Delusions

[terraricca]

Quote (t8 @ July 10 2012,16:10)

Quote (seekingtruth @ July 09 2012,22:38) Why delusions are so hard to overcome (unsure of author) There is only one certain barrier to truth the conviction that you already have it. That is true. Although if you have the truth it should have that conviction. But if you have a conviction for something that is not true, then it appears to be hard for people to let that go. I think at least we should be open to other views and allow ourselves to be challenged. I myself just need to see proof to the contrary. Scriptural proof is good enough. I can change my mind with such because I consider myself a student.

quite so t8, I agree to that

[Lightenup]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 08 2012,23:10)

Pierre, Do you ask for the purpose to seek understanding or just to attempt to destroy and belittle?

Pierre,
Is your hesitancy to answer this indicating that you really do just want to have another attempt to destroy and belittle? If so, I will answer those who ask with a spirit of understanding.

You do not need to bother asking unless your heart is willing to try to understand and see another perspective of scripture which you do not presently see. The fruit is rotten otherwise if deep inside you are merely attempting to destroy and belittle.

We are known by our fruit, aren't we?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 08 2012,22:00)

Mike, How about not adjusting my statement. Just deal with it.

So then shall we just ignore all the scriptures that say “Son OF God”? Or shall we change them all to say “Son IN God” so they fit into your doctrine better?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 08 2012,22:03)

Mike, Can you please admit that you were in error in what you said here now that I have shown you that He is 'in' the Father as well as 'of' the Father?

How does quoting your words verbatim constitute an “error” on my part?  

Nor did I ever doubt that Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in him.  After all, it is scriptural, and scriptures are what I base my understanding on.  But how does Jesus being in the Father (like we also have the chance to be in the Father) change the fact that you think, “Jesus is a member of the unity that He is a son of”?

Perhaps you would like to revise that statement?  But be forewarned:  If you revise your statement, then we are right back where we were before, with Jesus being the Son of the Most High God, which would prohibit him from being the Most High God.

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 10 2012,17:41)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 08 2012,23:10) Pierre, Do you ask for the purpose to seek understanding or just to attempt to destroy and belittle? Pierre, Is your hesitancy to answer this indicating that you really do just want to have another attempt to destroy and belittle? If so, I will answer those who ask with a spirit of understanding. You do not need to bother asking unless your heart is willing to try to understand and see another perspective of scripture which you do not presently see. The fruit is rotten otherwise if deep inside you are merely attempting to destroy and belittle. We are known by our fruit, aren't we?

Kathi

Quote

Pierre, Is your hesitancy to answer this indicating that you really do just want to have another attempt to destroy and belittle?

keeping quiet some times it shows more from others

Quote

We are known by our fruit, aren't we?

and in this you right but this is also true about Gods people ,

only the pure in heart can qualify ,are you in Gods truth or you love yours more

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 09 2012,19:31)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 08 2012,22:03) Mike, Can you please admit that you were in error in what you said here now that I have shown you that He is 'in' the Father as well as 'of' the Father? How does quoting your words verbatim constitute an “error” on my part?   Nor did I ever doubt that Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in him.  After all, it is scriptural, and scriptures are what I base my understanding on.  But how does Jesus being in the Father (like we also have the chance to be in the Father) change the fact that you think, “Jesus is a member of the unity that He is a son of”? Perhaps you would like to revise that statement?  But be forewarned:  If you revise your statement, then we are right back where we were before, with Jesus being the Son of the Most High God, which would prohibit him from being the Most High God.

Mike,
this was your error:

Quote

You are not allowed to change the Bible's “OF” to “IN”, just so it suits your own man-made doctrine, are you?

The Bible has both that Jesus is of God and in God. I'm not changing what the Bible says.

I see that in your last post to me, you use my first statement instead of my adjusted statement written to help you. This is the second time in this thread that you act like I did not change that 'of' to 'in.' Why?

Also, if you think that the Father is the Lord of lords in the OT but not the Son, then where is Jesus said to be the Son of Lord? of even Son of the Lord? Think about it.

