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I always ask here where from this so called formula of “One God the Father and One Lord Jesus” obtained by these writers especially Paul the Hellenistic Jew.
One God is a theme in the Old Testament. The New Testament is a revelation that this God made Jesus both Lord and Christ. while you reject Jesus as both Lord and Christ, it is not uncommon for a king to allocate a person to high authority over his kingdom. I can think of the Pharaoh who made Joseph lord over his kingdom. But being lord did not make him higher than the Pharaoh. he was still subject to him. What would be the point of a new or a later testament if there was no new revelation? The truth is that there will always be new revelation. This is what the sons of God will be doing in eternity. New revelation and new things.
You say that many are teaching contrary things about Jesus but I ask here why they had written so many contrary things on this first century Jew and made him another god, co-person with God, co-creator, Savior of mankind, non-human Messiah without any basis so on and so forth.
When truth comes to a dark world, that world will oppose the truth in every way possible. No other book has been so misquoted in the history of the world. But the truth is evident to people who love truth. If you do not love the truth, you will be swept away in a lie. Which lies? The ones that appeal to you the most.
These confusing things created so much havoc and disharmony in the history of Christianity.
Disharmony if you are of the world. The path to God is narrow. The path to destruction is wide. That is because there is one truth and an almost infinite amount of lies that you can choose from.
Hi Gene,
You; Jesus never acted in the capacity of a Creator God at all never did he ever mention a prexisting life he had,
he only mentioned a preordained Glory, and other aspects of his life, which related to the prophecies regarding him, that is all I have ever got from our text.
Gene, PRODUCE CLEAR SCRIPTURES PLEASE!
NOT YOUR OWN CARNAL-MINDED BELIEF!
WITH EVERY RESPECT!
NOW READ:
John18:36 Jesus answered,
MY KINGDOM is not of this world:
Gene, IN THE ABOVE JESUS, INDIRECTLY CONFIRMED THAT HE IS GOD!
CARRY ON READING:
if MY KINGDOM were of this world,
then would MY SERVANTS FIGHT,
IN THE ABOVE, JESUS ALSO CONFIRMED THAT
HE HAS SERVANTS, OBVIOUS Gene,
SERVANTS NOT OF THIS WORLD AS WELL,
WHAT KIND OF SERVANTS DOES JESUS, THE SERVANT HAS THEN?
that I should not be delivered to the Jews:
but now is MY KINGDOM not from hence.
37Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause CAME I INTO the world, that I should bear witness unto THE TRUTH.(GOD)
Everyone that is of THE TRUTH (GOD)heareth my voice
John 14:6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and THE TRUTH (GOD), and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.
John 3:32 HE that cometh from ABOVE, IS ABOVE ALL
JESUS IN THE ABOVE CONFIRMED HIS PRE-EXISTENCE!
ALSO Gene, WHO CAME FROM ABOVE AND IS ABOVE ALL!
GOD AS MAN IN JESUS, and JESUS AS GOD ON EARTH!
Confirmed also by the SUPPOSED scripture you yourself produced:
You: Jesus even related to it, when he said
the servant is not above his master,
JESUS WHILE ON EARTH WAS NOT ABOVE GOD, BUT EQUAL! READ:
John5:18 Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath, but also said God was his Father,
making himself equal to God.
Read again please:
You: but that it was enough that
the Servant be
AS HIS MASTER.
John 3:32…….He that is of the earth, of the earth he is, and of the earth he speaketh.
He that cometh from HEAVEN IS ABOVE ALL.
AGAIN JESUS PRE-EXISTED, Gene, WHO CAME FROM HEAVEN AND
IS ABOVE ALL?
32And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth:
and no man receiveth his testimony.
33He that hath received his testimony,
hath set to his seal that GOD IS TRUE.
34For he whom God hath sent,…. PERFECT TENSE Gene, an action commenced/COMPLETED in the past and continued onto the future,
JESUS PRE-EXISTENCE!
