- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 21 2010,23:18) Hi Gene, Satan is a real being, as in Job, what I don't like is when people (eg in churches) get carried away with what they say, even though Jude and Peter warn against 'blaspheming the glorious ones' In Job, Satan walks among the sons of God, I found that interesting, I havent finished it yet.
Hi Shimmer,I beg to argue, to be technical, Satan is not a being, it is a mistranslated word that should be rendered adversary in the English bible.
X!t is directly used in scripture applied to men and messengers. I have not been able to get anyone on this forum to show me where the Hebrew word meaning adversary, X!t, becomes the proper name of One Individual. The way the word is used in the bible's entirety it should be obvious in my opinion, that the word is rendered more as a title, rather then the name of one person.
My understanding of Job is that the adversary is a faithful messenger of God. All characters in the book of Job, even God, attribute Job's suffering from coming FROM GOD. In other books of the Old Testament, X!t is directly used in the case of God's faithful messengers.
I would argue that there is actually NO scripture in the Old Testament that can be found where an adversary represents something other then either a man or a messenger of God, likewise with the NT.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 19 2010,00:54) Jodi…………..Good to see you back posting sis, hope everything is going good for you and yours. I agree with you posts on Satan and Devils, there is a huge misconception concerning this subject IMO. peace and love to you and yours Jodi……………………….gene
Hi Gene,Thanks, I have been doing well, and I hope you have been too
We had a great summer filled with camping, white water rafting and hiking. We even took the girls on a kayak camping trip, and little Molly Sue who will be 3 on Friday, hiked a whole 3 miles without getting one piggy-back ride! We couldn't believe it.
Hoping to get some good debates going!
Love to you, Jodi
Hi Jodi, looks like you been having fun, good on you.
Regarding your post…
God has control of everything.
I was told Satan takes people to hell with him, to suffer in eternal concious torment and nothing (not even God) can ever get them out…It terrified me. Never ending pain !
Preachers preach and yell about the Devil and how wrong he is, yet we see in Jude and Peter….(Jude 1:8)…“These Men say wrong things about those who are great, even about the angels. At one time Michael the chief angel had a quarrel with the devil about who should have the body of Moses. But he did not dare to judge the devil and say wrong things about him. He said, `May the Lord tell you to stop!' “But these men say wrong things about everything they do not understand.”
And the Rabbi says…(Quote)
……. Judaism and the Bible tell of a character called, “The Satan.” Every time the term is used in the Hebrew Scriptures, it reads, “HaSaTaN,” which means “THE Satan.”……..
……. For Christians, the devil has power and authority in and of himself. However, in the Bible, The Satan only has power granted by God, and has no authority in and of himself………..
……..The Satan is described in only a few places in the Hebrew Scriptures. In every instance, he is an angel who works FOR God, not against God, and must get permission from God for everything that he does. Chronicles, Job, Psalms, and Zechariah are the only places where The Satan is mentioned. In each instance, the job description of The Satan is to act like what we now call a Prosecuting Attorney, or District Attorney, and accuse and show evidence against the defendant. Furthermore, like a D.A., The Satan must obtain permission from God, The Judge, to begin a sting operation………….(unquote)
It seems there are misunderstandings. Maybe it's the way people are understanding the book of Revelations ?
Quote (Jodi Lee @ June 29 2010,07:25) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 28 2010,08:43) Hi Jodi,
Satan means adversary and the adversary is one of them.
His rule is different from God's as he works through adversaries
His adversary spirits enter men and dwell in them making them unclean.
Hi Nick,It is God who makes, the deaf, dumb, blind, mad, diseased. No other being has such powers, to say otherwise IMO is to create a false god.
Jodi, that is so absurd, God would never do something like that. God can't look on sin and will never do something bad, only Satan will. It is God who will make all well rather then making all sick. That to me is sickening, to think something like that about God….. Not my God or Jesus for that natter…
That is all I am going to say to you, it is nonesense to deny Satan. And Satan is having a field day with you…… Peace IreneIrene, how do you explain these scriptures my dear?
