Did God create all things through the Lord Jesus Christ?

[Proclaimer]

Anyway, the topic at hand is ‘Did God create all things through the Lord Jesus Christ?’.

If you don’t think so then say why and give an explanation.

There are other topics that might be closer to your New Testament doesn’t match the Old Testament argument. But to put in a final word on that. Why don’t you argue that Moses doesn’t match Abraham or the Angel of YHWH doesn’t match Isaiah. I am sure your mind could conceive of many things like that. Dream away.

[gadam123]

Believers do not believe because of the book, they believe because they have a personal faith in God that is real. The book is there to guide us and teach us about doctrine and other things. It contains history, law, teachings, prophecy, and revelation.

Hi Proclaimer, thanks for your replies to my post. I liked your above quote on belief. Yes a believer need not depend on any dogma or any doctrines and it’s purely the personal faith in God.

But I am sorry to comment on the NT writers and Christianity which tried to convince their Jewish audience to prove that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah by misquoting Hebrew Bible. And most of the Christian Forums are filled with these doctrinal arguments on Jesus. This is the fact. I hope you will understand my point here.

This is your problem Adam. Your natural mind is not designed to grasp the things of the Spirit. You need to be born from above. You will only venture to do so if you are serious about God. If not, then that is your choice. This is how it works. You can choose or you can reject.

It can apply to anyone here as no one is perfect. I am only a student of seeking truth in these ancient writings. I don’t differentiate whether it is Judaism or Christianity. As you rightly quoted above faith in God need not depend on what is written or debated. So please don’t judge anyone based on their arguments. It can apply to you too as you are also debating with others here based on your own convictions and beliefs.

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam……yes it certainly can ,  everyone here believes he or she is right, and are wrong in many things.  Proclaimer, put others down who disagrees with him,  and this is a man who believes all things were made through and by Jesus,  according him , but he doesn’t  even know , who or what Jesus was before his birth on this earth,  haven’t produced a shred of any activity of Jesus before his birth on this earth. Neither has the rest produced any evidence of any activity of Jesus before his birth on this earth either.

He like the rest of the trinitarians,  take one Greek word like  (dia) which appears 466 times is the New Testament,  as a “preposition”    (Shows reason for something).
Like the word through….the ground or reason by which something is done

1…by reason of,  2….on account of, 3…because of for this reason,  4….therefore,
5….of this account

All of these show , on the account of, or for the reason of,  but never saying  the person himself was the one “doing”  it. They add their own meanings to scriptures and force the text to say what in fact it is not saying.
They even use the reasonings of the blind Pharisees to back them up. Not even understanding Jesus spoke to those Jews in Parables so the wouldn’t understand what he actually meant. And they didn’t understand even to this very day. You need to understand that yourself also Adam .

peace and love to you and yours………gene

 

 

 

[gadam123]

All of these show , on the account of, or for the reason of,  but never saying  the person himself was the one “doing”  it. They add their own meanings to scriptures and force the text to say what in fact it is not saying.
They even use the reasonings of the blind Pharisees to back them up. Not even understanding Jesus spoke to those Jews in Parables so the wouldn’t understand what he actually meant. And they didn’t understand even to this very day. You need to understand that yourself also Adam .

Hello brother Gene, this is what I am questioning here on Jesus being involved in the creation of God. What exactly the NT writers meant by stating that “through him all things were created”? Some how these writers wanted to involve Jesus in God’s creation and Salvation process. This is the reason why they quoted in many place this way for example John 1:1-4, 1 Cor 8:6, Col 1:15-17, Heb 1:1-2 etc.

Please read the NT texts without bias you will realise these facts which I am pointing out here. Please don’t blame the translators solely because the final blame goes to the original writers only.

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam……..but you see Jesus is involved in the human creation, he is God perfection of his (God) the Father’s  “human” creation.   Jesus is the ultimate Goal for us all. He is what God the Father had in mind, before he ever created the earth and the things that are in it.  You see that is the point of the word (dia) , they falsely interpret as by, and through,  as meaning that Jesus created it all.

