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Hi All,
I've started the vast list of contradictions between what the scriptures actually teach and what the Trinitarians teach. (For the purposes of this thread, “Trinitarians” includes anyone who believes Jesus is God Almighty) I invite you to help me add to the list of contradictions over time.
peace and love,
mikeScripture: God so loved the world that He GAVE His only begotten Son. (John 3:16)
Trinitarians: God so loved the world that He Himself came in the flesh as a man.Scripture: God SENT His firstborn Son into the world. (1 John 4:9)
Trinitarians: God Himself came into the world.Scripture: God remained in heaven while Jesus was on the earth. (Matthew 16:17)
Trinitarians: God was on earth in the flesh.Scripture: God offered His only begotten Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. (1 John 4:10)
Trinitarians: God offered Himself as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.Scripture: Jesus worshipped his God along with the other Jews. (John 4:22)
Trinitarians: God apparently worshipped Himself.Scripture: Jehovah our God is ONE. (Deuteronomy 6:4)
Trinitarians: Jehovah our God is THREE.Scripture: Worship Jehovah your God, and serve Him ONLY. (Matthew 4:10)
Trinitarians: Worship Jehovah AND Jesus AND Jehovah’s Holy Spirit.Scripture: Jesus is the Son OF the Most High God. (Mark 5:7)
Trinitarians: Jesus IS the Most High God.Scripture: Jesus is a Servant of God. (Acts 4:30)
Trinitarians: Jesus IS the God he serves.There are probably 150 more DIRECT contradictions between what the scriptures teach and what the Trinitarians teach. I would like to develop this thread over time, as we did with the “Pre-existent Scriptural Database” thread. As we all post more contradictions, I will continually edit this opening post to incorporate them into the list, so that we end up with one big, easy to access database.
If any “Jesus is God” people want to discuss the accuracy of any of the contradictions we list, please do so on a different thread. I want this to be more of a database than a discussion thread.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 02 2011,12:06) Scripture: God remained in heaven while Jesus was on the earth. (Matthew 6:17)
Trinitarians: God was on earth in the flesh.
Hi Mike,Matthew 6:17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd, I don't get it. But Jack brought up another one yesterday:
Scripture: No one has seen God at ANY time, but the only begotten god has explained Him.
Trinitarians: No one has seen God at any time, except for when He came to earth as a flesh and blood man and explained Himself to us.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2011,10:29) Ed, I don't get it. But Jack brought up another one yesterday: Scripture: No one has seen God at ANY time, but the only begotten god has explained Him.
Trinitarians: No one has seen God at any time, except for when He came to earth as a flesh and blood man and explained Himself to us.
Hi Mike,Ha ha ha ha, that one's funny. But seriously,
perhaps you meant a different Scripture,
other than Matthew 6:17(posted)?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgOh! Now I get your point!
It was supposed to say Matthew 16:17.
I've fixed it. Thanks for the heads-up!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 02 2011,12:06) Hi All, I've started the vast list of contradictions between what the scriptures actually teach and what the Trinitarians teach. (For the purposes of this thread, “Trinitarians” includes anyone who believes Jesus is God Almighty) I invite you to help me add to the list of contradictions over time.
peace and love,
mikeScripture: God so loved the world that He GAVE His only begotten Son. (John 3:16)
Trinitarians: God so loved the world that He Himself came in the flesh as a man.Scripture: God SENT His firstborn Son into the world. (1 John 4:9)
Trinitarians: God Himself came into the world.Scripture: God remained in heaven while Jesus was on the earth. (Matthew 16:17)
Trinitarians: God was on earth in the flesh.Scripture: God offered His only begotten Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. (1 John 4:10)
Trinitarians: God offered Himself as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.Scripture: Jesus worshipped his God along with the other Jews. (John 4:22)
Trinitarians: God apparently worshipped Himself.Scripture: Jehovah our God is ONE. (Deuteronomy 6:4)
Trinitarians: Jehovah our God is THREE.Scripture: Worship Jehovah your God, and serve Him ONLY. (Matthew 4:10)
Trinitarians: Worship Jehovah AND Jesus AND Jehovah’s Holy Spirit.Scripture: Jesus is the Son OF the Most High God. (Mark 5:7)
Trinitarians: Jesus IS the Most High God.Scripture: Jesus is a Servant of God. (Acts 4:30)
Trinitarians: Jesus IS the God he serves.There are probably 150 more DIRECT contradictions between what the scriptures teach and what the Trinitarians teach. I would like to develop this thread over time, as we did with the “Pre-existent Scriptural Database” thread. As we all post more contradictions, I will continually edit this opening post to incorporate them into the list, so that we end up with one big, easy to access database.