I Samuel 2:6 “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up. The Lord makes the poor and the rich;”
Isaiah 45:6-7 “That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I the Lord do all these things.”
Exodus 4:11 So the Lord said to him, “Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I, the Lord?
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
Deut 28:16 Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the country. 17 Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. 18 Cursed shall be the fruit of your body and the produce of your land, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks. 19 Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out. 20 “The Lord will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings in which you have forsaken Me. 21 The Lord will make the plague cling to you until He has consumed you from the land which you are going to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with consumption, with fever, with inflammation, with severe burning fever, with the sword, with scorching, and with mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish. 23 And your heavens which are over your head shall be bronze, and the earth which is under you shall be iron. 24 The Lord will change the rain of your land to powder and dust; from the heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed. 25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them; and you shall become troublesome to all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 Your carcasses shall be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and no one shall frighten them away. 27 The Lord will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with tumors, with the scab, and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed. 28 The Lord will strike you with madness and blindness and confusion of heart. 29 And you shall grope at noonday, as a blind man gropes in darkness; you shall not prosper in your ways; you shall be only oppressed and plundered continually, and no one shall save you. 30 You shall betroth a wife, but another man shall lie with her; you shall build a house, but you shall not dwell in it; you shall plant a vineyard, but shall not gather its grapes. 31 Your ox shall be slaughtered before your eyes, but you shall not eat of it; your donkey shall be violently taken away from before you, and shall not be restored to you; your sheep shall be given to your enemies, and you shall have no one to rescue them. 32 Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, and your eyes shall look and fail with longing for them all day long; and there shall be no strength in your hand. 33 A nation whom you have not known shall eat the fruit of your land and the produce of your labor, and you shall be only oppressed and crushed continually. 34 So you shall be driven mad because of the sight which your eyes see. 35 The Lord will strike you in the knees and on the legs with severe boils which cannot be healed, and from the sole of your foot to the top of your head. 36 The Lord will bring you and the king whom you set over you to a nation which neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you shall serve other gods–wood and stone. 37 And you shall become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword among all nations where the Lord will drive you. 38 You shall carry much seed out to the field but gather little in, for the locust shall consume it. 39 You shall plant vineyards and tend them, but you shall neither drink of the wine nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. 40 You shall have olive trees throughout all your territory, but you shall not anoint yourself with the oil; for your olives shall drop off. 41 You shall beget sons and daughters, but they shall not be yours; for they shall go into captivity. 42 Locusts shall consume all your trees and the produce of your land. 43 The alien who is among you shall rise higher and higher above you, and you shall come down lower and lower. 44 He shall lend to you, but you shall not lend to him; he shall be the head, and you shall be the tail. 45 Moreover all these curses shall come upon you and pursue and overtake you, until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you. 46 And they shall be upon you for a sign and a wonder, and on your descendants forever. 47 “Because you did not serve the Lord your God with joy and gladness of heart, for the abundance of everything, 48 therefore you shall serve your enemies, whom the Lord will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in need of everything; and He will put a yoke of iron on your neck until He has destroyed you. 49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a nation of fierce countenance, which does not respect the elderly nor show favor to the young. 51 And they shall eat the increase of your livestock and the produce of your land, until you are destroyed; they shall not leave you grain or new wine or oil, or the increase of your cattle or the offspring of your flocks, until they have destroyed you. 52 They shall besiege you at all your gates until your high and fortified walls, in which you trust, come down throughout all your land; and they shall besiege you at all your gates throughout all your land which the Lord your God has given you. 53 You shall eat the fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and your daughters whom the Lord your God has given you, in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you. 54 The sensitive and very refined man among you will be hostile toward his brother, toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the rest of his children whom he leaves behind, 55 so that he will not give any of them the flesh of his children whom he will eat, because he has nothing left in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates. 56 The tender and delicate woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground because of her delicateness and sensitivity, will refuse to the husband of her bosom, and to her son and her daughter, 57 her placenta which comes out from between her feet and her children whom she bears; for she will eat them secretly for lack of everything in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates. 58 “If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, THE LORD YOUR GOD, 59 then the Lord will bring upo
n you and your descendants extraordinary plagues–great and prolonged plagues–and serious and prolonged sicknesses. 60 Moreover He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. 61 Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the Lord bring upon you until you are destroyed. 62 You shall be left few in number, whereas you were as the stars of heaven in multitude, because you would not obey the voice of the Lord your God.Clearly it is YHWH that brings cursing. He says HE DOES THESE THINGS, there IS NO OTHER, to believe otherwise is to give HIS POWERS that ONLY HE HAS to another, thus making a FALSE gOD!!!
