Crackpottery

[Ed J]

Quote

I feel compelled to remind myself and others not to take disagreements personally, to keep a loving attitude and an open mind, I believe truth will win out

Good advice Wm!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Lightenup]

I agree, good posts Wm!

I would like to add a few crackpot doctrines…

#1 Jesus did not create anything.
#2 Jesus was not worshiped by His disciples.
#3 The God of gods and the Lord of lords that the God of gods sent are not one.

The truth:
#1-John 1:3 All things were made through him (the Word), and without him (the Word) was not any thing made that was made.

#2-Matt 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.
Luke 24:51 While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven. 52And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
Matt 28:17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted.

#3-Rev 17:4 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”
Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,
John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.”

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 03 2012,00:28)

I agree, good posts Wm! I would like to add a few crackpot doctrines… #1 Jesus did not create anything. #2 Jesus was not worshiped by His disciples. #3 The God of gods and the Lord of lords that the God of gods sent are not one. The truth: #1-John 1:3 All things were made through him (the Word), and without him (the Word) was not any thing made that was made. #2-Matt 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him. Luke 24:51 While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven. 52And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, Matt 28:17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. #3-Rev 17:4 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.” Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.”

i see now this topic as become futile in his own meaning

[mikeboll64]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Dec. 02 2012,02:44)

Mike, Please believe I did not write this with you in mind (though if I made a list I'm sure you would have been on it ). I feel compelled to remind myself and others not to take disagreements personally, to keep a loving attitude and an open mind, I believe truth will win out and those from the sidelines are encouraged more from truth presented (even if your opponent rejects it at the time) in a loving manner, than winning the argument and destroying your opponent in the process. “Truth” used as a weapon to beat someone into submission does little to change the heart, only the Holy Spirit can do that and that's what I believe Paul meant by “To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. Give God time to work. My opinion – Wm

Wm,

I fear that you are a much more mellow person than I will ever be.  

John the Baptist didn't mince words with the Pharisees.  Neither did Jesus. Neither did any of the prophets God sent to proclaim His word – and the punishments for not following it.

In fact, Jesus said (in effect), The scriptures in which you think you'll find eternal life are the VERY SCRIPTURES THAT TEACH YOU ALL ABOUT ME!  

Am I so different if I tell Kathi, The Lord you try to make into your God is the VERY LORD WHO TOLD US THAT OUR GOD WAS ALSO HIS GOD!  

Anyway, thanks for sharing Paul's words.  I will (once again) work on being “nice” to these heretics if I can.  

[seekingtruth]

Quote

I fear that you are a much more mellow person than I will ever be.

Not really, I was much like you in my “youth” but 33 years of being a christian, during which I discovered my own arrogance and stubborn stupidity (not saying that about you) I suppose I have mellowed possibly even learned a little humility (not that I can brag about that, I have much to be humble about). Upon seeing yourself more accurately it is easier to be patient with others or maybe even to realize that it might of been me who was the one being “narrow minded” (heretic).

So is it any different? I don't know, unlike the Son of God or a prophet, I do not feel qualified to judge others characters, only their ideas.

My opinion – Wm

[Lightenup]

Another good post William! Thank you!!

[mikeboll64]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Dec. 06 2012,04:54)

Quote In fact, Jesus said (in effect), The scriptures in which you think you'll find eternal life are the VERY SCRIPTURES THAT TEACH YOU ALL ABOUT ME!   Am I so different if I tell Kathi, The Lord you try to make into your God is the VERY LORD WHO TOLD US THAT OUR GOD WAS ALSO HIS GOD! I don't know, unlike the Son of God or a prophet, I do not feel qualified to judge others characters, only their ideas. My opinion – Wm

Are we required to be either Jesus or a prophet of God in order to use the scriptures for “teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness”?  (2 Tim 3:16)

Believe me, it is the IDEAS that I rebuke scripturally – not their character. But in the process of rebuking one of their ideas that they really, really WANT to be the scriptural truth, their real character is soon displayed for all to see.