If any “Jesus is God” people want to discuss the accuracy of any of the contradictions we list, please do so on a different thread. I want this to be more of a database than a discussion thread.
Jesus Christ died for our sins..T's: God died for our sins
Taking that further. If as some t's say, God died for our sins then God was dead, and who raised up Jesus christ? If one third of God died and they are all co- equal and co eternal, then death is no different than life. If death is life and life is death, did anyone really die for us, then death was no sacrifice.
If on the other hand if only the body and soul part of Jesus died and the God part remained alive, then God did not die for our sins, only God's human costume died. If God did not die for our sins, then our sins have not been paid for, if God did not die , for Jesus to be God and God did not die, then no one died for our sins.
Boy, they got it all screwed up. Which one is it?
The trinity cause more problems than it solves.
JJesus Christ was tempted in all ways even as we are, but did not sin.
God does not tempt, neither can God be tempted.
Therefore JC cannot be God.
God is eternal.
JC was born.
The Father gave all authority to Jesus christ, Since the trinitarian doctrine says they are co equal, were the son and Father co equal before the Father gave all authority or afterwards. Likewise if the Father gave all (all without exception?) authority to JC then the Father no longer had any authority, for the Father gave it ALL to His son. Then how are they co equal?
God is eternal.
God died?
God is spirit John 4:24
Jesus speaking of himself in his resurrected body, A spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have. Luke 24:39
Jesus is not spirit, even in his resurrected body, he is still flesh and bones, even in his resurrected body. More powerful and versatile but still flesh and bones.
that might help a little.
b
Thanks oatmeal!
I don't agree with your last point, but I will add the others in to the main list in the OP.
You made some great (and funny) points. I'm still laughing!
Scripture (Romans 10:9):
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.Trinity:
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is God the son,” and believe in your heart that God the Father raised him from the dead, you will be saved.Scripture (Philippians 2:10-12):
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Trinity:
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is God, to the glory of the Father.Scripture (John 14:1):
Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.Trinity:
Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also I am God.Scripture (John 20:17):
Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.Trinity:
Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, `I am returning to my Father and your Father, and BTW, I am your God just as the Father is too.Thanks t8,
I didn't think this topic would take too long to build up. There's just so many to choose from.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 12 2011,13:46) Thanks t8, I didn't think this topic would take too long to build up. There's just so many to choose from.
Yeah the hardest part is choosing a few from the hundreds that are available.I don't know about that, Pierre. But it is pretty easy to pick a scripture and contrast the words of that scripture to the claims of the Trinitarians.
For example,
Scripture: “The Father is greater than me”.Trinitarians: “The Father is my equal”.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 13 2011,00:48) I don't know about that, Pierre. But it is pretty easy to pick a scripture and contrast the words of that scripture to the claims of the Trinitarians. For example,
Scripture: “The Father is greater than me”.Trinitarians: “The Father is my equal”.
TO All,Mike's appeal to Jesus' submission to the Father does not tell the whole biblical story of Jesus. Mike has been informed many times that the Father was greater than Jesus only during His state of humiliation. Before that He existed in the form of God and was therefore equal with God (Philippians 2). He took the form of a servant and became under God. He was made under Moses during that time too. Yet no one says that Christ is still under Moses.
Jesus has been exalted and is no more under the Father than He is under Moses.
Mike has also been informed many times that the Father and the Son were revealed to Israel as a father and a son according to Hebrew custom. In the Hebrew custom the firstborn son was under the father until the APPOINTED time of the father. After the son became fully investitured he took over the inheritance as the father's equal.
Mike has also been informed many times that Paul said that the Son reigns supreme until He delivers the kingdom to the Father and becomes subject to the Father. This statement makes no sense if the Son is subject to the Father now.