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 22 2010,01:47) Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 21 2010,23:18) Hi Gene, Satan is a real being, as in Job, what I don't like is when people (eg in churches) get carried away with what they say, even though Jude and Peter warn against 'blaspheming the glorious ones' In Job, Satan walks among the sons of God, I found that interesting, I havent finished it yet.
Hi Shimmer,I beg to argue, to be technical, Satan is not a being, it is a mistranslated word that should be rendered adversary in the English bible.
Hi Jodi,To be technical, Satan is not a being but, Satan is an evil entity!
A being implies substance, spirit has NO SUBSTANCE!
For trying to be technical, you have failed!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Sep. 22 2010,15:52) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 22 2010,01:47) Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 21 2010,23:18) Hi Gene, Satan is a real being, as in Job, what I don't like is when people (eg in churches) get carried away with what they say, even though Jude and Peter warn against 'blaspheming the glorious ones' In Job, Satan walks among the sons of God, I found that interesting, I havent finished it yet.
Hi Shimmer,I beg to argue, to be technical, Satan is not a being, it is a mistranslated word that should be rendered adversary in the English bible.
Hi Jodi,To be technical, Satan is not a being but, Satan is an evil entity!
A being implies substance, spirit has NO SUBSTANCE!
For trying to be technical, you have failed!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Dude seriously, can you not admit that the word satan in the bible comes from the Hebrew word X!t, phonetic saw-tawn, and means ADVERSARY, and is applied clearly to men, as well as God's faithful messengers. Use your lexicon!Where does the word go from being a title of a person or a description, to a proper name of this spirit you believe in?
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 22 2010,16:20) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 22 2010,15:52) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 22 2010,01:47) Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 21 2010,23:18) Hi Gene, Satan is a real being, as in Job, what I don't like is when people (eg in churches) get carried away with what they say, even though Jude and Peter warn against 'blaspheming the glorious ones' In Job, Satan walks among the sons of God, I found that interesting, I havent finished it yet.
Hi Shimmer,I beg to argue, to be technical, Satan is not a being, it is a mistranslated word that should be rendered adversary in the English bible.
Hi Jodi,To be technical, Satan is not a being but, Satan is an evil entity!
A being implies substance, spirit has NO SUBSTANCE!
For trying to be technical, you have failed!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Dude seriously, can you not admit that the word satan in the bible comes from the Hebrew word X!t, phonetic saw-tawn, and means ADVERSARY, and is applied clearly to men, as well as God's faithful messengers. Use your lexicon!Where does the word go from being a title of a person or a description, to a proper name of this spirit you believe in?
Hi Jodi,If satan is not an evil entity, then explain these verses…
2Cor.2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us:
for we are not ignorant of his devices.Who's devices is the Apostle Paul talking about here?
1Thes.2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul,
once and again; but Satan hindered us.Who is the Apostle Paul speaking of that did this hindering?
1Tm.1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have
delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.Who is the Apostle Paul delivering Hymenaeus and Alexander over to?
Rev.12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,
which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.Who is being cast to Earth with the Angels here?
Rev.20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent,
which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,Just exactly who is being bound here?
Rev.20:7: And when the thousand years are expired,
Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,Who is being loosed out of his prison?