MORE TO COME IN THE NEXT POST! in the meantime:
Chew the truth Gene!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
CARMEL……He who Pharoah sent (Joseph ), was above all, in the land of Egypt, too, he acted as the (agent) of the (principle ) Pharoah. He never was the Pharoah himself. The same thing applies to Jesus our brother in the Anointed of God the Father.
We to are called to be (agents) of the, (MOST HIGH) , exactly like our brother Jesus , the first born of (MANY). In fact Jesus even gave us his power , commision, and authority, to act as (agents) of the (principle), God the Father also. He even told us we could do (greater) works then he did,
But the real question is Carmel, as I told LU , Do you (really believe) , what Jesus Christ, himself told us?, that’s the question here.
When you keep asking me for scriptures on every little thing I say, only tell me how much you really don’t know, about Scriptures , nor what Jesus himself said. I can also produce the scriptures on what I said in the above paragraph, as I have produced many scriptures in the past, exactly as they are written , without changing the wordings and meanings as you constantly do.
But for argument sake,
John 14:12….“verly, verly I say unto you, He that believe on me, the works that I do shall he do; and (Greater) works then these shall he do; because I go unto my My Father.
So there you Go Carmel , see it is in our scriptures after all. You say scripture please , so there you go, now the question is , do you really believe Jesus, and what he says or not ?
Peace and love to you and yours Carmel…………gene
Disharmony if you are of the world. The path to God is narrow. The path to destruction is wide. That is because there is one truth and an almost infinite amount of lies that you can choose from.
Hi Proclaimer, thanks for your detailed reply to my post. So you claim that disharmony is due to worldliness? Then who is of the world? Mike who claims Jesus as another god of many in the Bible or Sis Kathi who claims Jesus as Co-Yahweh or Carmel who claims Jesus as God-man or Gene who claims Jesus as pure human or yourself who claim Jesus as non-human and preexisting his birth? You think all these people are going to destruction? Then who is left out dear?
Gene: This also can show that the earth did preexist as a inhabitable planet before and was destoryed and God began remaking it again, to what it is today.
Gene, in Exodus 20:11 and 31:17, Yahweh includes the CREATION of heaven and earth WITHIN the six days of creation.
Your argument has been debunked. Please don’t bring it up to me again. Thanks.
Mike: We actually do know. It was WITHIN the six days of creation – which occurred about 6000 years ago.
Proclaimer: Who is we? The Flat Earth community?
The “we” is people who believe the Bible and hold it as our ultimate authority. You are not part of the “we”.
Proclaimer: Berean, there is not enough in the text to state what you said as a fact. And I think gene is saying that the text can support his view.
Everything Berean stated is UNEQUIVOCALLY supported by the Biblical text. What Gene is suggesting is unequivocally CONTRADICTED by the Biblical text.
In Ex 20:11 and 31:17, Yahweh Himself includes the very CREATION of heaven and earth WITHIN the six days of creation.
There is not an already existing heaven and earth AND THEN the six days of creation. The very CREATION of those two things are INCLUDED WITHIN the same six days.
Proclaimer: So your explanation is simply that God created trees and plants and they sprouted fruit and seeds all within the same 24 hour period. Lol. Outside of any personal miracle, this has not been observed in nature ever. Sounds like flat young earth scientism to me. I don’t think you are convincing anyone with that argument.
My explanation (which you never addressed) included SCRIPTURE, Proclaimer…
Jonah 4:6-10… Then Yahweh provided a leafy plant and made it grow up over Jonah to give shade for his head to ease his discomfort, and Jonah was very happy about the plant….
But Yahweh said, “You have been concerned about this plant, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight.”
So we know from SCRIPTURE that God can cause a fully grown plant to come into existence “overnight”. The question I asked you (which you didn’t answer) is WHAT IS GOD’S LIMIT?
Please tell us, Proclaimer, the LIMIT of the number of fully grown trees God can produce in a single day. Is Yahweh only powerful enough to create the one tree that He made for Jonah? How about two trees in a day, Proclaimer? Is that too much for God? How about 10 trees? Would 10 trees sap all of God’s strength so that He couldn’t do 11?
