS 1:2

Darkness is merely the absence of light.

Genesis 1:1 it is clear:

 1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth                

So all was created perfect by God. Nothing whatever God created in Genesis 1:1 lacked light.

15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee

Here it is clear YOU WERE PERFECT.

NOTICE ALSO THAT HEAVEN IN GENESIS 1:1IS SINGULAR NOT PLURAL LIKE GENESIS 2:1

1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

THIS TO MAKE US AWARE THAT  IN GENESIS 1:1 ALL WAS IN HARMONY SO THERE WAS ONLY ONE KIND OF HEAVEN, BUT IN GENESIS 2:1 THERE WERE OTHER HEAVENS, OURS WHICH ARE NOT PERFECT AND IN HARMONY.

TO CONCLUDE :

GOD CREATED GENESIS 1:1 WHILE THE SON WAS STILL ONE WITH THE FATHER. THIS ALSO IS A SIGN THAT THE FIRST HEAVEN (ALL THE SPIRITUAL CREATURES AND THE COSMOS)WERE CREATED BY THE FATHER MORE DIRECTLY THAN OUR CORRUPTED HEAVEN AND EARTH.

OUR WORLD WAS CREATED AFTER DARKNESS WAS ESTABLISHED,IN GENESIS 1:2 BUT BANG ON WHEN THE FATHER EMANATED HIS SON'S SPIRIT TOGETHER WITH THE HOLY GHOST TO SUPPLY TOTAL POWER TO HIS SON IN ORDER TO BE SUPERIOR TO AND WITHIN  LUCIFER'S SPIRIT WHO WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT HE WAS GOING TO CREATE OUR WORLD.

JESUS IN JOHN 17:6,AND LATER IN 9 WHICH IS HEREUNDER MADE US AWARE THAT HIS APPOSTLES WERE HIS FATHER'S SIMPLY TO MAKE US AWARE THAT THEY WERE ANGELS SENT IN FORM OF HUMANS IN OUR WORLD TO COMMENCE HIS CHURCH. THESE AS I SAID ABOVE WERE CREATED IN THE FIRST INSTANT OF CREATION MORE DIRECTLY BY THE FATHER BUT THROUGH HIS SON'S SPIRIT WITHIN HIM.

THESE ARE CALLED THE GENERATIONS OF HEAVEN, WHICH DEFINITELY ARE THE ONLY HOLY PEOPLE TO DO SUCH WORK,NOT ORDINARY EVIL AND SATANIC POSSESSED IN THEIR SOULS THROUGH ADAM SIN.

John 17:9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

peace and love in Jesus

Charles

[Lightenup]

Charles,
I don't believe that your theory is supported by scripture but by imagination.

See here:
Col 1 15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

The Son was begotten and hence called the 'firstborn.' It was through the Firstborn that all things were created even in the heavens and even the invisible (aside from the Father who is already present in the context). The heavens and earth were not created by the pre-begotten Son but the begotten Son…the FirstBORN.

Besides, at the end of the six days of creation, God said:

31God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

I don't believe fallen angels would be considered good.

Take care,
Kathi

[carmel]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 17 2012,21:24)

Charles, I don't believe that your theory is supported by scripture but by imagination. See here: Col 1 15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. The Son was begotten and hence called the 'firstborn.' It was through the Firstborn that all things were created even in the heavens and even the invisible (aside from the Father who is already present in the context). The heavens and earth were not created by the pre-begotten Son but the begotten Son…the FirstBORN. Besides, at the end of the six days of creation, God said: 31God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. I don't believe fallen angels would be considered good. Take care, Kathi

Quote

the firstborn of all creation.

Lightenup,

Col 1 15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Quote

The Son was begotten and hence called the 'firstborn.' The heavens and earth were not created by the pre-begotten Son but the begotten Son…the FirstBORN.

Col. 1:15 never mentions BEGOTTEN

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

BEFORE THE WORLD WAS NOT BEFORE THE HEAVENS WERE.

SO THE SON WAS STILL IN THE FATHER WHEN THE HEAVENS WERE CREATED, OTHERWISE HE WOULD HAVE SAID SO.

BEGOTTEN  DOES NOT MEAN THE FIRST BORN.

BEGOTTEN THROUGH PARENTS, THEREFORE WHEN HE WAS BORN OF MARY. WHICH IT COULDN'T MEAN THAT THROUGH HIM as a human ALL WAS CREATED.

NOW READ :HEBREWS 11:17
17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son

Above is a clear example that although ISAAC was not Abraham's first born, he still is called BEGOTTEN. Abraham's first born was ISHMAEL, BUT HE WAS NOT BEGOTTEN SINCE NOT THROUGH PROPER PARENTS. SO A BEGOTTEN SON MUST HAVE PROPER PARENTS.