These are serious questions:
Please Jodi, take the time to answer them for us all; OK?Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Ed J,
Satan means adversary, right? I have stated that men are shown in scripture to be called X!t. The word must be understood according to the surrounding text, the word is NOT A PROPRER NAME representing one entity.
Matthew 16:23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”
Peter is called adversary because he has in mind the things of men.
1 Corinthians 3:3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?
Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Plain and simple, ‘satan’ from the example of Christ’s word and the teaching’s of Paul, represents TO BE CARNALLY MINDED.
This is also true for the word devil, not a PROPER NAME of one entity, but a WORD meaning slanderer. We must understand the WORD ‘devil’ according to it’s surrounding text.Revelation 2:10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
The devil in the above scripture is a man or a group of men who are about to persecute the early Christians, they are slanderers, falsely accusing the Christians.
Just as John in Revelation uses devil to represent men walking according to their carnal nature, Paul’s use of the word adversary, represents either MEN or the adversarial spirit in men, the carnal mind.
The persecuting Jews and Roman authorities WERE CERTAINLY DEVILS and SATANS!!
Can we not think back to the days after the death of Jesus? Who brought Jesus to the cross? WHO hunted down Christians and impaled them, hung them up on crosses to suffer and die, burned them and their children?
WHO DID THIS?
Some invisible spirit being? That is utter foolishness!!
IT WAS MEN FOLLOWING AFTER THEIR CARNAL MINDS!!Good grief. Where is the REALITY, where is the common sense. Can you people get your heads out of fictional fantasies? Oh, that’s right, you can’t because you are too indoctrinated by the doctrines that came out of the “early church fathers”, who were all whores, understanding the bible through their pagan minds.
Ed J,
As I showed before from Christ’s words and Paul’s teachings, to have in mind the things of men, being carnally minded, walking to serve the flesh, is to be SATAN. When Christ returns, the CARNAL MIND will be bound. ONLY those who walk according to the Spirit of God will dwell. However there comes a time, when the rest of mankind, those not of the first fruits, are resurrected. This is when the Carnal Mind, the great adversary, will be allowed to roam again. After a short time however, YHWH is going to cast the carnal mind into the lake of fire, destroying it once and for all, cleansing ALL men from their sins.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 23 2010,01:20) Ed J, Satan means adversary, right?
Hi Jodi,Yes; now will you answer my questions?
If satan is not an evil entity, then explain these verses…
2Cor.2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us:
for we are not ignorant of his devices.Who's devices is the Apostle Paul talking about here?
1Thes.2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul,
once and again; but Satan hindered us.Who is the Apostle Paul speaking of that did this hindering?
1Tm.1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have
delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.Who is the Apostle Paul delivering Hymenaeus and Alexander over to?
Rev.12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,
which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.Who is being cast to Earth with the Angels here?
Rev.20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent,
which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,Just exactly who is being bound here?
Rev.20:7: And when the thousand years are expired,
Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,Who is being loosed out of his prison?
These are serious questions:
Please Jodi, take the time to answer them for us all; OK?Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Hi Jodi,
Hebrew #7854: שָׂטָן satan: from 7843 an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan,
the arch-enemy of good:- adversary, Satan, to withstand, to accuse, to resist, to be an adversary.Greek #4567: Σατανᾶς Satanas: the accuser, the devil.
Hebrew #7700: Devil שֵׁדִים shed: a demon:-devil
Greek# #1228: Devil διάβολος diabolos: to blame, to accuse, false accuser, devil, slanderer.
How do any of these Biblical definitions (Jodi), preclude satan the devil from being an entity? (Rev.12:8-9)
Satan the devil's existence is separate and independent from God!
Webster's Collegiate Dictionary: 1. Entity: existence, independent, separate,
or self-contained existence, the existence of a thing as contrasted by the attributes
2. something that has a separate and distinct existence and objective or conceptual reality
PLEASE: Consider these FACTS, rather than continuing to put your presuppositions above the facts!Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 22 2010,13:38) Hi Shimmer, Did you read the first post on this thread? I am curious as to what you think of it.