[Lightenup]

I'm in God's truth, Pierre. There are plenty of scriptures that show Jesus is Lord as in YHVH. My desire is to line up with God's truth.

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 09 2012,19:21)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 08 2012,22:00) Mike, How about not adjusting my statement. Just deal with it. So then shall we just ignore all the scriptures that say “Son OF God”?  Or shall we change them all to say “Son IN God” so they fit into your doctrine better?

How about you learn what scriptures mean when it mentions it either way?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 09 2012,18:49)

Mike, this was your error: Quote (mikeboll @ 64) You are not allowed to change the Bible's “OF” to “IN”, just so it suits your own man-made doctrine, are you?

What error?  We were never discussing whether or not Jesus was in the Father, Kathi.  We were discussing how Jesus could be the Son OF God Most High, and also BE God Most High at the same time.  The whole “in the Father” thing is just a diversion because you realized how silly this sounded:  “Jesus is a member of the unity that He is a son of”.

So do you now acknowledge that Jesus is NOT a member of the unity of which he is a son?  Or shall we keep on discussing how your statement would mean that Jesus is his own son, or at the very least, a part of his own father?

Quote (Lightenup @ July 09 2012,18:49)

I see that in your last post to me, you use my first statement instead of my adjusted statement written to help you. This is the second time in this thread that you act like I did not change that 'of' to 'in.' Why?

Because I don't want you to just divert away from that original statement.  I want to hear you either say you retract it, or that you truly still believe it.  You have done neither so far.

Quote (Lightenup @ July 09 2012,18:49)

Also, if you think that the Father is the Lord of lords in the OT but not the Son, then where is Jesus said to be the Son of Lord?

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

I think that since Jesus calls the Lord of heaven and earth “Father”, it is a sure bet that he is the Son of the Lord of heaven and earth.  Don't you?

[AndrewAD]

Thanks for all the warm welcomes.
It was my internet search on the trinity doctrine that led me to this site and the excellent article on the homepage.I spent the whole day and evening reading it.I really appreciated the spirit it was written in and the thorough examination of the scriptures.
I was raised Catholic and became a protestant/charismatic in my teens and have always believed this doctrine though it never really made sense sometimes.I must admit its a lot tougher doctrine than the pre-trib rapture or tithing and I'm not willing yet to tell my Christian friends that I no longer accept it and wont unless I feel the Lord leads me to.But I do pray to see and understand the truth.
I noticed the TS mentioned unitarianism being one of the delusions and I know most unitarians are quite liberal and many or most deny Christs divinity;which from what I see in scripture is that Christ is the divine Son of God but not equal to the Father.So my question is what theological name do most of you who dont believe in the trinity call yourselves? Arians,binitarians,unitarians,apostolic? I know we dont need theological names but I ask because I'm not certain yet what I might consider myself.Cant one be a”unitarian”in the strict sense of the word and still believe in Christs divinity?

[terraricca]

Quote (AndrewAD @ July 10 2012,19:57)

Thanks for all the warm welcomes. It was my internet search on the trinity doctrine that led me to this site and the excellent article on the homepage.I spent the whole day and evening reading it.I really appreciated the spirit it was written in and the thorough examination of the scriptures. I was raised Catholic and became a protestant/charismatic in my teens and have always believed this doctrine though it never really made sense sometimes.I must admit its a lot tougher doctrine than the pre-trib rapture or tithing and I'm not willing yet to tell my Christian friends that I no longer accept it and wont unless I feel the Lord leads me to.But I do pray to see and understand the truth. I noticed the TS mentioned unitarianism being one of the delusions and I know most unitarians are quite liberal and many or most deny Christs divinity;which from what I see in scripture is that Christ is the divine Son of God but not equal to the Father.So my question is what theological name do most of you who dont believe in the trinity call yourselves? Arians,binitarians,unitarians,apostolic? I know we dont need theological names but I ask because I'm not certain yet what I might consider myself.Cant one be a”unitarian”in the strict sense of the word and still believe in Christs divinity?

Hi

what about just a true Christian seeker of the truth in Gods word???

