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Quote (Gene @ Jan. 24 2010,00:57) Kerwin………You are misunderstanding me. Accountability is indeed a personal accountability. Rather it be GOD or Man, What has that to do with the subject of “FREE” WILLS, if your trying to relate to it. The definition Accountability does (NOT) imply a “FREE” anything it simply shows we are held accountable for our actions. The subject of “FREE” WILLS is not the issue only accountable WILLS are. To try to imply because GOD holds us accountable means we Have “FREE WILL” is an error. There exist no such thing as a “FREE” WILL only INFLUENCED WILLS EXIST. Show one scripture that shows our accountability has to do with any So-Called “FREE” WILL. It just does not exist. It would just not be a WILL if it was FREE of any INFLUENCE. Can't you see that brother. peace and love……………gene
If you believe that then you are not understanding the reasoning behind those who argue for free will. Have you ever did a study of what those who support free will mean? I have tried to point out a few sources and they agree that their is a link between free will and accountability in most cases.As for showing you one scripture where accountability has to do with individual will or free will. There are many. Of course scripture may not call it either individual will or free will but will instead let you figure out it is voluntary.
Ezekiel 24:14(KJV) reads:
Quote ” 'I the LORD have spoken. The time has come for me to act. I will not hold back; I will not have pity, nor will I relent. You will be judged according to your conduct and your actions, declares the Sovereign LORD.' “
and
Job 31:11(KJV) reads:
Quote For this is an heinous crime; yea, it is an iniquity to be punished by the judges.
Here is some scriptures that speak of free will.
Philemon 1:14(KJV) reads:
Quote But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.
and
Ezra 7:13(KJV) reads:
Quote I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
Kerwin ……….None of what you posted is referencing anything about us having “FREE WILLS” Ezra 7:13, simply means of Himself decides to do it. I ask for scriptures that talk about Us having “FREE WILL” there are none. Man want to believe He Does, but (ALL) WILLS are INFLUENCED WILLS, YOU DO what has the greatest influence in your life no matter what and SO does GOD.
Can't you see that is what (WILL) MEANS. It means doing your Thoughts and Your thoughts are a result of you INTELLECTS and the result of that is YOUR WILL. If a WILL is the result of our INFLUENCES then it is NOT FREE of INFLUENCE and therefore is a captive WILL. GOD works in our Heart and Minds to control our WILLS. “For he works in us (Both) to (WILL) and do of (HIS) good Pleasure”> you see it is a battles of the WILLS, this same Battle is the one Jesus won, It was the battle of the WILLS. What He wanted or willed and what GOD wanted or willed. He put HIS WILL to death. As i said before it is PRIDE that does not want us to see we are (NOT) FREE WILL Beings, but influenced will beings. Again there is no such thing a WILL that is “FREE”. God allows Us to exercise our influenced WILL to a POINT. But that does not mean we (HAVE) “FREE WILL”. IN the end (ONLY) GODS WILL will be done, remember “they Kingdom come and (THY) WILL be DONE”. When GOD is in all and through ALL (ONLY) HIS WILL will be DONE. So much for (OUR) So-called “FREE WILLS” when in fact they are far from being FREE. IN fact we are held captive as our WILLS Show, that GOD Has to come and SET us FREE FROM THEM> IMOgene
were is your scripture that shows INFLUENCE WILL…….?
?you miss guided in your concept and you refuse to answer to the above question.WHY?
????terraricca……..Debating with you does no good, you have already made up your mind and really just want to argue IMO. But i will answer your question if you can comprehend it or not is another question. The very word (WILL) itself proves it is INFLUENCED. A will is the expression of ONE DESIRES and ONE DESIRES are WHAT IS INFLUENCING HIM> GET it. Jesus said “NOT my WILL but THY WILL BE (DONE) . and again “it is written in the volume of the books , I come to do (THY) Will O GOD”.
INFLUENCE is just another word for what is (CAUSING) you to do what you do. GET IT? Jesus is not righteous because he exercised (HIS WILL) but because He WAS DOING GOD”S WILL> But Pride prevents some from seeing that. Because they are seeking to establish their (OWN SELVES) thinking their (OWN) So-CALLED “FREE WILLS” Choices is what is saving them. When in fact they must put their WILL to DEATH in order to Be truly saved. Only (ONE) WILL is to BE DONE, rather you except that or NOT , does not change the truth. Our own Self (influenced) WILLS mean nothing, Useless it is GOD'S SPIRIT, Influencing them. And if it is GOD then it is (NOT) US> But either way WILLS are all Influenced ones and there for not “FREE” and that includes GOD'S WILL TO.
