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Hi david,
Is the JW church the only foundation of wisdom for you, and are you not allowed to have your own ideas for fear of being rejected or failure to meet their requirements? We never see you question anything of their doctrines so are they infallible to you and to be faithful to God you must accept all that comes from their mouths?The JWs have been wrong before and acknowledged that so are you able to correct them or is nothing needing revision at present?. Would they be happy to know you are here among those they abhor as unsaved being outside of the JW flock?
Hi everyone:
It was not God's intention that we be divided otherwise why would Jesus pray, “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me”. (John 17:20-21)
And so, I also am joining you in prayer asking God to bring us into unity. I believe that in order to come into unity we must discuss our differences with the mentality that we each of us is subject to misinterpret God's Word, and therefore, we must be willing to be corrected if we are wrong. If after we discuss our differences, one or the other of us is corrected then we are walking in untiy, and if we still disagree after discussing our differences, we can go to our God in prayer asking him what He intended by the scripture in question. (James 1:5-6)
We can also pray for those who are teaching doctrines in the church with whom we disagree that He would give them revelation knowledge in His Word if indeed they are the ones in error.
As Jesus prayer for unity ends in this statement: “THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE THAT THOU HAST SENT ME”. People would be more apt to be drawn to the body of Christ if we were united. “And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand”. (Mark 3:25)
God Bless
Hi 94,
I agree. We should first pray for wisdom on how we are to be joined to the body of Christ because unless we are all else is futile window washing. There are many false doctrines about salvation and many smugly assured that they are safe, but they still stand in the religious courtyard of the temple where there is no safety.Matt 6
” 33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you”Rev 11
” 1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.”
Lk 6
” 46And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?47Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
Hi david.
Quote (david @ Nov. 01 2006,16:23) Here's the thing T8. They resolved those issues. That was 2000 years ago.
Yes and the JWs and their doctrines and prophecies didn't exist 2000 years ago either. If we were to assume that the JWs are God's organisation on earth, why then was that fact not resolved, taught, and practiced 2000 years ago?The fact is the organisation of JWs didn't come into existence to relatively recently and yet Jesus built his Church upon a rock 2000 years ago. Seems a bit strange that you belong to an organisation that claims to be the Church and yet it didn't exist back then. Surely you can see that this hypothesis is suspect.
Anyway, we live in a time when the great falling away has happened and many are caught up in false systems as a result. So I personally have started again in all things to rid myself of anything that I picked up from these Babylonian systems. What does it say in scripture about dying to ourselves and living for Christ?
Anyway, if we are to take that which was passed on without question, then we will all end up in traditions and belong to the JWs, Catholics, Mormons, etc. And this is pretty much what we see. Those who seek the true meanings and recognise the true Church for what it is are relatively few.
Who do you know that has started again and questioned all doctrines and teachings to see if they are so? I bet if you do know someone like that, that they are not a JW.
david.
Every time you preach about the JWs, that is one less chance to preach about the true Kingdom of God, and it gives the enemy another foot up. He is the one that wants God's people to scatter into Babylon. But God is calling us out, yet you are encouraging people to enter back in.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 01 2006,04:41) david. Every time you preach about the JWs, that is one less chance to preach about the true Kingdom of God, and it gives the enemy another foot up. He is the one that wants God's people to scatter into Babylon. But God is calling us out, yet you are encouraging people to enter back in.
Hi David
You must be the only JW on this forum, so I guess you feel alone in your beliefs. I want to thank you for your reponses to my questions, I've learn't about what JW's believe from you, not from those who came knocking, you have a heart for God, there is no doubt, as all of us on the forum, that's why we're here isn't it?
Isn't it our hunger for fellowship with each other that drives this forum, because if it is only to gain knowledge then it will be fruitless because God want's us to unite in love not in doctrine.
I don't consider myself an Anglican because I go to an Anglican church. I go to that church because the people are my family in Christ and I love them all, we have differances of opinions sometimes, often I've gone to my pastor with a question that reguards something I've read that dosn't measure up with what is being taught in our church. She is so loving in her response and I feel no condemnation from her because I have questioned the doctrine.