Can God create 100 fully grown trees in a single day? A thousand? A million?
Proclaimer, please enlighten us on the exact number of fully grown trees God can produce in a single day before He is sapped of all strength and cannot create any more.
Adam: Yes there was nothing happened prior to this so called creation event as per the 1st story of the creation in Genesis 1. This was also confirmed by the earliest interpreters of this story…
Adam speaking sensibly and according to the Bible.
Adam: So this God was tired and needed rest so that he had to fix Seventh Day for refreshing.
Adam speaking irrationally and with a blatant misinterpretation of the Bible.
Carmel: Whether you answer or not it’s your pigeon! EXPLAIN WHY JESUS WAS SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD!
You are using a very nonsensical mistranslation of the verse. I’ll let the 25 translators of the NET Bible explain it to you…
Revelation 13:8 NET ©
and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.Footnote: The prepositional phrase “since the foundation of the world” is traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding phrase in the Greek text, “the Lamb who was killed”, but it is more likely that the phrase “since the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written” (as translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8 where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of the world” occurs with no ambiguity.
Now go read Rev 17:8 which contains the same phrase, and let us know if you can refute what these scholars have just taught you about your poor mistranslation.
Carmel, in Ex 20:11 and 31:17, Yahweh Himself includes the very CREATION of heaven and earth WITHIN the six days of creation. The Bible leaves NO room for Gen 1 to be talking about a heaven and earth that are different from the ones that were created within the six day period that ended with the creation of Adam and Eve.
Your argument has never had any merit, and is thoroughly debunked by Yahweh Himself. End of story.
Gene: There is evidence both from scripture and science that supports this earth is way older then just 6000 years.
No there isn’t. There is nothing in scripture or in science that suggest an earth older than from Adam and Eve until today.
Proclaimer: What I think you are really saying:
As far as I’m concerned, I don’t care about science until it goes along with my interpretation which is the stance that the SDA takes regarding this passage in THE WORD OF GOD.
What does SDA have to do with it? When you argue that Jesus is the Son of God and not God Himself, has anyone ever said to you, “You must be one of those Jehovah Witness lunatics!” ? A lot of people have said that to me. But the point is, would asking us about being JWs do ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to address the SCRIPTURAL ARGUMENTS that we make for Jesus being the Son of God and not God Himself? Of course not. And I’m sure you would be able to understand that the ONLY reason for linking you to the JWs is to make a false equivalency: JWs are bad, therefore your arguments are bad. I’m sure you’d also agree that this is a MORONIC argument for someone to make.
Now, apply that to you bringing up the SDA with Berean – as if identifying him as SDA somehow refutes the scriptural things he was teaching you.
I’m not JW or SDA – but I know that Berean is speaking scripturally on this particular subject. Try to refute the scriptural merit of what he is saying, Proclaimer… and keep the SDA or the JWs or whoever else out of it since none of that affects the arguments he’s making.
Proclaimer: So you admit that you are unscientific.
This is another example of the same MORONIC argument as above. When you RUN AWAY AND HIDE from the scriptural arguments we make by saying, “You’re SDA”, or “You’re not scientific”, or “Adam only agrees with Mike because he doesn’t believe the NT”, you make YOURSELF look like a moron who can’t scripturally defend himself, and so must attempt to DIVERT attention away from your own weakness with this silly nonsense.
I challenge you to defend your scriptural arguments LIKE A MAN from now on, Proclaimer. Be respectable. Be honest. DIRECTLY address the points being made against you, and present your SCRIPTURAL support when addressing them.
You debate like a petulant little child. Time for you to man up.
..Mike……We’re not talking about other places in scriptures, we are talking about the language used in Gen 1v1&2, non of that even has the words, “he created THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH on the (FIRST DAY) in it”, that is something you have added to that text. Even the text you quoted in Exodus dosen’t say he created the “heavens” and earth in the first day, it dosen’t even talk about the (heavens) “in a plural sense, but talks about this heaven that now exists, on this now existing earth’. This earth could have had many renewals in the past ages, and will also have one in the future age , according to scriptures.
