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Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 24 2009,01:59) Catholic Apologist” Quote The Mosaic law WAS done away with at the cross. Those married to the law died to that spouse (Rom. 7:1-3) so they could be married to a new spouse: Christ.
I am going to say you are taking Paul literally as Jesus states that the Law would not disappear until heaven and earth did.
Judges 2:1(NIV) reads:
Quote The angel of the LORD went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land that I swore to give to your forefathers. I said, 'I will never break my covenant with you,
I am going to say that Paul was just stating the Law of Mosses was fulfilled by Jesus' death on the cross. A point I believe he was making to counter those foolish ones who were teaching you had to become a Jew in order to enter God's kingdom. Even according to the law of Mosses that teaching was nonsense.
When Paul went to Jerusalem James asked him to go through ritual cleansing to prove to his fellow Jews that he was still a Jew. The same was not requested of the Gentiles who were with them though James and the Council acknowledged they were part of the Kingdom of God.
I am fairly sure that if we went though the Law we would find that what was decided in the council of Jerusalem about Gentiles is already mentioned in the Law of Mosses.
Kerwin,Isn't baptism the same as the Jewish ritual cleansing?
Constitutionalist wrote:
Quote Isn't baptism the same as the Jewish ritual cleansing?
The Jews have a ritual cleaning to do with conversion or renewing your vows to God which is similar but not the same. This may be because the Jews and Christians has a split in the First and Second Centuries and the Jewish tradition like the Christian one may have been altered.
I have heard that the Jews of the Dead Sea scroll may have practice a baptism more similar to what some Christians do today and what scripture seems to hint at.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 24 2009,03:10) Constitutionalist wrote: Quote Isn't baptism the same as the Jewish ritual cleansing?
The Jews have a ritual cleaning to do with conversion or renewing your vows to God which is similar but not the same. This may be because the Jews and Christians has a split in the First and Second Centuries and the Jewish tradition like the Christian one may have been altered.
I have heard that the Jews of the Dead Sea scroll may have practice a baptism more similar to what some Christians do today and what scripture seems to hint at.
Well I do know that the Jewish Ritual Cleansing deals with the Nazarite vow/oath, but the Christian Baptizing is likened to it.Both are a purification, consecration, and dedication.
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 24 2009,17:14) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 24 2009,03:10) Constitutionalist wrote: Quote Isn't baptism the same as the Jewish ritual cleansing?
The Jews have a ritual cleaning to do with conversion or renewing your vows to God which is similar but not the same. This may be because the Jews and Christians has a split in the First and Second Centuries and the Jewish tradition like the Christian one may have been altered.
I have heard that the Jews of the Dead Sea scroll may have practice a baptism more similar to what some Christians do today and what scripture seems to hint at.
Well I do know that the Jewish Ritual Cleansing deals with the Nazarite vow/oath, but the Christian Baptizing is likened to it.Both are a purification, consecration, and dedication.
They have a lot of similarities. The biggest differences I know is that the baptizer in Jewish does not enter the water and the baptizee immerses themselves. In addition the baptizee may completely immerse themselves more than once. Other than that I believe the differences are minor though the Jews can be a bit more legalistic about the details.The Jewish conversion ceremony is done in living water like the Jordon river and therefore does not require a temple though Jewish synagogues often have a Mikvah included.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 25 2009,00:05) Hi K,
The Jordan is living water?
The Spirit is .[Jn7]
Do think Jesus was unaware of Jewish theology when he did his teachings while in his corrupt flesh? He was obviously speaking figuratively while Jewish theology is literal in the case of immersion. The two do not contradict anymore than saying that Jesus is the light conflicts with saying my room lamp is the light.I grew interested in this line of inquiry when I looked for the Jewish roots of Christianity and wonder how John the Baptist a Jew baptized his disciples. It seems to be the same ritual that the disciples of Jesus also practiced. What I found was the modern immersion ritual of the Jews and a third hand account of baptism among the Jews of the Dead Sea Scroll area. I compared hints from scripture and it appears as if the modern Jewish ritual has been altered from what is hinted at in scripture. I certainly would like scripture to be more explicit on the matter but God gives me the information that I need.