I want to be teachable,so I don't adhere to any demonination, if they preach Christ crusified, and the ressurection, I don't have a problem with whether it's a sprinkle or full submersion, or the King James or NIV, is there a difference? I don't know.
I just pray to Our God that he takes control of this wonderful forum, that I've come to love, and brings us all into unity in Christ. Amen.Hi debra,
You are a blessing. We try to challenge all to grasp hold of what God has guaranteed as truth and to build on that rock a unity that will last for eternity.Quote Seems a bit strange that you belong to an organisation that claims to be the Church and yet it didn't exist back then.
Hi t8. What did Jesus say about the weed and wheat? wasn't an apostasy fortold, by Peter, Paul, John, Jesus? Wasn't it already beginning while the apostles were alive? It wouldn't be until the harvest that a clear distinction would be made. In the last days, we know that Jesus followers would again be united in a great preaching work. How would this come about with the fortold apostasy that began in the first century and spread quickly?Quote Those who seek the true meanings and recognise the true Church for what it is are relatively few.
And you are the true Church? Or you're a member of the true Church? Or is Christ the true church? And doesn't Christ use people and lead them? Does he lead them in circles of disunity where they contradict and kill each other? Unlikely.Quote Who do you know that has started again and questioned all doctrines and teachings to see if they are so? I bet if you do know someone like that, that they are not a JW. You'd lose that bet. We have countless such people.
Quote (david @ Nov. 01 2006,19:55) Quote Seems a bit strange that you belong to an organisation that claims to be the Church and yet it didn't exist back then.
Hi t8. What did Jesus say about the weed and wheat? wasn't an apostasy fortold, by Peter, Paul, John, Jesus? Wasn't it already beginning while the apostles were alive? It wouldn't be until the harvest that a clear distinction would be made. In the last days, we know that Jesus followers would again be united in a great preaching work. How would this come about with the fortold apostasy that began in the first century and spread quickly?Quote Those who seek the true meanings and recognise the true Church for what it is are relatively few.
And you are the true Church? Or you're a member of the true Church? Or is Christ the true church? And doesn't Christ use people and lead them? Does he lead them in circles of disunity where they contradict and kill each other? Unlikely.Quote Who do you know that has started again and questioned all doctrines and teachings to see if they are so? I bet if you do know someone like that, that they are not a JW. You'd lose that bet. We have countless such people.
Hi david,
The message is as important.Mark 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”Acts 8:5
Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.Acts 10:36
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)Acts 17:3
Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.Rom 10
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Gal 1
6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
2Cor 11
1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him”
Do the JWs preach the true gospel??
Quote (david @ Nov. 02 2006,14:55) Quote Seems a bit strange that you belong to an organisation that claims to be the Church and yet it didn't exist back then.
Hi t8. What did Jesus say about the weed and wheat? wasn't an apostasy fortold, by Peter, Paul, John, Jesus? Wasn't it already beginning while the apostles were alive? It wouldn't be until the harvest that a clear distinction would be made. In the last days, we know that Jesus followers would again be united in a great preaching work. How would this come about with the fortold apostasy that began in the first century and spread quickly?Quote Those who seek the true meanings and recognise the true Church for what it is are relatively few.
And you are the true Church? Or you're a member of the true Church? Or is Christ the true church? And doesn't Christ use people and lead them? Does he lead them in circles of disunity where they contradict and kill each other? Unlikely.Quote Who do you know that has started again and questioned all doctrines and teachings to see if they are so? I bet if you do know someone like that, that they are not a JW. You'd lose that bet. We have countless such people.
Correct about the apostacy, that is why I questioned and question all things including the organisation you promote.The gates of hell shall never prevail against the Church that was started 2000 or so years ago. But many of the Church have been taken into captivity into Babylon. If you or anyone else cannot spiritually understand this, then look to Israel as a parable. They were God's chosen and they were taken into captivity into Babylon and Egypt, and other times they were free. Captivity usually resulted in chasing after false gods.