So the only question is this: When will the Son become subject to the Father? Many say it will happen at the end of time. Is this is true, then the exalted Son is God until the end of time and Mike had better worship the exalted Son as the angels do (Heb. 1).
Mike tells only half the truth and a half truth is a FULL LIE!
KJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 12 2011,10:43)
Mike has been informed many times that the Father was greater than Jesus only during His state of humiliation.
But isn't this the same time period that you say the Jews recognized Jesus as claiming he WAS God? You can't have it both ways, Jack. Jesus either WAS fully God on earth, or God was GREATER THAN HIM while he was on earth. Which is it? Pick one and STICK TO IT.Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 12 2011,10:43)
Mike has also been informed many times that the Father and the Son were revealed to Israel as a father and a son according to Hebrew custom. In the Hebrew custom the firstborn son was under the father until the APPOINTED time of the father. After the son became fully investitured he took over the inheritance as the father's equal.
And Jack has been informed many times that if Jesus was “EQUAL TO” God, then he couldn't possibly BE God. One cannot possibly be “equal to” themselves. Nor does one “subject himself” to his equal.Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 12 2011,10:43)
Mike has also been informed many times that Paul said that the Son reigns supreme until He delivers the kingdom to the Father and becomes subject to the Father. This statement makes no sense if the Son is subject to the Father now.
I see. Tell me how it “makes sense” for God Almighty to subject himself TO God Almighty? Oh, and you left out the part of that teaching that says, “so GOD will be all in all”. Right now, God is NOT “all in all”, because God has set His Son up as ruler over HIS (God's) creation – and Mediator between God and His creation. Just like Pharaoh set Joseph up as ruler over his empire. The one Pharaoh gave the signet ring to didn't BECOME Pharaoh himself any more than the one God gave His signet ring to BECAME God Himself.Take off the blinders, Jack.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 12 2011,10:43)
Mike had better worship the exalted Son as the angels do (Heb. 1).
If Jesus was God, the angels would have been worshipping him from the beginning. But it is only AFTER Jesus was exalted by his God, and finishes what has been willed by his God, that the angels will bow down to him to show reverence.I will also do obeisance to Jesus – and worship his God and mine.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 12 2011,10:43)
Mike tells only half the truth and a half truth is a FULL LIE!
It seems the pot is trying to call the kettle black. Only in this case, the kettle is actually golden. So the pot not only lies in the beginning, but also lies in his assertion the the kettle is lying.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 13 2011,04:26) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 12 2011,10:43)
Mike has been informed many times that the Father was greater than Jesus only during His state of humiliation.
Jesus either WAS fully God on earth, or God was GREATER THAN HIM while he was on earth. Which is it? Pick one and STICK TO IT.
What do you mean by “stick to it?” I have ALWAYS said that Christ was under God while on earth. He was also lower than the angels. Is He lower than the angels now?Please answer: Is Christ lower than the angels now?
Why is it that you ant-Ts don't like the subject of Christ's exaltation?
I said:
Quote Mike has also been informed many times that the Father and the Son were revealed to Israel as a father and a son according to Hebrew custom. In the Hebrew custom the firstborn son was under the father until the APPOINTED time of the father. After the son became fully investitured he took over the inheritance as the father's equal.
Mike replied:Quote And Jack has been informed many times that if Jesus was “EQUAL TO” God, then he couldn't possibly BE God. One cannot possibly be “equal to” themselves.
The information I gave you is from scripture. I have answered your rationalizations in the past. He existed in the form of God and was equal to God. God's “form” constituted at least two persons. Plural unity!I said:
Quote Mike has also been informed many times that Paul said that the Son reigns supreme until He delivers the kingdom to the Father and becomes subject to the Father. This statement makes no sense if the Son is subject to the Father now.
Mike replied:Quote Tell me how it “makes sense” for God Almighty to subject himself TO God Almighty?
So you do deny that Jesus reigns supreme now!It does not say that God will be subject to God. It says that the Son will be subject to the Father. You are being evasive. Please answer this point. Does it make sense to say that the Son will be subject to the Father if He is subject to the Father now?