That was not what the true or original writers of the NT , were trying to get across , but false translators change the meaning of the actual text. So by you and the Jews taking what “they’,  the false translators are say as what the original writers meant to say, only shows they don’t understand the NT wording either.  And you by saying that the wrong way they translating it is the way the “original” writers of the text meant it to be understood, not only shows that That modern Christianity doesn’t understand it right , but also the Jews Don’t either, because they are saying that the way fallen Christianity understands it, is exactly the way they think the original writers wanted it to be understood.  Which proves to me they are as ignorant as the rest of the false teachers now are also. Get my point Adam.
you can’t come from two wrong stand points and think you are goin to get the right answer , you never will.

peace and love to you and yours Adam…………gene

[Proclaimer]

But I am sorry to comment on the NT writers and Christianity which tried to convince their Jewish audience to prove that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah by misquoting Hebrew Bible. And most of the Christian Forums are filled with these doctrinal arguments on Jesus. This is the fact. I hope you will understand my point here.

Let’s face it Adam. Jews had a problem with Moses did they not? They had a problem with the prophets did they not? They have a problem with Jesus do they not?

And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. ‘Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?’ They said to Him, ‘He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.’ Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
‘ The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the LORD’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’? “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

“If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 

‘O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Then Elijah said to the people, “I alone am left a prophet of the LORD; but Baal’s prophets are four hundred and fifty men.

Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

[gadam123]

Adam……..but you see Jesus is involved in the human creation, he is God perfection of his (God) the Father’s  “human” creation.   Jesus is the ultimate Goal for us all. He is what God the Father had in mind, before he ever created the earth and the things that are in it.  You see that is the point of the word (dia) , they falsely interpret as by, and through,  as meaning that Jesus created it all.

Hi brother Gene, I am sorry to say that you are basing your beliefs and arguments purely based on the NT writings. Where is it written in the Hebrew Bible that Jesus the so called Messiah was involved in the human creation? This is the imagination of the NT stating that he was the perfect creation of God and ultimate goal and so on..

I request you to come out of this leniency towards the NT writers otherwise you will not realise the truth behind their misconceptions on the Messiah. I guaranty you that you will be continuously kept aloof by the Trinitarian and even non-Trinitarians as being done here. If you are really interested to know about God and his Messiah you have to necessarily look to the Hebrew Bible and not the NT which came later with so much deviations.

Thank you and peace to you…..Adam

[Proclaimer]

Proclaimer, put others down who disagrees with him,

Or says it like it is and you don’t like what you read.

[Proclaimer]

Gene, you can continue with your false teaching or follow Adam who is putting a stumbling block before your feet.

Then again, you can just believe what is written and if you are not sure of it, ask God about it.

Faith in God is real. He really does communicate with us. I was an Atheist and prayed to God so I could disprove him once and for all. What I got in return was amazing and I was without excuse from that time on. And what a journey it has been for me. I can testify to that.

[gadam123]

Let’s face it Adam. Jews had a problem with Moses did they not? They had a problem with the prophets did they not? They have a problem with Jesus do they not?

Hi Proclaimer, so you don’t want leave the deviations on this topic? Who told you that Jews had problem with Moses? In fact the Christian writers like Paul and other had problem with Moses and his Law (as they often quoted). Yes they were not convinced with Jesus as their Messiah because they knew very well that there were many imposters of Messiah who did not fulfil the requirements for Messiah.

And it is marvelous in our eyes’? “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

The arguments you quoted here were purely the polemics against Jews at the time of these NT writers. In fact the promises given to God’s people are entirely different than as stated in the NT;

Please read Zech 8:

7 Thus says the Lord of hosts: I will save my people from the east country and from the west country; 8 and I will bring them to live in Jerusalem. They shall be my people and I will be their God, in faithfulness and in righteousness.

20 Thus says the Lord of hosts: Peoples shall yet come, the inhabitants of many cities; 21 the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, “Come, let us go to entreat the favor of the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts; I myself am going.” 22 Many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to entreat the favor of the Lord. 23 Thus says the Lord of hosts: In those days ten men from nations of every language shall take hold of a Jew, grasping his garment and saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”

The NT writers simply misquoted the Hebrew Bible and written against God’s people Israel.

This is the imagination of Christianity thinking that the Christianity has replaced physical Israel and their Torah which is eternal binding on God’s people.