THE FIRST BORN OF EVERY CREATURE MEANS THAT FROM THE FIRST EVER ANGEL TO THE FIRST EVER SOUL IN ADAM WERE CREATED BY ,WITH, AND FOR JESUS'SPIRIT.

SO JESUS SPIRIT WAS THE SUBSTANCE OF ALL CREATURES,BUT NOT ALL IN THE SAME PHASE,AND NOT ALL IN THE SAME STATE.

THE FIRST PHASE WAS THE HEAVENS BUT THE SPIRIT OF JESUS WAS ONE WITH THE FATHER, AND THE FATHER CREATED ALL HEAVENS BY HIS SPIRIT.

THEREFORE THE FIRST EVER ANGEL WAS CREATED THROUGH JESUS' SPIRIT,USING JESUS SPIRIT AS PART OF HIS SUBSTANCE, BUT THE SON REMAINED IN THE FATHER .

THEN AFTER THE REBEL ,AND DUE TO THAT REBEL,HE WAS EMANATED FROM THE FATHER IN GENESIS 1:3 TO CREATE OUR WORLD THROUGH THE REBELLIOUS ANGELS, IN ORDER TO RETURN TO THE FATHER AS SOULS,AND FLESH BEINGS.

THE PROCESS:

So we as FLESH only are the substance of those angels transformed through the evolution in creation. THE PRE-ADAMITES BEASTS.

As SOULS we are the substance of Jesus’ spirit. created PURPOSELY AS A MEDIATOR BETWEEN THE SINFULL FLESH BODY AND THE HOLY GHOST  for the first time in Adam. THE LAST  OF THE PRE ADAMITES TRANSFROMED BY GOD IN THE FIRST HUMAN .

THE HOLY GHOST WITHOUT THE SOUL WOULD HAVE DESTROYED A HUMAN BODY IN NO TIME.

From the other hand Satan's spirit would abide for a very long time, since he is sinfull. The reason why Adam lived nearly 1000 years. THE PRE ADAMITES LIVED AT LEAST 2000 YEARS AND ONLY EITHER KILLED,OR GONE EXTINCT IN ORDER TO EVOLVE AGAIN IN A NEW CREATURE (JESUS SPIRIT PROCESS THE FIRST BORN OF EVERY CREATURE).

So God had Jesus spirit as souls to glorify with in humans ,through Adam.

Lucifer believed that he had the flesh to glorify with in humans, through Eve,

Adam sinned through Eve’s weakness through Satan’s test.

Both Adam(symb. soul) and Eve(symb. flesh) became the property of Lucifer/Satan

Quote

, it was very good.      I don't believe fallen angels would be considered good.

IF I ASK YOU TO GIVE PROOF TO WHAT GOD IS REFERRING TO WITH THAT SENTENCE ,YOU WOULD NOT.

I FROM THE OTHER HAND AND ALSO SINCE YOU CONCLUDED THAT I AM IMAGINING THINGS TELL YOU, THAT GOD WAS REFERRING TO THE PROCESS ACCORDING TO THE CIRCUMSTANCES AND TO THE NEW PRICIPLES IN RELATION TO WHAT HAPPENED IN GENESIS 1:2 SINCE THERE WAS NO HARMONY LIKE IN GENESIS 1:1.

ALSO THE WORD, “GOOD” WAS USED  FROM GENESIS 1: 10  ,AND ONLY IN THE LAST PARAGRAPH HE USED THE WORDS      “VERY GOOD”.  

WHY??

WHEN THE JUDGE SENDS A CRIMINAL TO JAIL HE ALSO SAY GOOD, OR VERY GOOD ,BUT HE WOULD NOT BE REFERRING TO THE ACTION ITSELF  OF SENDING A PERSON TO JAIL,WHICH IS ALWAYS WRONG.

BUT TO THE ACTUAL VERDICT BY HIMSELF.  EVEN THE VICTIMS,AND SOCIATY WOULD SAY VERY GOOD, BUT AS JUSTICE  IS CONCERNED.

Therefore from Genesis 1: 3, onwards, commenced the process  of punishment, of Lucifer and his angels, in order to return to the Father.

John 4:34 Jesus saith to them: My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, that I may perfect his work.

Jesus above confirmed that very good in Genesis was not yet perfect, and TO FINISH,AND PUT TO PERFECTION GOD’S WORK HE HAD TO DIE FOR ALL’

SO  “VERY GOOD” WAS A REFERENCE TO THE PROCESS ITSELF WHICH INCLUDED THE EVIL CREATURES. US.

peace and love in Jesus

Charles

[Lightenup]

Charles,
Col 1:15 mentions that the Son is the Firstborn and firstborns must be begotten in order to be firstborns in the normal sense of the word. Begotten can certainly mean born, did you not know that? The other instances when someone is not technically the first to open the womb but takes the place of the actual one that was the first, in those cases it is made clear that the other offspring was designated and given the title. This was not the case with the only begotten. He did not take any one's place as a firstborn.

