Creation in pain

[SimplyForgiven]

A Question for those who believe that Christ was created

Romans 8
19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Regardless of what is known about what I believe,
This is a honest Question
Do you believe Jesus is included in this passage in verse 22,

Tell me your reasons:

[SimplyForgiven]

To All,
By the way, consider Collossians 1:15 as reference

[Ed J]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 29 2010,20:00)

A Question for those who believe that Christ was created

Hi SF,

Are you sure you don't mean: was Jesus procreated?
Because that is how we all became creatures in Creation!
Colossians 1:15 doesn't have anything to do with your question?

But Romans 1:22-25 does…

Romans 1:22-25 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,
and to birds(false rapture doctrines), and fourfooted beasts(their religious golden calves), and
creeping things(serpent doctrines). Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through
the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: Who changed
the truth of God into a lie(2Thess.2:11), and worshiped and served the creature(Jesus) more than
the Creator(JEHOVAH), who is blessed for ever. Amen. I explain what this image is, CLICK HERE to see!

Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)

[mikeboll64]

Hey D,

I say “NO”.

mike

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2010,20:15)

Hey D, I say “NO”.   mike

SF

i say no aswell

because his time was the end of the groaneth,

now the hope in faith was lay out to all

Pierre

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2010,07:15)

Hey D, I say “NO”.   mike

Mike why do you say no?
Didnt you say when all creation is mentioned togther this includes Jesus?

even though this is in the context of creature as well.

Correct me if got your ideas wrong.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 01 2010,07:22)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2010,20:15) Hey D, I say “NO”.   mike SF i say no aswell because his time was the end of the groaneth, now the hope in faith was lay out to all Pierre

Explain more.
What do you mean?

So he isnt included because he was going to end the Groantheth?

Is this fair, i mean didnt you say that he is firstborn of every creature? so wouldnt that mean that he is included?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 03 2010,19:21)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2010,07:15) Hey D, I say “NO”.   mike Mike why do you say no? Didnt you say when all creation is mentioned togther this includes Jesus? even though this is in the context of creature as well. Correct me if got your ideas wrong.

Hi D,

Paul said he and his disciples had preached the good news to “all of creation”.  Do you think Paul preached to Jesus and the angels?  It was his zealous way of saying “everybody”.

Much like we would metaphorically use it today.  “EVERYBODY” was at the party!  Or as a good Casting Crowns song goes, “We'll sing it 'til the whole world hears.”  They don't really mean the planet Earth itself has ears, do they?  It is a zealous way to say they will preach the gospel to every living human possible.

Do you think Paul includes angels in the context here? I don't.  But aren't they a part of creation?

peace and love,
mike

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 05 2010,07:46)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 03 2010,19:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2010,07:15) Hey D, I say “NO”.   mike Mike why do you say no? Didnt you say when all creation is mentioned togther this includes Jesus? even though this is in the context of creature as well. Correct me if got your ideas wrong. Hi D, Paul said he and his disciples had preached the good news to “all of creation”.  Do you think Paul preached to Jesus and the angels?  It was his zealous way of saying “everybody”. Much like we would metaphorically use it today.  “EVERYBODY” was at the party!  Or as a good Casting Crowns song goes, “We'll sing it 'til the whole world hears.”  They don't really mean the planet Earth itself has ears, do they?  It is a zealous way to say they will preach the gospel to every living human possible. Do you think Paul includes angels in the context here?  I don't.  But aren't they a part of creation? peace and love, mike

Mike,

Well honestly Of course i dont believe that this includes Jesus,
But if you believe he is created this hits several factors within this scritpure.

about what you said, yes i agree but is that whats going on here?

What do you think its saying?
Romans 8
19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
So something other than human.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
So is this the curse that Genesis talks about the animals changing and stuff becuase what Adam did.
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.  
So again something other than Sons of God
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
So the “whole” creation has been in somekind of pain togethor suffering in imperfection.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
So not only the creature (“nonhuman” or not “sons of God”)  but the Sons of God as well, until the redemptoin of our body.

So of course this is talking about Creatoin/animals/creatures/
shouldnt the created firstborn of every creature be included in this scripture?