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 10 2012,18:53)

I'm in God's truth, Pierre. There are plenty of scriptures that show Jesus is Lord as in YHVH. My desire is to line up with God's truth.

Kathi

for me please tell us what you do believe in

like what and who is Christ who his God his father

who are the 144k

and please back it up with scriptures .

thank you

[AndrewAD]

Quote (terraricca @ July 10 2012,13:14)

Quote (AndrewAD @ July 10 2012,19:57) Thanks for all the warm welcomes. It was my internet search on the trinity doctrine that led me to this site and the excellent article on the homepage.I spent the whole day and evening reading it.I really appreciated the spirit it was written in and the thorough examination of the scriptures. I was raised Catholic and became a protestant/charismatic in my teens and have always believed this doctrine though it never really made sense sometimes.I must admit its a lot tougher doctrine than the pre-trib rapture or tithing and I'm not willing yet to tell my Christian friends that I no longer accept it and wont unless I feel the Lord leads me to.But I do pray to see and understand the truth. I noticed the TS mentioned unitarianism being one of the delusions and I know most unitarians are quite liberal and many or most deny Christs divinity;which from what I see in scripture is that Christ is the divine Son of God but not equal to the Father.So my question is what theological name do most of you who dont believe in the trinity call yourselves? Arians,binitarians,unitarians,apostolic? I know we dont need theological names but I ask because I'm not certain yet what I might consider myself.Cant one be a”unitarian”in the strict sense of the word and still believe in Christs divinity? Hi what about just a true Christian seeker of the truth in Gods word???

yes thats what its really all about,thank you
and I do just want to be and do that
and to shine Gods love and light to others

[Lightenup]

Hi AndrewAD,

I call myself a Christian. I don't care much for extra-Biblical labels. The labels may help somewhat to understand one's Christology but when the rubber meets the road, not all trinitarians believe the same, nor arians, nor unitarians, etc.

From what I can tell, you do not understand trinitarians belief in the same way that I understand it. For instance, trinitarians agree that the Father is greater in authority. The equality is in the nature and essence between the three and that the three are in unity. They are one unity made up of three eternal persons, each having the deity nature and together united as one supreme authority over all creation.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (AndrewAD @ July 09 2012,19:57)

I noticed the TS mentioned unitarianism being one of the delusions and I know most unitarians are quite liberal and many or most deny Christs divinity……………

Hi Andrew,

I came to HN the same exact way.  I was looking into the Trinity Doctrine and came across t8's publication on it, and thought this would be a good place to discuss scriptures with others.

And I hear you about the “Unitarian” title, because they don't believe in the divinity of Jesus, or that he pre-existed his fleshly existence on earth.

So for those of us who believe Jesus existed with his God as a spirit being before being sent to die on a tree, but don't believe he IS the God he is the Son of, I don't think there is an official name.

Pierre has a good idea………….. just call us the “True Believers of Scripture”.  

[Lightenup]

Mike,
Nobody believes that Jesus is the person that He is the Son of except Modalists, from what I can tell.

[seekingtruth]

terraricca,

Quote

it seems to me that we all receive the scriptures ,but not all perceive it as the truth,of God ,and need to be interpreted by men.

Sorry unlike you I may have had scripture from the beginning but 32 years later I'm still discovering the truths in it.

As to “not perceiving it as the truth,of God ,and need to be interpreted by men” In the case of those not denying scripture but only interpreting it differently this is what I was cautioning about:

1 Corinthians 4:5 So don’t make judgments about anyone ahead of time—before the Lord returns. For he will bring our darkest secrets to light and will reveal our private motives. Then God will give to each one whatever praise is due.”

Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

As I've stated, false teachings should be confronted but it is not my belittling, witty words, or cutting quips that will convince those of differing views, but scripture handled correctly presented with a genuine concern that is more likely to reach them.

Proverbs 18:19 An insulted brother is harder to win back than a city with strong walls. Arguments separate people like the strong bars of a palace gate.