Your theory of satan's fall between verse 1 and 2 in Genesis is an example of you reading into scripture something that is not there. God made the heaven/s and the earth in v.1 yet we know that they were not in their habital form from what v 2 tells us. They were empty…void. I picture an analogy of God making the lego blocks (v.1) and they were in a heap on the floor (v.2) and the Son was begotten/born/brought forth from an already existence within the Father, (v. 3) and the Father put them together through the work of the Son. (day 2-6). Day 1, when light came, was before the foundation of the world which refers to the collecting of the seas and fixing their boundary which happened on day 3. Prov. 8:22 and following speaks of this.

Prov 8:22“The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,

before his deeds of old;

23I was appointed from eternity,

from the beginning, before the world began.

24When there were no oceans, I was given birth,

when there were no springs abounding with water;

25before the mountains were settled in place,

before the hills, I was given birth,

26before he made the earth or its fields

or any of the dust of the world.

27I was there when he set the heavens in place,

when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,

28when he established the clouds above

and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,

29when he gave the sea its boundary

so the waters would not overstep his command,

and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.

30Then I was the craftsman at his side.

I was filled with delight day after day,

rejoicing always in his presence,

31rejoicing in his whole world

and delighting in mankind.

God bless,
Kathi

[carmel]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 18 2012,13:41)

Charles, The other instances when someone is not technically the first to open the womb but takes the place of the actual one that was the first, in those cases it is made clear that the other offspring was designated and given the title. This was not the case with the only begotten. He did not take any one's place as a firstborn. Your theory of satan's fall between verse 1 and 2 in Genesis is an example of you reading into scripture something that is not there. God made the heaven/s and the earth in v.1 yet we know that they were not in their habital form from what v 2 tells us. They were empty…void. I picture an analogy of God making the lego blocks (v.1) and they were in a heap on the floor (v.2) and the Son was begotten/born/brought forth from an already existence within the Father, (v. 3) and the Father put them together through the work of the Son. (day 2-6). Day 1, when light came, was before the foundation of the world which refers to the collecting of the seas and fixing their boundary which happened on day 3. Prov. 8:22 and following speaks of this. Prov 8:22“The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 24When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, 31rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind. God bless, Kathi

Quote

Col 1:15 mentions that the Son is the Firstborn and firstborns must be begotten in order to be firstborns in the normal sense of the word. Begotten can certainly mean born, did you not know that?

Lightenup,

READ AND REFLECT

Psalms 2:7, “I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”

This passage saying Jesus was at one time non-existent, NO??

and in turn had to be brought into existence by the Father NO??

Or is this passage prophecying that at some time in the future, Christ will be “begotten” of the Father in some way.???

Note the following New Testament passage that actually refers to Psalms 2:7…

Acts 13:33, “God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that HE HATH RAISED UP JESUS AGAIN; as it is also written in the SECOND PSALM, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.”

SO!  According to Acts 13:33, Jesus was indeed “begotten” on the day He became THE FIRST FRUITS OF ALL THEM THAT SLEPT IN THE GRAVE !!!

This make perfect sense seeing how He was unable to be “begotten” into existence in any other sense of the word.

NOW READ YOURS AGAIN:

Col 1:15 mentions that the Son is the Firstborn ( OF THE DEAD)and firstborns must be begotten in order to be firstborns in the normal sense of the word.

Begotten can certainly mean born,(FROM THE DEAD THOUGH, NOT FROM HIS MOTHER'S WOMB) did you not know that?  

1 Corinthians 15:20, “But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”

PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS

CHARLES

[Lightenup]

Hi Charles,

you said:

Quote

Begotten can certainly mean born,(FROM THE DEAD THOUGH, NOT FROM HIS MOTHER'S WOMB) did you not know that?

Not so Charles, begotten certainly can mean born from the womb. Begotten certainly takes place on a specific day but usually that which is begotten was alive beforehand. Did Jesus exist before He was begotten from the dead…yes otherwise He wouldn't be considered dead.

See the Strong's definition 1080 which is the word translated as 'begotten' in Acts 13:33:

gennaó: to beget, to bring forth
Original Word: γεννάω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: gennaó
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-nah'-o)
Short Definition: I beget, bring forth, give birth to
Definition: I beget (of the male), (of the female) I bring forth, give birth to.

See here how many times Strongs 1080 is used, I have bolded them for you. Not once does it refer to being begotten from the dead.

Matt 1:2Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; 3And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; 4And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon; 5And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; 6And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias; 7And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa; 8And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias; 9And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias; 10And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias; 11And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:

And if that is not enough:

John 16:21
“Whenever a woman is in labor she has pain, because her hour has come; but when she gives birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish because of the joy that a child has been born into the world.