Hi Jodi, I had wondered what it meant in Jude by the 'Body of Moses'. Thanks for the read.Im cautious what I say because it's something we have to be carefull of, as is warned. But I will read here,
I certainly think Ed needs to be careful…Ed !
Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 23 2010,09:58) I certainly think Ed needs to be careful…Ed !
Hi Shimmer,What do I need to be careful of?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEDJ……….Guss what i have discovered who Satan IS According to Jesus it is PETER? Jesus said directly to Him GET behind Me Satan. Now we all know Peter was not a Demonic (BEING HIMSELF)> But if you understood that there is no (BEINGS) that is a Satan then you could understand that (ANYONE) who is an (ADVERSARY) OF GOD is a Satan. Rather it is Peter , Judas , You, Me , and Yes even GOD Himself can be a Adversary. Adversary is a descriptor of a SPIRIT (INTELLECT) and is an attribute expressing an attitude ,and anyone can have it. It can bring about both good as in the case of (JOB) or Evil . The adversarial Spirit is one of the Seven Spirits of GOD.
Here is how it works even in us…………Say you decide you want to do something you have a strong desire to, but Your adversarial Spirit (Intellect) see what you want from an opposite or adversarial view and it convinces you not to do it, it might have saved your life, because this opposing view gives you the incite to not do it. Most look at this Spirit as always Evil but in truth it can serve the GOD and produce Good also, it all depends on the circumstances surrounding it at the time.
There is (NO) Devil or SATAN who is in competition with GOD, GOD is in (TOTAL) Control of ALL THINGS . GOD uses it to bring forth His Plan and Purpose in all his creation. Jodi is Right in what She is saying. IMO
peace and love…………………………………………………….gene
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 23 2010,01:36) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 23 2010,01:20) Ed J, Satan means adversary, right?
Hi Jodi,Yes; now will you answer my questions?
If satan is not an evil entity, then explain these verses…
2Cor.2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us:
for we are not ignorant of his devices.Who's devices is the Apostle Paul talking about here?
1Thes.2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul,
once and again; but Satan hindered us.Who is the Apostle Paul speaking of that did this hindering?
1Tm.1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have
delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.Who is the Apostle Paul delivering Hymenaeus and Alexander over to?
Rev.12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,
which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.Who is being cast to Earth with the Angels here?
Rev.20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent,
which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,Just exactly who is being bound here?
Rev.20:7: And when the thousand years are expired,
Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,Who is being loosed out of his prison?
These are serious questions:
Please Jodi, take the time to answer them for us all; OK?Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)
Hi Ed J,Since you didn't think my first response was satisfactory, here's more-
2 Corinthians 11:25 Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27 in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness– 28 besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to stumble, and I do not burn with indignation? 30 If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity. 31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying. 32 In Damascus the governor, under Aretas the king, was guarding the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desiring to arrest me; 33 but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and escaped from his hands.
2Cor.2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices .
You asked, “Who's devices is the Apostle Paul talking about here?”
The Satan is the HUMAN AUTHORITIES who’s devices or plans are to beat, imprison and kill Christ’s followers. Sorry I don’t have the specific names of the people who actually beat Paul and drug him into prison. Have you heard of Nero Ed J?…. he was certainly the DEVIL and the SATAN at Paul’s time !!
1Thes.2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.
You asked, “Who is the Apostle Paul speaking of that did this hindering?”1 Thes 2:14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost. 17 But we, brethren, having been taken away from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavored more eagerly to see your face with great desire.
Who imprisoned Paul and kept him from traveling?…. surely not a spirit being, that is pure foolishness!!
It was a human authority of course!!
1 Timothy 1:18 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
You asked, “Who is the Apostle Paul delivering Hymenaeus and Alexander over to?”
That’s a good question, I really don’t know. What do you think?