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 07 2012,07:48)

Quote (seekingtruth @ Dec. 06 2012,04:54) Quote In fact, Jesus said (in effect), The scriptures in which you think you'll find eternal life are the VERY SCRIPTURES THAT TEACH YOU ALL ABOUT ME!   Am I so different if I tell Kathi, The Lord you try to make into your God is the VERY LORD WHO TOLD US THAT OUR GOD WAS ALSO HIS GOD! I don't know, unlike the Son of God or a prophet, I do not feel qualified to judge others characters, only their ideas. My opinion – Wm Are we required to be either Jesus or a prophet of God in order to use the scriptures for “teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness”?  (2 Tim 3:16) Believe me, it is the IDEAS that I rebuke scripturally – not their character.  But in the process of rebuking one of their ideas that they really, really WANT to be the scriptural truth, their real character is soon displayed for all to see.

Mike

that is right ,our character his what we believe ,think,do,hopes,and live,and say,

so when someone wrights a comment he also shows ;his own character and believes ,all this by the description of their comments ,their actions would even show more ;Jn 2:23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name.
Jn 2:24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men.
Jn 2:25 He did not need man’s testimony about man, for he knew what was in a man.

But the truth and the ones that apply it are more concerned with Gods glory than being right according to them selves ,

[Proclaimer]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Dec. 07 2012,00:54)

So is it any different? I don't know, unlike the Son of God or a prophet, I do not feel qualified to judge others characters, only their ideas.

Agreed.

Titus 1:9:
He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 29 2012,10:50)

Do you consider yourself a Christian, t8? Do you consider those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God and one with the Father, together with the Holy Spirit, as non-Christians?

What are you on about?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 03 2012,10:13)

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 03 2012,00:28) I agree, good posts Wm! I would like to add a few crackpot doctrines… #1 Jesus did not create anything. #2 Jesus was not worshiped by His disciples. #3 The God of gods and the Lord of lords that the God of gods sent are not one. The truth: #1-John 1:3 All things were made through him (the Word), and without him (the Word) was not any thing made that was made. #2-Matt 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him. Luke 24:51 While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven. 52And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, Matt 28:17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. #3-Rev 17:4 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.” Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.” i see now this topic as become futile in his own meaning

Ha ha. Exactly what I was thinking.

You list crackpot doctrines, then crackpots list biblical doctrines, or doctrines that deny the crackpot ones.

Although in LU's case she rewords some in her list slightly to make them out to be something else.

Who for example who doesn't believe that Jesus was not worshiped. We all know that the disciples worshiped Jesus. But as the son of God. I thought that was at least a little disingenuous of her. Even Believers in Christ can be worshiped too. She should have said, “worshiped as God'. But then she knows that it is not written, so words it her way instead.

That in itself is crackpottery at work.

[Lightenup]

Quote

Who for example who doesn't believe that Jesus was not worshiped.

Do you mean to say:
Who for example doesn't believe that Jesus was worshiped?

If so, the answer is Mike for one.

The second 'the theos' is worshiped. I rest my case!

[Lightenup]

Another crackpot doctrine newly surfaced:

“Even Believers in Christ can be worshiped too.”

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 11 2012,03:22)

Another crackpot doctrine newly surfaced: “Even Believers in Christ can be worshiped too.”

kathi

and why not ;with a word like “WORSHIP” THAT MEANS SO MANY THINGS ;

worship
 

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wor·ship
[wur-ship] Show IPA noun, verb, wor·shiped, wor·ship·ing or ( especially British ) wor·shipped, wor·ship·ping.

noun
1.
reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.

2.
formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.

3.
adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.

4.
the object of adoring reverence or regard.

5.
( initial capital letter ) British . a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually preceded by Your, His, or Her ).

Relevant Questions

What Is Worship?

What Does Worship Mean?

Who Do Hindus Worship?

How Do Buddhists Worship…

verb (used with object)
6.
to render religious reverence and homage to.

7.
to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).

00:05

Worship is one of our favorite verbs.

So is hornswoggle. Does it mean:

to flee; abscond:

to swindle, cheat, hoodwink, or hoax.

LEARN MORE FUN, UNUSUAL VERBS WITH WORD DYNAMO…

verb (used without object)
8.
to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity.

9.
to attend services of divine worship.

10.
to feel an adoring reverence or regard.