Charles, do you see the words 'has been born' there in John 16:21? That is also from Strong's 1080 which is translated as 'begotten' in Acts 13:33. Surely you realize that you are in error to make the claim that you made, right? Also, when a woman is in labor, there is a living child within her unless the child is stillborn. Therefore, before a child is begotten/born in this sense of the verse in John 16:21, there already existed a child…alive, within the mother.

Can you admit that you were in error with your thinking about the word 'begotten' as you claimed it can only mean born from the dead? It is not subjective but objectively obvious. Since you were in error regarding your above claim, then your understanding that you have come to needs to be revised.

Also, the term 'firstborn' in Col 1:15 refers to the 'firstborn of/over all creation' and doesn't say 'firstborn from the dead.' Jesus is first in all things as Col 1 speaks about and that means not only is He firstborn of/over all creation but also firstborn from the dead. Please realize that Jesus was the only begotten Son before He died.

Jesus was begotten before creation, He was also begotten from Mary, and also begotten from the dead. It was as the firstBORN that He created all things. Col 1:15-18 tells us that.

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him(the firstborn) all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

Blessings,
Kathi

[carmel]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 23 2012,12:32)

Hi Charles, you said: Quote Begotten can certainly mean born,(FROM THE DEAD THOUGH, NOT FROM HIS MOTHER'S WOMB) did you not know that?   Not so Charles, begotten certainly can mean born from the womb. Begotten certainly takes place on a specific day but usually that which is begotten was alive beforehand. Did Jesus exist before He was begotten from the dead…yes otherwise He wouldn't be considered dead. See the Strong's definition 1080 which is the word translated as 'begotten' in Acts 13:33: gennaó: to beget, to bring forth Original Word: γεννάω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: gennaó Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-nah'-o) Short Definition: I beget, bring forth, give birth to Definition: I beget (of the male), (of the female) I bring forth, give birth to. See here how many times Strongs 1080 is used, I have bolded them for you. Not once does it refer to being begotten from the dead. Matt 1:2Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; 3And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; 4And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon; 5And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; 6And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias; 7And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa; 8And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias; 9And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias; 10And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias; 11And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon: And if that is not enough: John 16:21 “Whenever a woman is in labor she has pain, because her hour has come; but when she gives birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish because of the joy that a child has been born into the world. Charles, do you see the words 'has been born' there in John 16:21? That is also from Strong's 1080 which is translated as 'begotten' in Acts 13:33. Surely you realize that you are in error to make the claim that you made, right? Also, when a woman is in labor, there is a living child within her unless the child is stillborn. Therefore, before a child is begotten/born in this sense of the verse in John 16:21, there already existed a child…alive, within the mother. Can you admit that you were in error with your thinking about the word 'begotten' as you claimed it can only mean born from the dead? It is not subjective but objectively obvious. Since you were in error regarding your above claim, then your understanding that you have come to needs to be revised. Also, the term 'firstborn' in Col 1:15 refers to the 'firstborn of/over all creation' and doesn't say 'firstborn from the dead.' Jesus is first in all things as Col 1 speaks about and that means not only is He firstborn of/over all creation but also firstborn from the dead. Please realize that Jesus was the only begotten Son before He died. Jesus was begotten before creation, He was also begotten from Mary, and also begotten from the dead. It was as the firstBORN that He created all things. Col 1:15-18 tells us that. 15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him(the firstborn) all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. Blessings, Kathi

Quote

Not so Charles, begotten certainly can mean born from the womb.

Lightenup,

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT JESUS, AND AS YOU KNOW AS PART OF HIS MISSION, JESUS CAME TO TEACH AND ESTABLISH THE GENUINE SPIRITUAL BELIEF, AND YOU ARE SIMPLY ACTING LIKE NICODEMUS.

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

The above is clear enough that it is referring to a SPRITUAL BIRTH.

But it couldn’t have been possible for us to achieve that kind of SPIRITUAL BIRTH which Jesus is referring to, which is through baptism, and faith in Jesus, if Jesus Himself ,was not born as a begotten both through THE HOLY SPIRIT IN Mary as SON OF MAN , and also AS SON OF GOD.

SO HE WAS BEGOTTEN BOTH CARNAL AND SPIRITUAL.

This He did in order to destroy BOTH the LAST carnal being BORN UNDER SATAN’S DOMINION, which obviously represented our own sinful substance, NOT HIS, and to destroy Satan's spirit within our soul and in the entire nature. Also REBORN AGAIN as a begotten BOTH WITH A SPIRITUAL AND FLESH BODY.

Jesus,was the LAST to be both born and die in Satan’s grip IN ORDER  to be also the FIRST AND ONLY to die for ALL and REBORN FOR ALL as a begotten Son IN SPIRIT AND IN FLESH.

Acts 13:33, “God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.”