This is interesting-
Acts 19:20 So the word of the Lord grew mightily and prevailed. 21 When these things were accomplished, Paul purposed in the Spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, “After I have been there, I must also see Rome.” 22 So he sent into Macedonia two of those who ministered to him, Timothy and Erastus, but he himself stayed in Asia for a time. 23 And about that time there arose a great commotion about the Way. 24 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, who made silver shrines of Diana, d brought no small profit to the craftsmen. 25 He called them together with the workers of similar occupation, and said: “Men, you know that we have our prosperity by this trade. 26 Moreover you see and hear that not only at Ephesus, but throughout almost all Asia, this Paul has persuaded and turned away many people, saying that they are not gods which are made with hands. 27 So not only is this trade of ours in danger of falling into disrepute, but also the temple of the great goddess Diana may be despised and her magnificence destroyed, e whom all Asia and the world worship.” 28 Now when they heard this, they were full of wrath and cried out, saying, “Great is Diana of the Ephesians!” 29 So the whole city was filled with confusion, and rushed into the theater with one accord, having seized Gaius and Aristarchus, Macedonians, Paul's travel companions. 30 And when Paul wanted to go in to the people, the disciples would not allow him. 31 Then some of the officials of Asia, who were his friends, sent to him pleading that he would not venture into the theater. 32 Some therefore cried one thing and some another, for the assembly was confused, and most of them did not know why they
had come together. 33 And they drew Alexander out of the multitude, the Jews putting him forward. And Alexander motioned with his hand, and wanted to make his defense to the people. 34 But when they found out that he was a Jew, all with one voice cried out for about two hours, “Great is Diana of the Ephesians!” 35 And when the city clerk had quieted the crowd, he said: “Men of Ephesus, what man is there who does not know that the city of the Ephesians is temple guardian of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Zeus? 36 Therefore, since these things cannot be denied, you ought to be quiet and do nothing rashly. 37 For you have brought these men here who are neither robbers of temples nor blasphemers of your f goddess. 38 Therefore, if Demetrius and his fellow craftsmen have a case against anyone, the courts are open and there are proconsuls. Let them bring charges against one another. 39 But if you have any other inquiry to make, it shall be determined in the lawful assembly. 40 For we are in danger of being called in question for today's uproar, there being no reason which we may give to account for this disorderly gathering.” 41 And when he had said these things, he dismissed the assembly.
Alexander must have been pretty nervous there for those two hours, amongst his ADVERSARIES!!
I already answered your questions on Revelation 20, as for Revelation 12, the dragon represents kings and of course the messengers would be the kings messengers. Compare to Judges 5!!Judges 5:19 “The kings came and fought ; Then fought the kings of Canaan At Taanach near the waters of Megiddo ; They took no plunder in silver. 20 “The stars fought from heaven, From their courses they fought against Sisera. 21 “The torrent of Kishon swept them away, The ancient torrent, the torrent Kishon. O my soul, march on with strength. 22 “Then the horses' hoofs beat From the dashing, the dashing of his valiant steeds. 23 'Curse Meroz,' said the angel of the LORD, 'Utterly curse its inhabitants ; Because they did not come to the help of the LORD, To the help of the LORD against the warriors.'
There exists no mention in the bible of evil messengers literally falling from the sky or from God’s righteous abode, where we are told earth is to become like WITH NO WAR and NO SIN to EVER OCCUR. We are told of men falling from heaven as representing falling from a high position in the OT. MEN of power and authority are being brought down in Revelation 12. In history we know there have been times in war when one side realizes that defeat is eminent, with the little time left instead of giving up they attempt to try and wreak as much havoc as they can until they are brought to their own death.
I use OT examples to understand the symbols given in Revelation 12, I don't follow Mainstream Traditional Doctrine of Fantasy and Foolishness that mimics pagan ignorance.
Around the time of the NT if there was ONE person worthy of receiving the Title Adversary or False Accuser it would be without a doubt NERO.
Christians didn't have time to fear NERO though apparently, according to mainstream Christian tradition, they were too busy fearing some invisible creature and all his supernatural powers worrying that they might be brainwashed by this creature to think evil and do evil.