Wm

[terraricca]

Quote (AndrewAD @ July 10 2012,20:28)

Quote (terraricca @ July 10 2012,13:14) Quote (AndrewAD @ July 10 2012,19:57) Thanks for all the warm welcomes. It was my internet search on the trinity doctrine that led me to this site and the excellent article on the homepage.I spent the whole day and evening reading it.I really appreciated the spirit it was written in and the thorough examination of the scriptures. I was raised Catholic and became a protestant/charismatic in my teens and have always believed this doctrine though it never really made sense sometimes.I must admit its a lot tougher doctrine than the pre-trib rapture or tithing and I'm not willing yet to tell my Christian friends that I no longer accept it and wont unless I feel the Lord leads me to.But I do pray to see and understand the truth. I noticed the TS mentioned unitarianism being one of the delusions and I know most unitarians are quite liberal and many or most deny Christs divinity;which from what I see in scripture is that Christ is the divine Son of God but not equal to the Father.So my question is what theological name do most of you who dont believe in the trinity call yourselves? Arians,binitarians,unitarians,apostolic? I know we dont need theological names but I ask because I'm not certain yet what I might consider myself.Cant one be a”unitarian”in the strict sense of the word and still believe in Christs divinity? Hi what about just a true Christian seeker of the truth in Gods word??? yes thats what its really all about,thank you and I do just want to be and do that and to shine Gods love and light to others

Andrew

the word true means a lot to Christ and his father ,because all the universe is lay out in Gods truth ,now being true to that truth is the only way we can approach God and receive his blessings ,

so what is the truth ???YOUR WORD HIS TRUTH 'SAYS JESUS;

JN 17:6 “ I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
JN 17:14 “I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
JN 17:17 “ Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.

SO IF WE CHANGE GOD S WORD WE hAVE JUDGE IT NOT TO BE TRUE .RIGHT

[terraricca]

Quote (seekingtruth @ July 10 2012,20:38)

terraricca, Quote it seems to me that we all receive the scriptures ,but not all perceive it as the truth,of God ,and need to be interpreted by men. Sorry unlike you I may have had scripture from the beginning but 32 years later I'm still discovering the truths in it. As to “not perceiving it as the truth,of God ,and need to be interpreted by men” In the case of those not denying scripture but only interpreting it differently this is what I was cautioning about: 1 Corinthians 4:5 So don’t make judgments about anyone ahead of time—before the Lord returns. For he will bring our darkest secrets to light and will reveal our private motives. Then God will give to each one whatever praise is due.” Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand. As I've stated, false teachings should be confronted but it is not my belittling, witty words, or cutting quips that will convince those of differing views, but scripture handled correctly presented with a genuine concern that is more likely to reach them. Proverbs 18:19 An insulted brother is harder to win back than a city with strong walls. Arguments separate people like the strong bars of a palace gate. Wm

ST

Quote

Sorry unlike you I may have had scripture from the beginning but 32 years later I'm still discovering the truths in it. As to “not perceiving it as the truth,of God ,and need to be interpreted by men” In the case of those not denying scripture but only interpreting it differently this is what I was cautioning about:

this I agree with ,but if some one thinks he is belittled in his ego ,then it is not me that did it but the spirit in him,

we as true Christian should always remain humble and not fall in the young rich man class,

now if some one stick to the truth of scriptures we will all benefit from it ,but not all are true to scriptures ,and years pass by and some conversation may go hot ,but I will never do it out of anger,or malicious intend ,it out true love ,

[seekingtruth]

Quote (t8 @ July 10 2012,06:10)

That is true. Although if you have the truth it should have that conviction. But if you have a conviction for something that is not true, then it appears to be hard for people to let that go. I think at least we should be open to other views and allow ourselves to be challenged. I myself just need to see proof to the contrary. Scriptural proof is good enough. I can change my mind with such because I consider myself a student.

I struggle with conviction as I have found myself changing positions on some very major issues over the last 10 years, ever since I discovered that I should determine doctrine from scriptures, not from teachings of a denomination.

Lately I have been getting more confident as I've seen previous conflicts disappear and my new beliefs have been withstanding the confrontation of others.  

Wm

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