Hebrews 2: 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Now to remind you what happened when Jesus died, read and reflect:

Matthew27:Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

So briefly, as soon as Jesus died, earthquakes and all its common elements occurred.

There were graves which opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.

The curtain split from top to bottom.

Now, did you ever reflected about all this and also to be aware why it happened?? most probably not enough otherwise, you wouldn't have  stated, with every respect such poor definition regarding BIRTH, I MEAN SPIRITUAL BIRTH, WHICH JESUS CAME PUPOSELY TO :

SO TO CLARIFY THINGS FOR YOU, I HUMBLY SAY:

The world was SPIRITUALLY BORN ANEW IMMEDIATELY ON HIS DEATH DUE TO THE ELIMINATION OF SATAN’S SPIRIT,THEREFORE HIS SPIRIT BECAME THE SOLE PROPRIETOR. THIS WAS DEMONSTRATED BY THE SPLITTING OF THE CURTA
IN IN THE HOLY OF HOLIES TO MAKE US AWARE THAT HE IS NO LONGER HIDDEN WITHIN LUCIFER’S/ SATAN SPIRIT. SINCE GENESIS 1:3  

THE PROOF THAT THE WORLD BECAME SPIRITUALLY BORN ANEW THERFORE SINLESS, THEREFORE SPIRITUALLY VIRGIN , ARE ALL THOSE WHO CAME OUT OF THE GRAVES WHO WERE SAINTS TO MAKE US AWARE THAT THE EARTH GAVE LIFE FROM THEN ON. HOW COME THE EARTH GAVE LIFE FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER???

OBVIOUS !! AFTER ADAM SIN THE EARTH BECAME CURSED,AND HUMANS SIMPLY DIED, BURRIED, AND THEIR SOUL,SINCE IT WAS DEAD IN SATAN’S SPIRIT WENT STRAIGHT TO HELL, and the corrupted body became dust.TOTAL LOSS.

Hebrews 2:15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

So it is clear no!! from Jesus onwards ,all those who believe in Him in the truth, there’s no fear IN DEATH anymore, simply because what happen is that the soul will go straight in front of Jesus to be judged. So the soul  is no more dead,so WHILE THE BODY IS BURRIED IN the earth, it means to become alive in the spirit, REBORN SPIRITUALLY. since before it was dead.

The flesh eventually would be transformed and unite with the respective soul on the last day. So nothing would be lost,although it is burried. Therefore being burried in the earth mean, REBORN the opposite way of what it was.

Through Satan’s spirit humans died forever.

Through Jesus Spirit HUMANS REBORN IN A NEW SPIRITUAL LIFE FOREVER.

THE SECOND ADAM IS A LIFE GIVING SPIRIT.

SO JESUS AS THE FIRST EVER WHO DIED CPMPRESSED WITH ALL THE SINS OF THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE WORLD,WAS BURRIED  INTO A BRAND NEW GRAVE, INTO A SPITIUALLY BORN ANEW EARTH, PURPOSELY FOR JESUS TO BE BORN FROM THE SPIRITUAL WOMB OF THE EARTH.

SO AS YOU SAID:

begotten certainly can mean born from the womb.

JESUS WAS BORN AGAIN FROM THE WOMB!!

BUT OF THE EARTH,AND ALSO SPIRITUALLY VIRGIN SINCE HE WAS THE FIRST TO BE BORN FROM IT,AND REMAINED ON EARTH FOR 40 DAYS  PURPOSELY TO MAKE US AWARE THAT THERE'S NO FEAR OF DEATH ANYMORE BECAUSE AFTER ALL IT IS NOT A DEATH BUT A NEW BIRTH.

I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST. THE BEGINNING AND THE END.

PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS

CHARLES

[Lightenup]

Charles,

Jesus was begotten spiritually before the ages and had existed before He was begotten within the Father. In Mary He was begotten carnally.

[carmel]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 26 2012,10:24)

Charles, Jesus was begotten spiritually before the ages and had existed before He was begotten within the Father. In Mary He was begotten carnally.

Quote

Jesus was begotten spiritually before the ages and had existed before He was begotten within the Father. In Mary He was begotten carnally.

Lightenup,

HUMBLY SPEAKING

Jesus as begotten, and also as you said firstborn, WAS SO every time a new creature was created right from the very first instant of creation, and the last time when He resurrected as the firstborn of the dead!! Also begotten since He was the first born of the dead, BY THE FATHER THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT

THAT'S WHY HE IS THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE!!!

JESUS WAS THE LAST PERSON THAT DIED POSSESSED BY SATAN’S SPIRIT, AND THE FIRST PERSON THAT BORN THROUGH IT GLORIFIED!!

A COMPLETE TRANSFORMATION.

1 Corinthians 11:14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

SO every first EVER spiritual action in creation was being manifested in NATURE through Jesus as the FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE!! And ALSO BEGOTTEN.SINCE THE ACTION CAME FROM GOD TROUGH JESUS BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

THAT’S WHY THE BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER!!