——————————————————————————–

Origin:
before 900; (noun) Middle English wors ( c ) hipe, worthssipe, Old English worthscipe, variant of weorthscipe; see worth, -ship; (v.) Middle English, derivative of the noun

Related forms
wor·ship·er, noun.

wor·ship·ing·ly, adverb.

mis·wor·ship, verb, mis·wor·shiped, mis·wor·ship·ing or ( especially British ) mis·wor·shipped, mis·wor·ship·ping.

pre·wor·ship, noun, verb, pre·wor·shiped, pre·wor·ship·ing or ( especially British ) pre·wor·shipped, pre·wor·ship·ping.

self-wor·ship, noun.
EXPAND

Synonyms
3. honor, homage, adoration, idolatry. 7. honor, venerate, revere, adore, glorify, idolize, adulate.

Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2012.

YOU CAN EVEN WORSHIP OURSELF IF YOU LIKE

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 11 2012,11:21)

Quote Who for example who doesn't believe that Jesus was not worshiped. Do you mean to say: Who for example doesn't believe that Jesus was worshiped? If so, the answer is Mike for one. The second 'the theos' is worshiped. I rest my case!

LU.

Please unrest your case.

Jesus is worshiped as the son of God and as the Lamb of God. Not as God. And just as the divine council can be called theos, they are not worshiped as THE theos either.

This is a true saying.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 11 2012,11:22)

Another crackpot doctrine newly surfaced: “Even Believers in Christ can be worshiped too.”

Please uncrackpot that one LU.

Revelation 3:9
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

The word 'worship' here is 'proskuneo' in case there was any doubt.

So there you go. Proskuneo does not mean worship God in all cases. If people 'proskuneo' Jesus as the son OF God and as the Lamb OF God, then that is because he is both of these.

[Lightenup]

If people proskuneo Jesus and the Father as the theos, that is because together they are one corporate theos and called YHWH. If they were not, then that would be an abomination.

2 Kings 17:35 When the LORD (YHWH) made a covenant with the Israelites, he commanded them: “Do not worship any other gods or bow down to them, serve them or sacrifice to them.

[Lightenup]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 10 2012,21:55)

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 11 2012,11:22) Another crackpot doctrine newly surfaced: “Even Believers in Christ can be worshiped too.” Please uncrackpot that one LU. Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. The word 'worship' here is 'proskuneo' in case there was any doubt. So there you go. Proskuneo does not mean worship God in all cases. If people 'proskuneo' Jesus as the son OF God and as the Lamb OF God, then that is because he is both of these.

Christians WILL NOT be worshiped. Where Christians gather, that is where the Jews will worship the Father AND the Son…in the Christian church.

Read and learn:
John Gill's commentary

behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet; the conversion of the Jews is here intended. The worship here spoken of is not either a religious or civil worship of the church, for the church is not the object of worship; only before whom, and at whose feet, this worship shall be given to God in the most humble and hearty manner: the sense is, that the convinced and converted Jews shall come to the church, and in the most lowly and contrite manner acknowledge their former blindness, furious zeal, and violent hatred of the Christians, and shall profess their faith in Christ; shall join themselves to the church, and partake of the ordinances of the Gospel with them; and shall worship God and Jesus Christ, their Lord and King, in their presence, and at their feet:

Case remains closed!

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 11 2012,10:41)

If people proskuneo Jesus and the Father as the theos, that is because together they are one corporate theos and called YHWH. If they were not, then that would be an abomination. 2 Kings 17:35 When the LORD (YHWH) made a covenant with the Israelites, he commanded them: “Do not worship any other gods or bow down to them, serve them or sacrifice to them.

K

What it mean in this verse is rendering a cult as an worship to any other gods,

You have to see and understand this with the first commandment ,

[Proclaimer]

kathi, this word can mean to worship, honour, or bow down. So the Father is honoured as God, no argument there. Jesus is honoured as the son of God and Lamb of God in scripture, an argument here for some reason. And we can be honoured too.

Is it not written that a man should honour his wife and a wife her husband. Are husbands God, are wives God.

No kathi. And running off and googling a refutation and teaching it as truth is as good as collecting teachers that itch your ears.

It says worship at your feet to that Church. It is what it is and it is not controversial one bit because honour is a good thing.

Obviously honouring each other doesn't mean bowing down or in a state of worship. But honouring God certainly entails that not because the word Proskuneo is different per se but that God is God and we are not. The honour is certainly much different because God is greater than us.

[Author]

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