[Proclaimer]

Hi Proclaimer, so you don’t want leave the deviations on this topic? Who told you that Jews had problem with Moses?

The Old Testament. Read about how they complained and wanted to return to Egypt. Read about the golden calf and how Moses broke the tablets. It wasn’t a bed of roses was it.

The crowd threatened to stone Moses and Aaron to death. But just then, the Lord appeared in a cloud at the sacred tent. 

The Lord said to Moses, “I have done great things for these people, and they still reject me by refusing to believe in my power. So they will no longer be my people. I will destroy them, but I will make you the ancestor of a nation even stronger than theirs.”

[gadam123]

The Old Testament. Read about how they complained and wanted to return to Egypt. Read about the golden calf and how Moses broke the tablets. It wasn’t a bed of roses was it.

You are simply quoting the negative behaviour of the people. There are plenty of such examples in the Hebrew Bible where God was angry with his people. It doesn’t mean they were having problem with Moses and his so called Law. Please leave out such non-connected arguments and concentrate on the topic.

[Proclaimer]

Seems like a consistent theme to me

1. The crowd threatened to stone Moses and Aaron to death. But just then, the Lord appeared in a cloud at the sacred tent.
2. At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

[GeneBalthrop]

TO all………God the Father created not a thing “through” or “by” anyone,  he did it “all”  for his own purposes and for his own reasons, and by his own power. That includes everything that exists,  both now and in the future .

God the Father takes full responsibility for , everything that exists,  this is shown by him offering up of his lamb, without blemish, Jesus Christ,  that was God’s payment for the sins of the whole world,  which he “caused”  to happen on this earth in the first place> There is nothing on this earth which God the Father , did not ““plan from the beginning to happen”  doesn’t it say,  “God knew the end from the beginning”>   to him that has ears to hear, let him hear

peace and love to you all and yours……….gene

 

[Berean]

Hi Gene

Yet IT IS WRITTEN IN Isaiah 9: 6

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace

[gadam123]

Yet IT IS WRITTEN IN Isaiah 9: 6

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace

Hi Berean, Isaiah 9:6 was never quoted in the NT for Jesus. It is the later interpretation of the Christianity for Jesus. In fact Isaiah 9:6 was about newly born prince Hezekiah who would be called a wonderful counselor.

Please go through this….

Isaiah is known for the method by which he presents many of his messages through the use of prophetic names (Isaiah 7:3, 14; 8:3). In the verse under study, the prophet expounds his message by formulating a prophetic name for Hezekiah. The words of this name form a sentence expressive of God’s greatness, which will become manifest in the benefits to be bestowed upon the future king in his lifetime. Thus, the name, though borne by the king, serves, in reality, as a testimonial to God. Hezekiah is called “a wonderful counselor” because this name is a sign, which foretells God’s design for him.

The Lord of hosts has sworn, saying: “As I have thought, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand, that I will break Asshur in My land, and upon My mountains trample him under foot; then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulder.” This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations. For the Lord of hosts has purposed, and who will annul it? And His hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back? (Isaiah 14:24-27)

Be not afraid of the words that you have heard, with which the servants of the king of Assyria have blasphemed Me. Behold, I will put a spirit in him, and he shall hear a rumor, and shall return to his own land; and I will cause him to fall by the sword in his own land. (Isaiah 37:6-7)

Hezekiah is called “the mighty God” because this name is a sign that foretells God’s defense of Jerusalem through the miraculous sudden mass death of Sennacherib’s army.

Therefore thus says the Lord concerning the king of Assyria: He shall not come to this city, nor shoot an arrow there, neither shall he come before it with shield, nor cast a mound against it. By the way that he came, by the same shall he return, and he shall not come to this city, says the Lord. For I will defend this city to save it, for My own sake, and for My servant David’s sake. (Isaiah 37:33-35)