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 30 2010,23:39)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 29 2010,20:00) A Question for those who believe that Christ was created Hi SF, Are you sure you don't mean: was Jesus procreated? Because that is how we all became creatures in Creation! Colossians 1:15 doesn't have anything to do with your question? But Romans 1:22-25 does… Romans 1:22-25 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds(false rapture doctrines), and fourfooted beasts(their religious golden calves), and creeping things(serpent doctrines). Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie(2Thess.2:11), and worshiped and served the creature(Jesus) more than the Creator(JEHOVAH), who is blessed for ever. Amen. I explain what this image is, CLICK HERE to see! Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH! יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)

Ed J,
I dont know if im responding for the sake of amusement or for curiousity, im honestly not sure if i even want to ask.

Where do you come up with the notion that the verse you presented is referencing about the Rapture or serpent doctrines?

where are you getting these ideas from?

[Ed J]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 05 2010,18:53)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 30 2010,23:39) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 29 2010,20:00) A Question for those who believe that Christ was created Hi SF, Are you sure you don't mean: was Jesus procreated? Because that is how we all became creatures in Creation! Colossians 1:15 doesn't have anything to do with your question? But Romans 1:22-25 does… Romans 1:22-25 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds(false rapture doctrines), and fourfooted beasts(their religious golden calves), and creeping things(serpent doctrines). Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie(2Thess.2:11), and worshiped and served the creature(Jesus) more than the Creator(JEHOVAH), who is blessed for ever. Amen. I explain what this image is, CLICK HERE to see! Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH! יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16) Ed J, I dont know if im responding for the sake of amusement or for curiousity, im honestly not sure if i even want to ask. Where do you come up with the notion that the verse you presented is referencing about (1)the Rapture or (2)serpent doctrines? where are you getting these ideas from?

Hi SF,

1) Habakkuk 2:9 Woe to him that coveteth an evil covetousness to his house,
that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil! Thou
hast consulted shame to thy house by cutting off many people, and hast sinned against thy soul. (Jer.49:16)

Is. 5:18-21 Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart rope:
That say, Let him make speed, and hasten his work, that we may see it: and let the counsel of the Holy One
of Israel draw nigh and come, that we may know it(Click Here)! Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil;
that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

2) Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro,
and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men,
and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[SimplyForgiven]

Ed J,
Where is the rapture mentioned here and the serpent doctrines?
how do you know that birds mean “rapture” and serpent refers to “serpent doctrines”

you know that Paul was referring to the pagan gods they worship right?

[mikeboll64]

Hi D,

Let me put it in words I can actually understand.  I don't talk like people from England in the 17th century, so I don't use a Bible translation that does.

Romans 8:16-23 NIV
16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. (certain ones of mankind) 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings (certain ones of mankind) in order that we may also share in his glory.

Future Glory
18I consider that our present sufferings (certain ones of mankind) are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation ( certain ones of mankind) waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation (all of mankind) was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation (all of mankind) itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22We know that the whole creation (all of mankind) has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, (certain ones of mankind) groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

ALL PARENTHESIS AND WORDS WITHIN IN THE SCRIPTURE ABOVE ARE MINE.

This is how I understand it.  Who else but mankind are:

1.  God's children?
2.  Heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ?
3.  Share in Christ's sufferings for the gospel?
4.  Wait eagerly for the sons of God to be revealed?
5.  Suffer the frustration of the division that Christ brought in the hope of being liberated from our slavery to death?

And 22 and 23 are saying that ALL of mankind is groaning about this life of pain and sorrow……and EVEN those of mankind who had received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost are groaning on the inside – while eagerly anticipating deliverance.

That's how I understand it.  I think the whole thing is about mankind.  I don't think it relates to any animals or rocks or trees or angels or Jesus Christ – even though they ALL are a part of the creation of God.

peace and love,
mike

[terraricca]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 06 2010,01:51)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 05 2010,07:46) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 03 2010,19:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2010,07:15) Hey D, I say “NO”.   mike Mike why do you say no? Didnt you say when all creation is mentioned togther this includes Jesus? even though this is in the context of creature as well. Correct me if got your ideas wrong. Hi D, Paul said he and his disciples had preached the good news to “all of creation”.  Do you think Paul preached to Jesus and the angels?  It was his zealous way of saying “everybody”. Much like we would metaphorically use it today.  “EVERYBODY” was at the party!  Or as a good Casting Crowns song goes, “We'll sing it 'til the whole world hears.”  They don't really mean the planet Earth itself has ears, do they?  It is a zealous way to say they will preach the gospel to every living human possible. Do you think Paul includes angels in the context here?  I don't.  But aren't they a part of creation? peace and love, mike Mike, Well honestly Of course i dont believe that this includes Jesus, But if you believe he is created this hits several factors within this scritpure. about what you said, yes i agree but is that whats going on here? What do you think its saying? Romans 8 19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. So something other than human. 20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, So is this the curse that Genesis talks about the animals changing and stuff becuase what Adam did. 21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.   So again something other than Sons of God 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. So the “whole” creation has been in somekind of pain togethor suffering in imperfection. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. So not only the creature (“nonhuman” or not “sons of God”)  but the Sons of God as well, until the redemptoin of our body. So of course this is talking about Creatoin/animals/creatures/ shouldnt the created firstborn of every creature be included in this scripture?