Mike:
Quote Oh, and you left out the part of that teaching that says, “so GOD will be all in all”. Right now, God is NOT “all in all”, because God has set His Son up as ruler over HIS (God's) creation – and Mediator between God and His creation. Just like Pharaoh set Joseph up as ruler over his empire. The one Pharaoh gave the signet ring to didn't BECOME Pharaoh himself any more than the one God gave His signet ring to BECAME God Himself.
You're full of crapola! I have dealt with all these objections in the past. First, Pharoah was still over Joseph. Pharoah was still “all in all” regardless of Joseph's authority. But God is NOT all in all while Jesus is reigning.The verb “may be all in all” is subjunctive which means that it is conditional. God's becoming “all in all” is contingent upon Christ's giving up something. Did Pharoah remain all in all while Joseph had his authority? Answer plainly without your usual dance routine! I have said in the past that Pharoah and Joseph are NOT an illustration because they were not father and son to each other. Duh! The Father's becoming “all in all” is contingent upon the Son's actions.
You're talking apples and I am talking oranges. Joesph's relationship to Pharoah is INCOMPARABLE to the relationship of the Father and the Son. So much for your redactions!
Quote Take off the blinders, Jack.
It is you who is wearing the blinders if you think the relationship between Pharoah and Joseph is comparable to that of the Father and the Son of His love. Your comparison is a BLATANT DENIAL that Jesus is the beloved Son of God!You must confess that Jesus is the beloved Son of God! Joseph was not the beloved son of Pharoah.
Mike:
Quote If Jesus was God, the angels would have been worshipping him from the beginning. But it is only AFTER Jesus was exalted by his God, and finishes what has been willed by his God, that the angels will bow down to him to show reverence
What is your proof that the angels did not worship Jesus before He was made lower than them? Hebrews 2 says that He was “made” lower than the angels. The implication is clear! He was NOT lower than the angels before He became a human. Duh!Mike;
Quote I will also do obeisance to Jesus – and worship his God and mine.
You cannot even do obeisance if you do not recognize Him as the Beloved Son of God. You have reduced Jesus to the level of Joseph who was NOT a beloved son of Pharoah.Give the WHOLE story Mike which is this:
1. Jesus preexisted in the form of God and was equal with God.
2. Was made a servant and lower than God, the angels and even Moses.
3. Was exalted again and is no longer under God, the angels and Moses.
4. Will subject Himself to His own Father in order that God as the result of His action may become all in all.
5. Is the Beloved Son of God having a relationship to His Father that cannot be compared to Joseph and Pharoah.
KJ
KJ, the glorified Jesus is at the right-hand of God and by his own admission, the Father is still his God.
We also know that once Jesus has redeemed creation he gives it back to God, so that God can be in all.Up to you whether you believe Jesus own words of course.
No one can force you to.Anyway, I think this is meant to be a database of scriptures that are then compared with the Trinity Doctrine.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 13 2011,10:43) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 13 2011,00:48) I don't know about that, Pierre. But it is pretty easy to pick a scripture and contrast the words of that scripture to the claims of the Trinitarians. For example,
Scripture: “The Father is greater than me”.Trinitarians: “The Father is my equal”.
TO All,Mike's appeal to Jesus' submission to the Father does not tell the whole biblical story of Jesus. Mike has been informed many times that the Father was greater than Jesus only during His state of humiliation. Before that He existed in the form of God and was therefore equal with God (Philippians 2). He took the form of a servant and became under God. He was made under Moses during that time too. Yet no one says that Christ is still under Moses.
Jesus has been exalted and is no more under the Father than He is under Moses.
Mike has also been informed many times that the Father and the Son were revealed to Israel as a father and a son according to Hebrew custom. In the Hebrew custom the firstborn son was under the father until the APPOINTED time of the father. After the son became fully investitured he took over the inheritance as the father's equal.
Mike has also been informed many times that Paul said that the Son reigns supreme until He delivers the kingdom to the Father and becomes subject to the Father. This statement makes no sense if the Son is subject to the Father now.
So the only question is this: When will the Son become subject to the Father? Many say it will happen at the end of time. Is this is true, then the exalted Son is God until the end of time and Mike had better worship the exalted Son as the angels do (Heb. 1).
Mike tells only half the truth and a half truth is a FULL LIE!