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 23 2010,11:55) Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 23 2010,09:58) I certainly think Ed needs to be careful…Ed !
Hi Shimmer,What do I need to be careful of?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed, you have be carefull with the things you say and teach, you know what I mean, what is this you say…Quote satan's=74 name is Lucifer=74 known as the 'great i am'=74 and is the 'antichrist' of Rev.13:1. Quote ‘i am’ is Lucifer’s ‘title’, I tried to help you see Ed, but you didn't listen.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 24 2010,02:12) EDJ………. It can bring about both good as in the case of (JOB) or Evil . The adversarial Spirit is one of the Seven Spirits of GOD.
…IMO
peace and love…………………………………………………….gene
HI Gene,Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2010,02:19) The personification of a real Being call Satan as a individual does not really fit scripture ,
it appears that Satan Or ADVERSARY is more a spirit intellect that is (IN) people……………………gene
These questions are still waiting for you to answer them…
1) Job asked God if he could test himself ?
2) So then Job became an adversary against himself ? ?
3) Job then proceeded to blame God for him being an adversary against himself ? ? ?
4) Job then proceeded to give boils to himself to which he then blamed God for these boils ? ? ? ?Your 'intellect' logic is so far out there that it is no wonder you claim a 'captive will'; of your own making of course!
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 24 2010,04:00) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 23 2010,01:36) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 23 2010,01:20) Ed J, Satan means adversary, right?
Hi Jodi,Yes; now will you answer my questions?
If satan is not an evil entity, then explain these verses…
2Cor.2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us:
for we are not ignorant of his devices.1) Who's devices is the Apostle Paul talking about here?
1Thes.2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul,
once and again; but Satan hindered us.2) Who is the Apostle Paul speaking of that did this hindering?
1Tm.1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have
delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.3) Who is the Apostle Paul delivering Hymenaeus and Alexander over to?
Rev.12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,
which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.4) Who is being cast to Earth with the Angels here?
Rev.20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent,
which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,5) Just exactly who is being bound here?
Rev.20:7: And when the thousand years are expired,
Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,6) Who is being loosed out of his prison?
These are serious questions:
Please Jodi, take the time to answer them for us all; OK?Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)
Hi Ed J,Since you didn't think my first response was satisfactory, here's more-
2 Corinthians 11:25 Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27 in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness– 28 besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to stumble, and I do not burn with indignation? 30 If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity. 31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying. 32 In Damascus the governor, under Aretas the king, was guarding the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desiring to arrest me; 33 but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and escaped from his hands.
2Cor.2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices .
You asked, “Who's devices is the Apostle Paul talking about here?”
The Satan is the HUMAN AUTHORITIES who’s devices or plans are to beat, imprison and kill Christ’s followers. Sorry I don’t have the specific names of the people who actually beat Paul and drug him into prison. Have you heard of Nero Ed J?…. he was certainly the DEVIL and the SATAN at Paul’s time !!
1Thes.2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.
You asked, “Who is the Apostle Paul speaking of that did this hindering?”1 Thes 2:14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost. 17 But we, brethren, having been taken away from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavored more eagerly to see your face with great desire.
Who imprisoned Paul and kept him from traveling?…. surely not a spirit being, that is pure foolishness!!
It was a human authority of course!!
1 Timothy 1:18 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
You asked, “Who is the Apostle Paul delivering Hymenaeus and Alexander over to?”
That’s a good question, I really don’t know. What do you think?