God through Jesus’ Spirit created our world through ONE  process which included BOTH (MATTER) CARNAL AND ( SPIRIT) SOUL

So the process involved both the evolution of the carnal being and the spirit being within.

Scientists would never be able to discover the spirit process, that’s why they are insinuating that humans came from apes, and they believe that they would eventually discover the truth through the process of nature which is not possible, since it is a spiritual function. In fact science had concluded that the change happened in a SUDDEN,NOT GRADUALLY. A compete TRANSFORMATION

. READ AND REFLECT

Titus 3:5……….. by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

NOTICE THE WASHING OF REGENARATION,AND RENWING OF THE HOLY GHOST. THIS WAS ALWAYS THE PROCESS IN CREATION!!

At first, during creation,  there were only spirits in the entire creatures, but since these creatures were initiated first through Satan’s spirit, always  through Jesus’ power within him, they were totally evil. Then God through Jesus’ Spirit, with the power of the Holy Spirit had changed them after their extinction, and recreated them more perfect in a twinkling of an eye.  COMPLETE TRANSFORMATION.

. THIS IS THE MOST MYSTERIOUS TRANSCENDENT ACT OF LOVE THROUGH CHARITY WHICH ONLY GOD COULD PERFORM.

The beauty of this process was that WHAT IT TOOK LUCIFER  MILLIONS OF YEARS TO ACHIEVE THROUGH NATURE SINCE IT IS HIS MATERIAL WORLD, always under the impression that he created it,

Jesus' spirit transformed it in a twinkling of an eye by the power of the Holy Spirit, TO  PERFECT IT. This to make Lucifer aware that.

THE FATHER IS THE TRUE GOD!! ONLY HE CREATES.

This is the process which is used throughout scripture,

FIRST THE NEGATIVE  DEED , AND THEN THE POSITIVE DEED, TO PERFECT IT. I LET YOU DISCOVER THIS PROCESS YOURSELF WHILE READING SCRIPTURES. BUT TO INSTIGATE INTEREST, I MENTION:

GENESIS 1:2 FIRST DARKNESS, 1:3 THEN LIGHT

GENESIS 1:5 AND THE EVENING AND THE MORNING WERE THE FIRST DAY.

THIS TO MAKE US AWARE OF THE PROCESS,THAT GOD CREATED (TRANSFORMED ALL WHAT HE HIMSELF MADE THROUGH SATAN'S WILL)SYMBOLIZED IN EVENING,SINCE IT IS MOVING INTO NIGHT,THEN MORNING SINCE IT IS MOVING INTO A NEW DAY,A NEW PERFECT CREATION BY GOD.

GENESIS 1: 26 AND GOD SAID ,LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE.

GENESIS 1:27 SO GOD CREATED MAN IN HIS OWN IMAGE.

Notice first He said:  LET US MAKE,  using THE PLURAL TO MAKE US AWARE THAT THERE IS MORE THAN GOD'S SPIRIT AT WORK,WHICH DEFINITELY REFERS TO SATAN’S SPIRIT WORK IN NATURE, THE NEGATIVE SOURCE.

THEN IN 27 He said: GOD CREATED,  so only GOD'S SPIRIT is involved SINCE HE CREATED.

GENESIS 2: 1Thus the heavens and the earth were FINISHED (GENESIS 1:1 SAYS  HEAVEN SINCE LUCIFER WAS IN HARMONY WITH GOD AND THERE WAS NOT OUR WORLD IN A BAD STATE YET,THEREFORE TO BE RECREATED NOT PART OF GOD’S KINGDOM,AND OWN A HEAVEN SPICIFICALLY FOR THE WORLD WHICH IS OUR SKY),

and all the host of them.2And on the seventh day God ENDED his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3And God BLESSED the seventh day, and SANCTIFIED it: because that in it he had RESTED from ALL his work which God CREATED  and MADE.

Notice : In 1, He confirmed that they were finished on the sixth day, but ONLY through Satan’s participation.

In 2: He said on the seventh day GOD ENDED HIS WORK,

how many times He ends His work?? It was finished on the sixth BUT ONLY through Satan then. THAT’S WHY IT WAS ONLY VERY GOOD, NOT YET PERFECT!!!

Notice: ended his work WHICH HE HAS MADE; Also notice the emphasis, TWICE HE SAID :

 which he had made,

NOT CREATED. and then He rested .

So on the seventh day God ENDED HIS WORK WHICH WAS THE TRASFORMATION OF WHATEVER HE HIMSELF DID THROUGH SATAN.

So this to make us aware of Satan’s participation, and also that he(Satan) is not going to be involved ANY MORE, since creation is complete.