gene
you coming to what i said all along,the therm of free will only applies to your knowledge and understanding you possess at the time in your live,but you as individual person you have your own will of desires,
and now this is were free will come in you either let you selves be influenced by your flesh desires or
your knowledge and understanding spirit ,THIS CHOICE IS YOURS AND IT IS WITH YOUR FREE WILL THAT YOU PICK IT;and to fight to stay in the ways of God is also your free will because we are always exposed to Satan world,of cause the influence of our knowledge and understanding of God s will, will in our faith be a great factor not to go back to Satan world,it is this choice that brings us to be loved by God for in actions and deeds we love him.i can explain it in many different ways if you want,
this is also this way for the thief who repent on the cross next to Jesus,he was influenced by what he understood then but could not change much to the position he was in,but that s not the important ,
his understanding was clear if you read what he says.Terraricca………Just what i said YOUR salvation of OF YOU SELF you think. BY your SO-CALLED “FREE WILL”. the grace of GOD has nothing to do with It it's Just YOUR “FREE WILL” , in this YOU ARE DENYING GOD COMPLETELY. GO look up the word (GRACE) and you will find it means GOD'S INFLUENCING ON THE HEART. “FOR WE ARE SAVED BY THE (GRACE) OF GOD AND THAT (NOT) OF YOURSELVES>
But you so-called “FREE WILL” can't stand that because it does not glorify yourselves. AGAIN FOR THE HUNDREDTH TIME THERE EXISTS NO SUCH THING AS A WILL FREE OF INFLUENCE, NOT MANS OR GODS WILL. That is exactly why so many are condused because they think their salvation is up to them and nothing could be further from the truth, we are saved by the blood of Christ through the operation of GRACE (God's influencing on our heart). Again ” FOR GOD (WORKS) (IN) (US) (BOTH) TO (WILL) AND DO OF (HIS) GOOD PLEASURE. Rather you like it or not your own WILL has (NOTHING) to DO with it, unless your are still carnal minded then you will follow your captive WILL. Just as simple as that. IMOgene
read this very carefully it is importantJas 1:2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds,
Jas 1:3 because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance.
Jas 1:4 Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anythingJas 1:12 Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.
Jas 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
Jas 1:14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
Jas 1:16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers.Jas 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created
Jas 1:20 for man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires.
Jas 1:21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.
Jas 1:22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.gene; according to JAMES you are a false teacher
Terraricca……..And you are a false accuser of the brethren as well as a twister of what was being talked about , Changing subject matter is a trick of the evil because their Pride refuses to let them admit the truth. We were talking about (WILLS) a complete different subject then what you have Quoted in James. Do you see the word WILL mentioned (ONE) time there, trying to force the text is wrong. Your beginning to sound like Thinker jumping around in and out of subject matter bouncing of the walls. IMO
Quote (Gene @ Jan. 24 2010,21:48) Kerwin ……….None of what you posted is referencing anything about us having “FREE WILLS” Ezra 7:13, simply means of Himself decides to do it. I ask for scriptures that talk about Us having “FREE WILL” there are none. Man want to believe He Does, but (ALL) WILLS are INFLUENCED WILLS, YOU DO what has the greatest influence in your life no matter what and SO does GOD.
Can't you see that is what (WILL) MEANS. It means doing your Thoughts and Your thoughts are a result of you INTELLECTS and the result of that is YOUR WILL. If a WILL is the result of our INFLUENCES then it is NOT FREE of INFLUENCE and therefore is a captive WILL. GOD works in our Heart and Minds to control our WILLS. “For he works in us (Both) to (WILL) and do of (HIS) good Pleasure”> you see it is a battles of the WILLS, this same Battle is the one Jesus won, It was the battle of the WILLS. What He wanted or willed and what GOD wanted or willed. He put HIS WILL to death. As i said before it is PRIDE that does not want us to see we are (NOT) FREE WILL Beings, but influenced will beings. Again there is no such thing a WILL that is “FREE”. God allows Us to exercise our influenced WILL to a POINT. But that does not mean we (HAVE) “FREE WILL”. IN the end (ONLY) GODS WILL will be done, remember “they Kingdom come and (THY) WILL be DONE”. When GOD is in all and through ALL (ONLY) HIS WILL will be DONE. So much for (OUR) So-called “FREE WILLS” when in fact they are far from being FREE. IN fact we are held captive as our WILLS Show, that GOD Has to come and SET us FREE FROM THEM> IMO
That is not what free will means. Free will means a will driven by our own thoughts and desires free of outside controls.I used the word controls because outside influences are irrelevant as they are considered part of the choice.
Please note: Some internal influences such temptation are also considered the same as external influences.
What do you consider a free will offering?
Terraricca,
Have you read what Gene defines free will as. He defines it in this post.
Quote (Gene @ Jan. 24 2010,21:48) Kerwin ……….None of what you posted is referencing anything about us having “FREE WILLS” Ezra 7:13, simply means of Himself decides to do it. I ask for scriptures that talk about Us having “FREE WILL” there are none. Man want to believe He Does, but (ALL) WILLS are INFLUENCED WILLS, YOU DO what has the greatest influence in your life no matter what and SO does GOD.