So anyway you are agreeing with me that there is a falling away, but that doesn't prove that the JWs are the Church of God.
The JWs are one among many who believe they have the exclusive truth.
My message to you and everyone else who is caught up, is to come out of her. When you are free, you are free to serve God they way he wants. Not the way that certain men think you should serve God.
The interesting thing about captivity, is that some people prefer it to being free. It is easy for them. You don't have to think for yourself. You don't have to take risks yourself. You just do what the organisation that you have entrusted your soul to, tells you to do.
But if we are to make a true and good contribution to the Kingdom of God, then you absolutely need to be led by the Spirit of God. No organisation can replace the Spirit of God. So why let a man-made organisation lead you?
I am also concerned by the seperation of the body. I attend a pentecostal church, but don't agree with everything they do and say. I am there because I believe that is where the Lord would have me be right now.
Some years ago He asked me if I wanted to be part of a church group, or would I be seperated unto Him. Naturally I chose the latter. I think it is good to be able to share our differences in an open forum, thereby hopefully learning from one another.
Oxy,
I believe that denominations are built of man and rarely can come together, but the church as individual believers spread through out these organizations can and should be able fellowship. This would include sharing and learning as long as we are not compromising on truth.Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 03 2006,13:57) Oxy,
I believe that denominations are built of man and rarely can come together, but the church as individual believers spread through out these organizations can and should be able fellowship. This would include sharing and learning as long as we are not compromising on truth.
Couldn't have said it better myself.Amen.
T8,
Somewhere recently you wrote something about that denominations were likened to when Israel demanded a king (I looked for over an hour for that post but couldn't find it). I agree you can draw a reasonable parallel between the Church and Israel.Israel was God's people and He wanted them to look to Him as their ruler. He used the judges to guide the people and the Priests to minister to them. Enter the Church age, God still wanted to rule His people through His King. He provided the Holy Spirit to guide us and Jesus as our High Priest to minister to us. Once again we wanted to setup an authority over us, something between us and God besides the King he provided (same thing could also be said as when Israel first came out of Egypt they asked that Moses hear the words of God for them).
(Deuteronomy 5.23-33)
18The people trembled with fear when they heard the thunder and the trumpet and saw the lightning and the smoke coming from the mountain. They stood a long way off 19and said to Moses, ” If you speak to us, we will listen. But don't let God speak to us, or we will die!”
20″ Don't be afraid!” Moses replied. ” God has come only to test you, so that by obeying him you won't sin.” 21But when Moses went near the thick cloud where God was, the people stayed a long way off.However the scripture does speak of elders, bishops, and even pastors once. It indicates a structure of sorts. The structure seems to be likened to what Moses setup to teach others and have them judge issues from God's decrees and laws.
15 Moses answered him, “Because the people come to me to seek God's will. 16 Whenever they have a dispute, it is brought to me, and I decide between the parties and inform them of God's decrees and laws.”
17 Moses' father-in-law replied, “What you are doing is not good. 18 You and these people who come to you will only wear yourselves out. The work is too heavy for you; you cannot handle it alone. 19 Listen now to me and I will give you some advice, and may God be with you. You must be the people's representative before God and bring their disputes to him. 20 Teach them the decrees and laws, and show them the way to live and the duties they are to perform. 21 But select capable men from all the people—men who fear God, trustworthy men who hate dishonest gain—and appoint them as officials over thousands, hundreds, fifties and tens. 22 Have them serve as judges for the people at all times, but have them bring every difficult case to you; the simple cases they can decide themselves. That will make your load lighter, because they will share it with you. 23 If you do this and God so commands, you will be able to stand the strain, and all these people will go home satisfied.”