Kerwin
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 24 2009,15:06) Do think Jesus was unaware of Jewish theology when he did his teachings while in his corrupt flesh?
If Jesus flesh was corrupt, he could not have been the Lamb of God that took away our sin on calvary!WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 25 2009,02:43) Kerwin Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 24 2009,15:06) Do think Jesus was unaware of Jewish theology when he did his teachings while in his corrupt flesh?
If Jesus flesh was corrupt, he could not have been the Lamb of God that took away our sin on calvary!WJ
I think you are taking what I wrote out of context. We currently have a corrupt body but we will be resurrected in an incorruptible body.I suppose if I used the word perishable is would have been more clear.
God is not concerned about our flesh but rather about our “conduct” and Jesus has never sinned.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 25 2009,07:43) Kerwin Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 24 2009,15:06) Do think Jesus was unaware of Jewish theology when he did his teachings while in his corrupt flesh?
If Jesus flesh was corrupt, he could not have been the Lamb of God that took away our sin on calvary!WJ
You do believe that Jesus's flesh was corrupted, don't you believe it took on the sins of the world and therefore would be the most corrupt flesh of all time?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 25 2009,02:52) Hi K,
So why do you call the tainted Jordan waters LIVING?
I do not believe polution is an issue. If you wish to hear the legalities then look here.Hi K,
The waters of the Jordan are no more living than my tapwater.
Just because Jesus and Paul spoke so much about the Law to Israelites does not mean the OT laws were being applied to us.would love move his neigbors boundries? neither does the law. would love covent? neither does the law, the law of love you speak of is the same law written prior, instead of paper or stone, it has been spoken and written in flesh.
would love sacrifice, Christ has fullfilled this law of love.
TO ALL………if the law (commandments) have been done away with the why does LOVE (FULFILL) THE LAW. Why fulfill anything if it has been done away with?. Thats the way (LAW) works through (FORCED COMPLIANCE THROUGH THE MEDIUM OF FEAR) that is what HAS BEEN DONE AWAY WITH AND REPLACED WITH THE (LAW) OF THE SPIRIT (INTELLECT) given to us by GOD. Not (ONE) commandment has ever been done away with. Paul's argument was to show How they are Kept, not through the (works of law) but through the spirit of GOD, that writes them on our hearts and minds, true righteousness IS A CREATION OF GOD IN US. By FAITH we recieve this GRACE, (GOD'S INFLUENCING ON THE HEART AND MINDS). THE LOVE OF OR FROM GOD SHED AROUND IN OUR HEARTS AND MIND, THIS KEEP ALL THE LAW PERFECTLY. None of the ten commandments are or ever will be done away with , they will all be fulfilled in us all.