KJ
KJQuote Mike has been informed many times that the Father was greater than Jesus only during His state of humiliation. Before that He existed in the form of God and was therefore equal with God 1Co 15:27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
1Co 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.really Jack you should read more in the scriptures
Pierre
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 12 2011,12:53)
I have ALWAYS said that Christ was under God while on earth.
If Jesus was “under God” (YOUR words), then he couldn't possibly BE God. Therefore Jesus was NOT “God on earth”, correct?Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 12 2011,12:53)
God's “form” constituted at least two persons. Plural unity!
“at least two persons”? Where was your third God at this point? Jack, in order for Jesus to be “in the form OF God”, he couldn't possibly BE the God he was “in the form OF”.Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 12 2011,12:53)
It does not say that God will be subject to God. It says that the Son will be subject to the Father.
Actually, it says that the Son will be subject to “HIM WHO PUT EVERYTHING UNDER HIM, SO THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL”. It doesn't say “Father”, Jack. It refers to Jesus being made subject to GOD.Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 12 2011,12:53)
Does it make sense to say that the Son will be subject to the Father if He is subject to the Father now?
Jack, Jesus is the SERVANT of his God. He is always subject to his God and our God, as are we all. The wording doesn't imply that Jesus isn't “subject” to his own God right now. It implies that Jesus now holds the reigns of the Kingdom at the COMMAND of his God, and later he will hand those reigns back over to his God – after his own God places his enemies at his feet so that he can subdue them.Do you remember when David placed an enemy king at the feet of his son, and told his son to behead him? This is similar. God is making His enemies kneel down before the chopping block, and letting His Son do the honor of beheading them. Once that is done, the Son will hand the sword back to his Father, to whom it belongs.
But tell me how it works in YOUR understanding. You apparently think Jesus is equal God Almighty right now, but then for some reason will become UNDER God Almighty? How does that work? Can God Almighty cease from being God Almighty?
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 12 2011,12:53)
First, Pharoah was still over Joseph.
Now you're getting it, Jack. Just as Pharaoh was still over Joseph, God is still over His Holy Servant Jesus – despite exalting and giving His Servant much power.Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 12 2011,12:53)
The Father's becoming “all in all” is contingent upon the Son's actions.
The Greek words imply that the Son will BE MADE SUBJECT to his God. They don't imply that Jesus has any choice in the matter.Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 12 2011,12:53)
Your comparison is a BLATANT DENIAL that Jesus is the beloved Son of God!
It is WE who believe Jesus is the SON OF God, Jack. It is YOU who illogically believes he is the same God he is the Son OF.Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 12 2011,12:53)
What is your proof that the angels did not worship Jesus before He was made lower than them? Hebrews 2 says that He was “made” lower than the angels. The implication is clear! He was NOT lower than the angels before He became a human. Duh!
“NOT lower” doesn't equal “HIGHER” either, Jack. But my proof is Heb 1:6,
When God again brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.”
This is proof of WHEN God's angels will do obeisance to Jesus. Also, WHOSE angels will do obeisance to him? HIS OWN angels? Or “GOD'S angels”?Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 12 2011,12:53)
Give the WHOLE story Mike which is this:1. Jesus preexisted in the form of God and was equal with God.
Scripture: Jesus preexisted in the form of God and didn't consider equality with God something to be grasped.Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 12 2011,12:53)
2. Was made a servant and lower than God, the angels and even Moses.
Scripture: God made Jesus lower than the angels, but Jesus said he was greater than Jonah and Solomon. He also implied that he was greater than Abraham, who was happy to see his day. Jesus was under the Law that God gave through Moses, but not under Moses himself. “Born under Moses” refers to being born under the Law handed down through Moses.Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 12 2011,12:53)
3. Was exalted again and is no longer under God, the angels and Moses.
Scripture: Was exalted BY his God, and set at the right hand OF his God, and is still the Holy SERVANT of his God.Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 12 2011,12:53)
4. Will subject Himself to His own Father in order that God as the result of His action may become all in all.
Scripture: Will be MADE SUBJECT to his own God so that his God and our God can be all in all.Jack, you posted scriptural truth in only one of four of your claims (lower than the angels). If you
were a quarterback completing only 25% of your passes, you'd be benched by now.Jack, how can God Almighty be made subject to God Almighty, so that God Almighty may be all in all?
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