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Quote (Gene @ Sep. 30 2009,15:19) Thinker…………So there is a before and after in your theology, of Jesus' powers, So now people come to Jesus with out the drawing of the Spirit of GOD right, Just the idea that Jesus was raised does it right, We no longer need the SPIRIT of GOD to GUIDE us, we just look up in the air at the risen Christ and that is it right. Again trinitarian garbage trying to elevate Jesus it the Position of GOD the Father HIMSELF. In fact to the exclusion of the FATHER, because he is no longer need in you theology. gene
Gene,
Of course there is a before and after. Otherwise Christ's exaltation means nothing. Do you think that the Father seated Christ at His right hand so He could have company while He watches what goes on down here? You refer only to statements that applied to Christ BEFORE He was exalted. Jesus was subservient to the Father's will before He was exalted but not afterwards.Are you going to deal with the John 12 text or not? Jesus said that if He was lifted up that He would draw all men unto Himself. Before His exaltation He was bound to save only those who the Father drew to Him. Not one more! Now that He has ALL authority He IS SOVEREIGN AND FREE to draw any man He so chooses to Himself and the Father is fine with it. The Father did not exalt Him and then say, “Oh, btw, You still cannot save anyone without My permission.”
Jesus clearly said that He could save “whom HE WILLS”:
Quote All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom THE SON WILLS TO REVEAL HIM (Matthew 11:27)
There it is Gene! The One you bad mouth revealed the Father to you according to His own will. Had Jesus not been exalted He would still be subservient to save only those the Father chose to give Him. How do you know the Father would have drawn you to Christ? We cannot answer this because we were not living when Christ was subservient to the Father. We live on the side of Christ's exaltation when He may save whom HE WILLS!You may not have been included if you were living then Gene. There were many people that Jesus wanted to save that were not included by the Father. For the Father did not love as many people as Christ loved. Jesus wanted to save the same stiffnecked Jews whom the Father chose not to save (John 5:34 & 12:40). How could the Father have loved those that He Himself “blinded?” But Jesus obeyed and He saved only those whom the Father had given Him even though He desired the salvation of all. But now that He is exalted He may save “whom HE WILLS.”
You talk like Christ was never exalted Gene. You read the story of Jesus up to a certain point and then you close the book. Open up the book and keep reading.
thinker
Thinker………First of all you can not show me one place where i bad mouth Jesus. Secondly Jesus Himself said He could do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF, those are not MY word BUT HIS word that you seem to disbelieve. YOUR argument is not with Me but Jesus HIMSELF, YOU and CA and WJ, all create A GOD equal the the ALMIGHTY GOD the FATHER, and are IDOLATERS in so doing. GO read 2Ths 2 or the Post i wrote on the man of SIN. YOU False teachings Turn Jesus OUR Lord into a Man of SIN. “YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BESIDES ME” SAID THE ETERNAL GOD. You even deny the very words of the one you say is a GOD, He said in prayer “FOR THOU ARE THE (ONLY ) TRUE GOD. What part of (ONLY) (TRUE) you TRINITARIANS don't understand. So don't tell me I bad Mouth Jesus when it is you who does not believe what He plainly says. Thinker you and WJ and CA's teaching are TRINITARIAN GARBAGE and have nothing to do with Jesus' teachings. IMO
gene
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 01 2009,02:59) Quote (Gene @ Sep. 30 2009,15:19) Thinker…………So there is a before and after in your theology, of Jesus' powers, So now people come to Jesus with out the drawing of the Spirit of GOD right, Just the idea that Jesus was raised does it right, We no longer need the SPIRIT of GOD to GUIDE us, we just look up in the air at the risen Christ and that is it right. Again trinitarian garbage trying to elevate Jesus it the Position of GOD the Father HIMSELF. In fact to the exclusion of the FATHER, because he is no longer need in you theology. gene
Gene,
Of course there is a before and after. Otherwise Christ's exaltation means nothing. Do you think that the Father seated Christ at His right hand so He could have company while He watches what goes on down here? You refer only to statements that applied to Christ BEFORE He was exalted. Jesus was subservient to the Father's will before He was exalted but not afterwards.Are you going to deal with the John 12 text or not? Jesus said that if He was lifted up that He would draw all men unto Himself. Before His exaltation He was bound to save only those who the Father drew to Him. Not one more! Now that He has ALL authority He IS SOVEREIGN AND FREE to draw any man He so chooses to Himself and the Father is fine with it. The Father did not exalt Him and then say, “Oh, btw, You still cannot save anyone without My permission.”