This is interesting-
Acts 19:20 So the word of the Lord grew mightily and prevailed. 21 When these things were accomplished, Paul purposed in the Spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, “After I have been there, I must also see Rome.” 22 So he sent into Macedonia two of those who ministered to him, Timothy and Erastus, but he himself stayed in Asia for a time. 23 And about that time there arose a great commotion about the Way. 24 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, who made silver shrines of Diana, d brought no small profit to the craftsmen. 25 He called them together with the workers of similar occupation, and said: “Men, you know that we have our prosperity by this trade. 26 Moreover you see and hear that not only at Ephesus, but throughout almost all Asia, this Paul has persuaded and turned away many people, saying that they are not gods which are made with hands. 27 So not only is this trade of ours in danger of falling into disrepute, but also the temple of the great goddess Diana may be despised and her magnificence destroyed, e whom all Asia and the world worship.” 28 Now when they heard this, they were full of wrath and cried out, saying, “Great is Diana of the Ephesians!” 29 So the whole city was filled with confusion, and rushed into the theater with one accord, having seized Gaius and Aristarchus, Macedonians, Paul's travel companions. 30 And when Paul wanted to go in to the people, the disciples would not allow him. 31 Then
some of the officials of Asia, who were his friends, sent to him pleading that he would not venture into the theater. 32 Some therefore cried one thing and some another, for the assembly was confused, and most of them did not know why they had come together. 33 And they drew Alexander out of the multitude, the Jews putting him forward. And Alexander motioned with his hand, and wanted to make his defense to the people. 34 But when they found out that he was a Jew, all with one voice cried out for about two hours, “Great is Diana of the Ephesians!” 35 And when the city clerk had quieted the crowd, he said: “Men of Ephesus, what man is there who does not know that the city of the Ephesians is temple guardian of the great goddess Diana, and of the image which fell down from Zeus? 36 Therefore, since these things cannot be denied, you ought to be quiet and do nothing rashly. 37 For you have brought these men here who are neither robbers of temples nor blasphemers of your f goddess. 38 Therefore, if Demetrius and his fellow craftsmen have a case against anyone, the courts are open and there are proconsuls. Let them bring charges against one another. 39 But if you have any other inquiry to make, it shall be determined in the lawful assembly. 40 For we are in danger of being called in question for today's uproar, there being no reason which we may give to account for this disorderly gathering.” 41 And when he had said these things, he dismissed the assembly.
Alexander must have been pretty nervous there for those two hours, amongst his ADVERSARIES!!
I already answered your questions on Revelation 20, as for Revelation 12, the dragon represents kings and of course the messengers would be the kings messengers. Compare to Judges 5!!Judges 5:19 “The kings came and fought ; Then fought the kings of Canaan At Taanach near the waters of Megiddo ; They took no plunder in silver. 20 “The stars fought from heaven, From their courses they fought against Sisera. 21 “The torrent of Kishon swept them away, The ancient torrent, the torrent Kishon. O my soul, march on with strength. 22 “Then the horses' hoofs beat From the dashing, the dashing of his valiant steeds. 23 'Curse Meroz,' said the angel of the LORD, 'Utterly curse its inhabitants ; Because they did not come to the help of the LORD, To the help of the LORD against the warriors.'
There exists no mention in the bible of evil messengers literally falling from the sky or from God’s righteous abode, where we are told earth is to become like WITH NO WAR and NO SIN to EVER OCCUR. We are told of men falling from heaven as representing falling from a high position in the OT. MEN of power and authority are being brought down in Revelation 12. In history we know there have been times in war when one side realizes that defeat is eminent, with the little time left instead of giving up they attempt to try and wreak as much havoc as they can until they are brought to their own death.
I use OT examples to understand the symbols given in Revelation 12, I don't follow Mainstream Traditional Doctrine of Fantasy and Foolishness that mimics pagan ignorance.
Around the time of the NT if there was ONE person worthy of receiving the Title Adversary or False Accuser it would be without a doubt NERO.
Christians didn't have time to fear NERO though apparently, according to mainstream Christian tradition, they were too busy fearing some invisible creature and all his supernatural powers worrying that they might be brainwashed by this creature to think evil and do evil.
Hi Jodi,I see that you have attempted to answer questions number
1 and 2 to fit into your preconceived ideas of truth; excellent!Question #3 seems to have stumped you.
Hymenaeus and Alexander is being delivered over to
Lucifer the devil called Satan, who is the evil entity you deny!Could you please answer all seven of them?
I'm still waiting for your answers to questions #4, 5 and 6; thank you!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