THAT’S WHY IT ENDED ON THE SIXTH DAY, THE NUMBER OF SATAN:

666 WHICH CORRISPONDS TO THE SPIRIT, SOUL,  AND BODY  OF ADAM AS SATAN’S FIRST MAN THROUGH SIN.

Rev:13:18……… for it is the number of a MAN; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six..

AND FROM THEN ON ONLY GOD WOULD REMAIN AT WORK TO KEEP ALL CREATURES ALIVE(including Satan) IN JESUS' SPIRIT through the power of the HOLY SPIRIT

As conclusion and also to make it clear what God did, In 3, He said: GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY ,AND SANCTIFIED IT.

 HOW???

SIMPLE: HE CREATED ALL PERFECT ,Then He said : That in it He had rested from ALL HIS WORK which God CREATED and MADE!!!!

So God was at work on the SABATH TRANSFORMING INTO PERFECT WORK WHAT HE HIMSELF MADE THROUGH THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT  BY JESUS’SPIRIT WITHIN SATAN.

GENESIS4:1 AND BARE CAIN,AND SAID I HAVE GOTTEN A MAN FROM THE LORD,

2 AND SHE AGAIN BARE HIS BROTHER ABEL.

FIRST THE SON OF SATAN CAIN

THEN THE SON OF GOD ABEL.

GENESIS 4:17 AND CAIN KNEW HIS WIFE;

FIRST THE GENERATIONS OF CAIN THE EVIL ONE, THEN THE GENERATIONS OF SETH. THE RIGHTEOUS ONE.

So the above scriptures are to make YOU aware that when you read scriptures READ, and use both eyes of negative and positive, because only through DARKNESS LIGHT SHINES!!
   

SO THE FACT THAT SCRIPTURE SAYS :

“GOD CREATED AND MADE”

IS TO MAKE US AWARE THAT ALTHOUGH IT WAS ONE PROCESS, IN REALITY,THERE WERE TWO PROCESSES GOING ON, A MATERIAL VISIBLE ONE, WHICH IS NOT THE TRUTH ONE (POOR SCIENCE) THROUGH SATANS' THE LIAR, UNFORTUNATELY, WITH JESUS' POWER WITHIN AS NEGATIVE SOURCE,AND ONE  SPIRITUAL ONE ,THE TRUTH, WHICH REMAINS A MYSTERY, THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT IN JESUS’ SPIRIT AS POSITIVE SOURCE , BUT BOTH BY GOD ALMIGHTY.

ONE SOWS,AND ONE REAPS

SO WHEN JESUS CAME BACK TO LIFE HE BECAME THE FIRSTBORN AND BEGOTTEN OF  BOTH AS SPIT
IUAL AND CARNAL BEING.

THE FIRST EVER SPIRITUAL FLESH BEING.

AND WHEN YOU REFLECT ALL WHAT GOD DID WAS,THAT HE REPEATED THE SAME PROCESS,WHICH HE DID THROUGHOUT CREATION,OBVIOUS WITH THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN JESUS.

John4:36 36And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together. 37And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth. 38I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours.

TO CONCLUDE:

Reflect on these scriptures

1Corinthians 15 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God: neither shall corruption possess incorruption.

1John 5:6 This is he that came by water(SPIRIT)  and blood (MATTER), Jesus Christ: not by water only,(SPIRIT ONLY NOTICE THE EMPHASIS) but by water and blood.

MY QUESTION IS

HOW COME THE BLOOD CANNOT POSSESS THE KINGDOM OF GOD,AND IN THE SAME TIME JESUS CAME DOWN FROM HAEVEN IN:

WATER AND BLOOD???

Why an element, the BLOOD came down from heaven, and cannot go back to heaven.???

IT ISN'T OBVIOUS THAT THE BLOOD IS NOT AN ELEMENT OF GOD, THEREFORE EVIL??

IT ISN'T OBVIOUS THAT SINCE JESUS CAME DOWN IN WATER AND BLOOD, SIGNIFIES THAT LIGHT(JESUS'SPIRIT) SHINES WITHIN DARKNESS(SATAN'S SPIRIT) AND CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN AS A LIGHTENING,TO CREATE OUR WORLD.
IN BOTH

SPIRIT (WATER)AND MATTER(BLOOD).

PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS

CHARLES

[Ed J]

Quote (carmel @ May 24 2012,07:29)

SO TO CLARIFY THINGS FOR YOU, I HUMBLY SAY: The world was SPIRITUALLY BORN ANEW IMMEDIATELY ON HIS DEATH DUE TO THE ELIMINATION OF SATAN’S SPIRIT… PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS CHARLES

Hi Charles,

Lucifer's spirit was definitely removed from God's Spirit
at Jesus' death when he cried out “IT IS FINISHED”!