Can't you see that is what (WILL) MEANS. It means doing your Thoughts and Your thoughts are a result of you INTELLECTS and the result of that is YOUR WILL. If a WILL is the result of our INFLUENCES then it is NOT FREE of INFLUENCE and therefore is a captive WILL. GOD works in our Heart and Minds to control our WILLS. “For he works in us (Both) to (WILL) and do of (HIS) good Pleasure”> you see it is a battles of the WILLS, this same Battle is the one Jesus won, It was the battle of the WILLS. What He wanted or willed and what GOD wanted or willed. He put HIS WILL to death. As i said before it is PRIDE that does not want us to see we are (NOT) FREE WILL Beings, but influenced will beings. Again there is no such thing a WILL that is “FREE”. God allows Us to exercise our influenced WILL to a POINT. But that does not mean we (HAVE) “FREE WILL”. IN the end (ONLY) GODS WILL will be done, remember “they Kingdom come and (THY) WILL be DONE”. When GOD is in all and through ALL (ONLY) HIS WILL will be DONE. So much for (OUR) So-called “FREE WILLS” when in fact they are far from being FREE. IN fact we are held captive as our WILLS Show, that GOD Has to come and SET us FREE FROM THEM> IMOhi kerwin
yes i have seen it;what he is saying is that God as determine all things and that he is saving anyone who he want to,and will not save anyone who he do not want to,and because God control all events he also pre determind all world affaires.and if we are saved it is because he as wanted it.do i understand it right???
Kerwin……..A “FREE WILL” offering is simply and offering from the SELF, It has nothing to do with the WILL in Man or GOD being “FREE” of Influence. Trying to separate Influences from external or internal does not answer the question is a WILL “FREE” or not. There simply does not exist (ANY) WILL that is (FREE) or it could not be a WILL. All WILLS (ARE) influenced ONE even GOD'S WILL is. “FOR GOD DOES ALL THINGS AFTER HE (COUNSEL) OF HIS (OWN) WILL. SO GOD decisions are brought about by counsel of HIS WILL, so are OURS. It is not FREE of COUNSEL and Therefore is (NOT) FREE at ALL. YOU will do what (INFLUENCES) YOU the MOST (ALWAYS). And so does GOD. What do you think the very word WILL Means, is it not you own desires. Rather GOD allows you the liberty to exercise it or not is another subject completely. IMO
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 25 2010,08:28) hi kerwin
yes i have seen it;what he is saying is that God as determine all things and that he is saving anyone who he want to,and will not save anyone who he do not want to,and because God control all events he also pre determind all world affaires.and if we are saved it is because he as wanted it.do i understand it right???
Terraricca……….Now that is close to the truth, our salvation is (NOT) about (OUR) so-called “FREE WILLS” but about GOD'S WILL> your not far from the truth there. IMOhi gene
Posted: Jan. 25 2010,08:35——————————————————————————–
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 25 2010,08:28)
hi kerwin
yes i have seen it;what he is saying is that God as determine all things and that he is saving anyone who he want to,and will not save anyone who he do not want to,and because God control all events he also pre determind all world affaires.and if we are saved it is because he as wanted it.do i understand it right???
Terraricca……….Now that is close to the truth, our salvation is (NOT) about (OUR) so-called “FREE WILLS” but about GOD'S WILL> your not far from the truth there. IMO
is there any thing missing to clarified the understanding of your view?
???yes or no.??Gene
I will not wait forever ,if you do not answer i will assume that you have said all you can on determinism
and my understanding the way you have explain it to meQuote (kerwin @ Jan. 25 2010,00:57) Quote (Gene @ Jan. 24 2010,00:57) Kerwin………You are misunderstanding me. Accountability is indeed a personal accountability. Rather it be GOD or Man, What has that to do with the subject of “FREE” WILLS, if your trying to relate to it. The definition Accountability does (NOT) imply a “FREE” anything it simply shows we are held accountable for our actions. The subject of “FREE” WILLS is not the issue only accountable WILLS are. To try to imply because GOD holds us accountable means we Have “FREE WILL” is an error. There exist no such thing as a “FREE” WILL only INFLUENCED WILLS EXIST. Show one scripture that shows our accountability has to do with any So-Called “FREE” WILL. It just does not exist. It would just not be a WILL if it was FREE of any INFLUENCE. Can't you see that brother. peace and love……………gene
If you believe that then you are not understanding the reasoning behind those who argue for free will. Have you ever did a study of what those who support free will mean? I have tried to point out a few sources and they agree that their is a link between free will and accountability in most cases.As for showing you one scripture where accountability has to do with individual will or free will. There are many. Of course scripture may not call it either individual will or free will but will instead let you figure out it is voluntary.
Ezekiel 24:14(KJV) reads:
Quote ” 'I the LORD have spoken. The time has come for me to act. I will not hold back; I will not have pity, nor will I relent. You will be judged according to your conduct and your actions, declares the Sovereign LORD.' “
and
Job 31:11(KJV) reads:
Quote For this is an heinous crime; yea, it is an iniquity to be punished by the judges.
Here is some scriptures that speak of free will.
Philemon 1:14(KJV) reads:
Quote But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.
and
Ezra 7:13(KJV) reads:
Quote I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
Hi Kerwin,In light of your failure to convince Gene otherwise, could not what you have said to me also apply to you as well?
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 20 2010,16:42) Ed J., A lot of your other scriptures you use as premises fail to actually support your conclusion. Instead it looks like you assumed your conclusion when quoting those scriptures.
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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