Hezekiah is called “the everlasting Father” because this name is a sign, which foretells that God will add years to his life. “Go, and say to Hezekiah: Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; behold, I will add to your days fifteen years” (Isaiah 38:5). Hezekiah is called “the ruler of peace” because this name is a sign, which foretells that God would be merciful to him. Punishment for lack of faith in the Almighty will be deferred and peace granted during the last years of his rule. “Then said Hezekiah to Isaiah: ‘Good is the word of the Lord which you have spoken.’ He said moreover: ‘If but there shall be peace and security in my days'” (Isaiah 39:8). The fulfillment of the above-stated declarations is foretold in Isaiah 9:6, when, after the Assyrian defeat, Hezekiah’s glory increased and peace reigned for the rest of his life (2 Chronicles 32:23). Archaeologists have found that there was a sudden expansion of Judean settlements in the years following the fall of the northern kingdom. This indicates that many refugees fled south, thus giving added significance to the statement “that the government may be increased.” Hezekiah’s kingdom is declared to be forever, for through his efforts to cleanse the Temple ritual of idolatry, even though apostasy followed under his son Menasseh, the Davidic dynasty was once more confirmed as the only true kingly rule that God would accept over his people “from henceforth and forever.” The greatness of Hezekiah lies in his setting the stage for Israel’s future. Hezekiah was a true reformer. He cleansed religious worship of foreign influence, purged the palace and the Temple of images and pagan altars, and reestablished pure monotheistic religion. In the long run Hezekiah’s achievements would outlive him, leaving an everlasting, indelible impact on the history of his people. Thus, God, through Isaiah, bestows upon Hezekiah this name which honors the king by proclaiming the great things God will do for him, and, through him, for the people of Israel….(taken from the article by Gerald Sigal)

 

 

[Proclaimer]

TO all………God the Father created not a thing “through” or “by” anyone, he did it “all” for his own purposes and for his own reasons, and by his own power. That includes everything that exists, both now and in the future .

There are just way too many scriptures that contradict your view here. If you are not a Believer, then just say so. It is better to be honest about things. At least gadam is honest about his status.

Colossians 1:15-16
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Hebrews 1:1-2
God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

John 1:1-4
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

[GeneBalthrop]

Proclaimer…..I see you still are not understanding the Greek word ( dia) correctly,  it has your head still screwed up,  like most trinitarians also.  Your inability to not understand the absolute “SOVEREIGNTY”  OF GOD THE FATHER,  is evident and apparent by what you wrote.   Unfortunately for you, true understanding of scripture, disagrees with you .

You are not even able to understand that there exist no shush thing as a “flesh” word,  and that God and his word is the exact same person,  no matter who quotes them.  Jesus is not God the Fathers word never was and never will be either, in fact no one can be God’s Word , but God himself.  Just like no one can be your word but you yourself, simple common sense should tell you that. A word never became flesh , “a prophesied “flesh” man, named Jesus came into his “being”, and he was the fulfilled “prophetic” “WORD”  of God.   Jesus is not, was not,  or ever will be God the Fathers word,  God the Father himself is his own word. Even though “anyone can quote him, especially the “PROPHETS” ,  and Jesus was indeed a “Prophet”,  according to “MOSES”.   

Jesus is “called” the word not because he , “IS”  “the” word of God, but because he is a “mediator” between men and God,  the “MAN” Jesus, tells us  GOD the Fathers words. But that never made he himself ,  GOD’S “WORD”,  big difference .

proclaimer,  your still 1/2 way in and 1/2 way out IMO ,  have you also lost your “first” love?  Rev 2:4.

peace and love to you and yours……….gene

 

 

[Proclaimer]

You are not even able to understand that there exist no shush thing as a “flesh” word

The Word of God is coming back. When he came the first time, he emptied himself and came in the flesh. He became a man like you and me. He is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos. This is what the scripture says. You are free to believe or not. You have chosen with your will to not believe.

[GeneBalthrop]

Proclaimer…….Have you ever thought how bold you are?  You take God the Fathers         ” own words”,  away from him, and given them to Jesus , that “is” stealing Glory  from God.  It’s one thing to say Jesus delivered God the Fathers words to us, (as a mediator would)  and quite another to say “he “IS” the word of God “himself” , big difference .  One way gives the Glory to God, the other way gives the glory to a man, The “MAN” Jesus Christ .  

Why can’t you understand the simple truth,  God the Fathers words are his alone,  Just the same as your and my words are ours alone.  Tell me what’s so hard to understand about that? How would like to write a book and someone copies it and passes it of as his own ?  By making Jesus the very word of God,  that is exactly what you are doing.

peace and love to you and yours………..gene

 

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