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.org

[carmel]

Quote (Ed J @ June 05 2012,18:05)

Quote (carmel @ May 24 2012,07:29) SO TO CLARIFY THINGS FOR YOU, I HUMBLY SAY: The world was SPIRITUALLY BORN ANEW IMMEDIATELY ON HIS DEATH DUE TO THE ELIMINATION OF SATAN’S SPIRIT… PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS CHARLES Hi Charles, Lucifer's spirit was definitely removed from God's Spirit at Jesus' death when he cried out “IT IS FINISHED”! Your brother in Christ, Jesus. Ed J (Joshua 22:34) holycitybiblecode.org

Quote

Hi Charles, Lucifer's spirit was definitely removed from God's Spirit at Jesus' death when he cried out “IT IS FINISHED”!

Edj,

Humbly speaking:

Hereunder are the last four sentences, by Jesus on the cross which they are a reference exactly to what happened through them, the way they have been revealed to me by the Holy Spirit.

We all know that God the Father is superior to Satan’s spirit, and that on its own, is sufficient to conclude that, with every respect to what you said, it was not possible that SATAN /LUCIFER WAS IN GOD.

Now read:

1John 1:5: This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him IS NO DARKNESS AT ALL  

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and HADTH NOTHING IN ME.

So from the above IT HAS DEFINITELY NEVER OCURRED.

We also know that Satan’s power was always subject to God for the simple reason that ALL CONSIST IN JESUS SPIRIT, and God functioned ONLY through Jesus’ Spirit by the power of the Holy Spirit. in order to achieve Lucifer's will,OTHERWISE HE WOULD HAVE BEEN ANNIHILATED.

Colossians 1: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

The power of God radiates onto His creatures ONLY in relation to their love to Him.

So as I said in my previous post, since Lucifer/ Satan became God’s direct enemy, the only way for Satan, to possess power was through Jesus’ Spirit within Him, and this was only to respect Satan’s FREE will, like He respects our will as well, AND THROUGH IT GOD STILL MAKE US PERFECT NO MATTER HOW LONG. So through this concept it was God, rather through Jesus which was in Satan, not Satan /Lucifer in God.

Now to the first sentence

 THE FOURTH WORD  “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34

Here Jesus experienced for the first time ever the abandonment of His Father’s Spirit, which was vital,and to make us aware that THE FATHER COULD NEVER DWELL IN THE PRESENCE OF SATAN.

Through this act Jesus showed his utmost love for the simple reason that He Himself wanted to be so humiliated, and ended up AS A CRIMINAL,CURSED  without any kind of support from the Father.  He did it simply TO BE IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN, and through it He would redeem US, by being subject to Satan’s plan, his free will, and in order to confirm that good is superior to evil. Jesus was so an ordinary man at the very end, on His point of death, that He gave proof of it in the garden, when He preferred not to drink of that cup, and He was only doing it for His Father’s sake. WHY??

The Father could never experience such a terrible state, since He is God, but through Jesus He did, and became aware of what humans had been through from Adam’s sin.
Jesus was simply terrorized on His point of death knowing that He would be faced with such a horrible creature in every sense AND GO TO HELL, AND HUMANS KNEW AS WELL. SO FROM JESUS ONWARDS, THE FATHER IS AWARE OF ALL OUR EXPERIENCES WHATEVER THEY ARE, BUT SINCE JESUS ALTHOUGH BEING A MAN LIKE US, REMAINED IMMACULATE, AND STILL WAS EXECUTED BY MISTAKE, CURSED AS A CRIMINAL ON THE CROSS, THE LAMB OF GOD, THE FATHER TOLERATES AND WAIT FOR HIS SON’S VERDICT.

THE FIFTH WORD

“I thirst”
Gospel of John 19:28

Jesus Here was only thirsty for JUSTICE, since His Father left Him, and  He was more then ready to receive Satan’s spirit to take Him to hell.

THE SIXTH WORD  When Jesus had received the wine, he said,
“It is finished”;
and he bowed his head and handed over the spirit.
Gospel of John 19:30

The  words  “it is finished above means that Jesus is within Satan’s grip ,Satan is within Jesus soul, to take him to hell.

Jesus to commence our creation left the Father in WATER (Jesus’ spirit as energy) AND(within) BLOOD( Lucifer’s spirit as matter)

to recreate us spiritually through His death on the cross Jesus was again WATER( SOUL) and BLOOD(Lucifer’s spirit as matter ,FLESH BODY) MAN.

THE SEVENTH WORD  Jesus cried out in a loud voice,
“Father, into your hands I commend my spirit”:
Gospel of Luke 23:46

Through this sentence, Jesus simply left His soul under the care of the Holy Spirit from the Father.

If Jesus was terrorized before he died, Satan was terrorized as soon as Jesus died, simply because he knew that he is not capable to survive the test through the fire, and he was only hoping that Jesus was only a good prophet not the MESSIAH. THE SON OF GOD!!!

PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS

CHARLES

[Author]

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