Jesus said “whosoever breaks the lest of these commandments and teach others to will be called lest in the kingdom of GOD”. We need to all think about that. IMO
peace and love to all……………..gene
Quote (Gene @ Oct. 25 2009,13:31) TO ALL………if the law (commandments) have been done away with the why does LOVE (FULFILL) THE LAW. Why fullfill anything if it has been done away with?. The way (LAW) works through (FORCED COMPLIANCE THROUGH THE MEDIUM OF FEAR) HAS BEEN DONE AWAY WITH AND REPLACED WITH THE (LAW) OF THE SPIRIT (INTELLECT) given to us by GOD. Not (ONE) commandment has ever been done away with. Paul's argument was to show How they are Kept, not through the (works of law) but through the spirit of GOD, that writes them on our hearts and minds, true righteousness IS A CREATION OF GOD IN US. By FAITH we recieve this GRACE, (GOD'S INFLUENCING ON THE HEART AND MINDS). THE LOVE OF OR FROM GOD SHED AROUND IN OUR HEARTS AND MIND, THIS KEEP ALL THE LAW PERFECTLY. None of the ten commandments are or ever will be done away with , they will all be fulfilled in us all. Jesus said “whosoever breaks the lest of these commandments and teach others to will be called lest in the kingdom of GOD”. We need to all think about that. IMO
peace and love to all……………..gene
Gene,
The letter of the law has been done away. Paul said that the “letter kills, but the spirit gives life” (2 Corinthians 3).thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 25 2009,14:30) Quote (Gene @ Oct. 25 2009,13:31) TO ALL………if the law (commandments) have been done away with the why does LOVE (FULFILL) THE LAW. Why fullfill anything if it has been done away with?. The way (LAW) works through (FORCED COMPLIANCE THROUGH THE MEDIUM OF FEAR) HAS BEEN DONE AWAY WITH AND REPLACED WITH THE (LAW) OF THE SPIRIT (INTELLECT) given to us by GOD. Not (ONE) commandment has ever been done away with. Paul's argument was to show How they are Kept, not through the (works of law) but through the spirit of GOD, that writes them on our hearts and minds, true righteousness IS A CREATION OF GOD IN US. By FAITH we recieve this GRACE, (GOD'S INFLUENCING ON THE HEART AND MINDS). THE LOVE OF OR FROM GOD SHED AROUND IN OUR HEARTS AND MIND, THIS KEEP ALL THE LAW PERFECTLY. None of the ten commandments are or ever will be done away with , they will all be fulfilled in us all. Jesus said “whosoever breaks the lest of these commandments and teach others to will be called lest in the kingdom of GOD”. We need to all think about that. IMO
peace and love to all……………..gene
Gene,
The letter of the law has been done away. Paul said that the “letter kills, but the spirit gives life” (2 Corinthians 3).thinker
Then by all accounts the Law remains whether in letter or spirit, for we cannot say do not kill according to the letter without saying the same according to the spirit.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 25 2009,07:11) Hi K,
The waters of the Jordan are no more living than my tapwater.
Just because Jesus and Paul spoke so much about the Law to Israelites does not mean the OT laws were being applied to us.
Jesus and Paul stated they are applied to Christians. Paul even listed them in several areas. The Council of Jerusalem even wrote a summary of which ones applied to the Gentiles. It just appears you may not know much about the Law.The Council at Jerusalem addressed prohibited certain sexual relations and speaking about the same subject the Law Mosses states.
Leviticus 18:24-28(NIV) reads:
Quote ” 'Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.
I certainly have some question because the prohibition of yeast during the Passover period and the command to celebrated the Sabbath are both leveled against the Alien and yet appear to me to be Jewish customs God established. The rest of the restrictions I have found that are addressed to Aliens seem to be consistent with living by the Spirit.
Hi KW,
Where did Jesus and Paul say these things?
Both spent much time in discussion with the Jews about their law.
But neither applied the OT to gentiles as it is opposite to the new inner law of the Spirit-love.Gal3:1–Oh foolish Galations, who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth. Did you recieve the Spirit by works of the law or by the hearing withfaith? Those under the works of the Law are under a curse! Why would anyone refuse the Truth and go back to the works of the Law? Matt5:17—Think not that I am come to (destroy–same greek word used, Luke9:12 that was translated, “lodge or stay in”) stay in the Law, but to fulfill (bring to full completion)!
Matt 11:13—all the law and the prophets prophesied UNTIL John—
Luke 16:16—the law and the prophets were UNTIL John, SINCE THEN the Kingdom of God is preached—
Gal 3:19—the law was added UNTIL the seed (Jesus) should come–
If you follow any part of the law you are responsible for following the whole law and the sacrifice of Jesus is of no effect! Now you all choose how you want to believe. Follow the masses who follow the law still and end in death/destruction or follow Jesus and be sanctified and cleansed through him by faith apart from works. No one will be justified by the Law! Beware if you are tithing by law or honoring a particular sabbath day. If so you better make the necessary sacrifices for cleansing by law! TK
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