Jesus clearly said that He could save “whom HE WILLS”:
Quote All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom THE SON WILLS TO REVEAL HIM (Matthew 11:27)
There it is Gene! The One you bad mouth revealed the Father to you according to His own will. Had Jesus not been exalted He would still be subservient to save only those the Father chose to give Him. How do you know the Father would have drawn you to Christ? We cannot answer this because we were not living when Christ was subservient to the Father. We live on the side of Christ's exaltation when He may save whom HE WILLS!You may not have been included if you were living then Gene. There were many people that Jesus wanted to save that were not included by the Father. For the Father did not love as many people as Christ loved. Jesus wanted to save the same stiffnecked Jews whom the Father chose not to save (John 5:34 & 12:40). How could the Father have loved those that He Himself “blinded?” But Jesus obeyed and He saved only those whom the Father had given Him even though He desired the salvation of all. But now that He is exalted He may save “whom HE WILLS.”
You talk like Christ was never exalted Gene. You read the story of Jesus up to a certain point and then you close the book. Open up the book and keep reading.
thinker
thinker What you are saying makes no sense. Jeus was with the Father before the world was, and that is what He is again.
That makes Him not equal with te Father, just because He became what He was before.
John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify Me together with the glory I had with Yourself before the world was.”
IreneHi thethinker:
The scriptures state “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes should not perish but have everlasting life”.
Did that change with Jesus exaltation to the head of the church?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Gene @ Oct. 01 2009,03:17) Thinker………First of all you can not show me one place where i bad mouth Jesus. Secondly Jesus Himself said He could do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF, those are not MY word BUT HIS word that you seem to disbelieve. YOUR argument is not with Me but Jesus HIMSELF, YOU and CA and WJ, all create A GOD equal the the ALMIGHTY GOD the FATHER, and are IDOLATERS in so doing. GO read 2Ths 2 or the Post i wrote on the man of SIN. YOU False teachings Turn Jesus OUR Lord into a Man of SIN. “YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BESIDES ME” SAID THE ETERNAL GOD. You even deny the very words of the one you say is a GOD, He said in prayer “FOR THOU ARE THE (ONLY ) TRUE GOD. What part of (ONLY) (TRUE) you TRINITARIANS don't understand. So don't tell me I bad Mouth Jesus when it is you who does not believe what He plainly says. Thinker you and WJ and CA's teaching are TRINITARIAN GARBAGE and have nothing to do with Jesus' teachings. IMO gene
Jesus said that he could do nothing of Himself BEFORE he was exalted. You did not deal with John 12:31. You say that the Father draws men to Christ now. But Jesus said that when He was lifted up that HE would do the drawing.It is you that does not believe Him. I believe that He was subservient when He was subserviant. i believe that all that he said of Himself as a servant was true when he was a servant. I believe that all that He said of Himself as exalted is true.
As servant: He saved only those who the Father drew to Him.
As Exalted: He draws and saves whomsoever He wills. (Matthew 11:27 & John 12:31).
thinker
p.s. Please send me a pm with a mailing address. I want to send you a case of Bic's White Out.
thinker
Quote (942767 @ Oct. 01 2009,14:40) Hi thethinker: The scriptures state “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes should not perish but have everlasting life”.
Did that change with Jesus exaltation to the head of the church?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
Show where the word “world” means everyone in scripture. It clearly does not. Do you just ignore the fact that Jesus wanted to save the Jewish leadership while the Father wanted to blind them?Jesus wanted to save the Jewish leadership, John 5:34:
“Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved.“
But the Father blinded them and Jesus could not save them, John 12:40:
He [the Father] has blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I [Jesus] should heal them.
If Jesus is still subservient to the Father's blinding of men, then why did He say that when He was lifted up that He would draw all men to Himself (John 12:31)?
And how can the Father blind people He loves?
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 06 2009,05:35) Hi TT,
Do you often sit in Judgement over the God of Jesus?
Nick,
I do not judge the Father. I am just pointing out that Jesus wanted to save people the Father did not want to save. When Jesus was subservient to the Father He was bound to save only those the Father gave Him. I have no problem with it.I do rejoice however that Jesus may save whomsoever HE WILLS now that He has been exalted. All who are saved today are saved according to the will of Jesus. He willed to save you and yet you seem ungrateful.
thinker
Hi TT,
You should not try to divide between Jesus and His God as it weakens your speculative trinity idea.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 09 2009,05:32) Hi TT,
You should not try to divide between Jesus and His God as it weakens your speculative trinity idea.
“All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son WILLS to reveal Him”Explain how the Father and the Son are divided by what I say. And do you appreciate the Son for revealing His Father to you?
thinker
Hi TT,
Exactly.
God exalted His Son.
They are two and two who are united in will and purpose and spirit.Nick originally said:
Quote Hi TT,
You should not try to divide between Jesus and His God as it weakens your speculative trinity idea.thethinker replied:
Quote Explain how the Father and the Son are divided by what I say. Now Nick says:
Quote Exactly.
God exalted His Son.
They are two and two who are united in will and purpose and spirit.So what I say does not divide them? Thank you for your concession.
thinker
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