I assume that the pattern laid out here was of God since it seems to have been applied to the early Church. It seems that the Apostles were the authority (like Moses) by which bishops and elders were established in the early Church “2 So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, “It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables. 3Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them”. But we have no universally accepted authority to establish these positions. It almost seems we've returned to “every man doing what”s right in their own eyes”
My question would be, has God chosen for it to be this way
Could it be that the true body (believers around the world in various “churches” or in none at all) are finally for the first time (at least since the apostasy began), following God's Rule individually? We have scripture (God's word) as our authority (it both teaches and judges), and as Jesus is lifted up by these true believers (He being the purpose of scripture) all men will be drawn unto Him and not some denomination?
Denominations are only a hindrance to our accessing God, the Holy Spirit is our guide to all truth. If we as true believers will spend our time seeking God and listening to the Holy Spirit and less time casting our pearls before the swine (I'm not referring to answering earnest questions) could this be the path to becoming the bride without spot or wrinkle?
NOTE; By casting your pearls before the swine I feel this means to continually argue the same points, this will ruin not only you, but the ones listening also (see my signature for the verse). I believe this is at the point where questions are not being asked or answered, but positions defended, remember God told Ezekiel we are responsible to tell them the truth, not for their acceptance of it.
Open for correction.
Hi ST,
Well said.
Rebellion against the ways of God has always been popular and now coming dressed up in gawdy multicoloured religious clothing makes denominational traditions no more useful to God.Ezek2
” 3And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.4For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD.
5And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them.
6And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.
7And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious.”
Hi,
Human religion is one of the world's biggest industries employing many tens of thousands worldwide. Everywhere sincere and well meaning people, convinced they are serving God, are very busy achieving nothing good for themselves or others…unless God's will is being done through them.Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 07 2006,11:11) T8,
Somewhere recently you wrote something about that denominations were likened to when Israel demanded a king (I looked for over an hour for that post but couldn't find it). I agree you can draw a reasonable parallel between the Church and Israel.Israel was God's people and He wanted them to look to Him as their ruler. He used the judges to guide the people and the Priests to minister to them. Enter the Church age, God still wanted to rule His people through His King. He provided the Holy Spirit to guide us and Jesus as our High Priest to minister to us. Once again we wanted to setup an authority over us, something between us and God besides the King he provided (same thing could also be said as when Israel first came out of Egypt they asked that Moses hear the words of God for them).
Hi seekingtruth.I think you are referring to a post I made on page 36 of the JW discussion.
I will quote it below for you, and then read your post.
Thanks
############################
Thanks Casey.
My take on denominations are as follows. They are divisions, but despite that, God uses the people who belong to them.
It seems to me that the Church has pretty much followed Israel.
Israel wanted a king, but God wanted to be their king. Despite that, God gave them a king and said that they would have a price to pay for this. This included a tithe and other excessive resources to keep the king and his kingdom running. Then God blessed David and Solomon. If we think there was great glory in that Kingdom, imagine what it would have been like if they decided to take God's advice and let him be their King?
Similarly, the Church says “we want a king”. But God says you have a king, but despite that he allows us to setup mini-kingdoms and to place a man on top. It seems the price we pay for this is the tithe and other excessive resources to keep these mini-kingdoms afloat.
If we look at the average denomination, I think you will find that most or at least a big percentage of the money and resources are used in administration and buildings. This diversion of resources from the Body of Christ stops us blessing the poor as much as we could.
The first century church gave all they had and the impact was huge. But it seems under the current regimes that we will never have that same impact if we are to serve these organisations. These organisations limit us, but they do not tie us up completely.
Now I agree with you that God can use these organisations. He uses them because that is where his people decide they want to fellowship and God uses his people. If he did that for Israel, then I guess he can do the same for the Church inside a denomination.
The more useful organisations in my opinion are organisations that distribute bibles and fund missionaries. But the denominations themselves spend a lot of time and money on things, but the harvest is relatively small in my opinion.
I am not against organisations as such, but I think that there is a better way and that is to be led by the Spirit. I think if that happened the old structure would become irrelevant.
But I also think that the new wine from God will burst the old wine skins. When God pours out his Spirit, the old things will not be able to contain what God is doing. If we try to preserve the old structure, then we will only limit God.
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