hi D

no, to your last question ;
now what they talking about is the return of God blessing on all creation,
Me in my hearth i am not happy and can not truly rejoices my self knowing that people everywhere are killed ,abused ,sick, and poor so they could not feed themselves,and other misery,
and animals abused and killed.
this is the direct result of Adam sin,
and so it is in heaven they have watch it for century s all what happen ,how could a true being be happy and see and understand all what happen.

the earth is the theater with all the heaven watching ,

I will be happy wen all God people will be happy,

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Well said Pierre. I have many of the same concerns, sorrows…….and HOPE!

mike

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 07 2010,19:52)

Well said Pierre.  I have many of the same concerns, sorrows…….and HOPE! mike

hi mike

i know you would feel it this way,all true Christians feel it

Pierre

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 06 2010,10:35)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 06 2010,01:51) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 05 2010,07:46) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 03 2010,19:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2010,07:15) Hey D, I say “NO”.   mike Mike why do you say no? Didnt you say when all creation is mentioned togther this includes Jesus? even though this is in the context of creature as well. Correct me if got your ideas wrong. Hi D, Paul said he and his disciples had preached the good news to “all of creation”.  Do you think Paul preached to Jesus and the angels?  It was his zealous way of saying “everybody”. Much like we would metaphorically use it today.  “EVERYBODY” was at the party!  Or as a good Casting Crowns song goes, “We'll sing it 'til the whole world hears.”  They don't really mean the planet Earth itself has ears, do they?  It is a zealous way to say they will preach the gospel to every living human possible. Do you think Paul includes angels in the context here?  I don't.  But aren't they a part of creation? peace and love, mike Mike, Well honestly Of course i dont believe that this includes Jesus, But if you believe he is created this hits several factors within this scritpure. about what you said, yes i agree but is that whats going on here? What do you think its saying? Romans 8 19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. So something other than human. 20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, So is this the curse that Genesis talks about the animals changing and stuff becuase what Adam did. 21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.   So again something other than Sons of God 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. So the “whole” creation has been in somekind of pain togethor suffering in imperfection. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. So not only the creature (“nonhuman” or not “sons of God”)  but the Sons of God as well, until the redemptoin of our body. So of course this is talking about Creatoin/animals/creatures/ shouldnt the created firstborn of every creature be included in this scripture? hi D no, to your last question ; now what they talking about is the return of God blessing on all creation, Me in my hearth i am not happy and can not truly rejoices my self knowing that people everywhere are killed ,abused ,sick, and poor so they could not feed themselves,and other misery, and animals abused and killed. this is the direct result of Adam sin, and so it is in heaven they have watch it for century s all what happen ,how could a true being be happy and see and understand all what happen. the earth is the theater with all the heaven watching , I will be happy wen all God people will be happy, Pierre

totally agree, but since there are those that believe that Jesus is part of this creation, than it would lead others to think that such things that relate to creation would include Jesus.

[mikeboll64]

Hi D,

It's just not a good scripture to prove your belief…..that's all.

Because like I said, rocks and stars and such are also a part of the creation of God, but I don't think rocks and stars are “groaning” either. And although Jesus and the angels ARE a part of the creation of the creation of God, they are not included in this verse.

Paul is saying “creation”, but in this case meaning “mankind”. IMO

peace and love,
mike

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 08 2010,06:00)

Hi D, It's just not a good scripture to prove your belief…..that's all. Because like I said, rocks and stars and such are also a part of the creation of God, but I don't think rocks and stars are “groaning” either.  And although Jesus and the angels ARE a part of the creation of the creation of God, they are not included in this verse. Paul is saying “creation”, but in this case meaning “mankind”. IMO peace and love, mike

Hi Mike,
I dont get what you mean.

So are you saying the “creation” thats groaning is what exactly?

[mikeboll64]

What? In English, please.

Love to you brother D,
mike

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