There exists more then (one) heaven, Mike, scripture speaks as having other heavens, this heaven on this present earth is just one of many heavens. So God may have renewed this earth and heavens many times and could have been talking about this last creation, not the ones before this one.
Paul tells us that there are Torestial bodies, and there are Celestial bodies. Earthly bodies, and heavenly bodies , they all very in glory. There is a glory of the Sun, and a Glory of the moon and so on and on it goes. We know it was God that created it all, by himself, and alone, just as it says in Isaiah. But it no where says he created it all in just seven days, that only describes this earth we presently live on, but that does not limit him creating everything else millions of years before this present earth was created.
Do you really think God existed from eternity without heavens and universes to dwell in ? Or just until this seven day period ? I really doubt it.
The language of the text in Gen 1:172, does lend itsef to a past existence, Mike.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene
Proclaimer: God will renew the earth with fire next. So ask yourself how God will make a new heavens and new earth because you obviously have to hold that God will actually delete the current heavens and earth and rebuild a new one from scratch. If so, then to be consistent with your teaching, you are forced to also believe that you will not exist at some point in the future.
First of all, your argument is a non sequitur. Secondly, the Bible clearly says there will be a new heaven and a new earth, and even that God will roll the current heaven up like a garment. So I believe that there WILL be a completely new heaven and earth.
It’s funny though, because I had ONE study with a JW once, and this subject got brought up. He was insisting that the heaven and earth will be “renewed” like you just did above. And his reasoning was that God simply doesn’t “need to” create an entirely new heaven and earth. But scripture says it will be a new heaven and a new earth, right? (2 Peter 3:13, Isaiah 65:17, 66:22) And Jesus even says heaven and earth will pass away, right? (Matt 24:35, Luke 21:33)
Anyway, I and the JW went round and round on it, and needless to say, thus ended my first and only Bible study with a JW. But Proclaimer, since YOU understand it the way the JWs do, what if I said this to you…
Question for you, Proclaimer, or for your JW elders: Do you agree with the following statement?
Do you see how utterly LAME that is? Because now you and I are not respectably debating whether the next heaven and earth will be brand new or just “refurbished”. Instead, I have (in my mind) already DEFEATED your argument simply by saying it is a JW argument. Stupid, right? Yet that’s EXACTLY what you just did to Berean…
Proclaimer: Question for you Berean or for your SDA elders.
Do you agree with the following statement? Yes or No.If you become a new creation, then you cease to exist, and a new version of you is created to replace you.
So yeah… stop doing stupid crap like that, okay? If you have a question for Berean, then just ask Berean. Your petty little insinuations that Berean can’t think for himself and must review the official SDA answer belittles yourself, not him, because the rest of us can see your behavior as the childish antics of a pathetic loser. Do better in the future.
Like I said above, your argument is a non sequitur, since it doesn’t logically follow that if one thing was literal, it therefore means the other thing (or ALL things) must also be literal. You make these silly non sequiturs all the time, like when you say, “Well if the days in Gen 1 are literal, then the sword in Jesus’ mouth must also be literal!” No… one doesn’t logically follow the other. Just because one thing is metaphorical in scripture doesn’t mean all things are. And just because one thing is literal in scripture doesn’t mean all things are.
Your non sequitur arguments make YOU look confused and ignorant. Please do better in the future.
As for your questions (one of which has nothing to do with the other), I believe the future heaven and earth will be brand new creations. (Rev 21:1) I also believe that if God creates a “new Mike”, the “old Mike” will no longer exist. Yes, God will have “replaced” the “old Mike” with a new, better version. (2 Cor 5:17, John 3:3)
Notice that I’ve included a bunch of scriptures to support my understanding. If you’d like to debate my understanding, then please do so scripturally… as opposed to with non sequiturs and condescending ad hominem attacks.
Berean: I am not against TRUE SCIENCE, GOD’S SCIENCE. TO ME, THE SCIENCE BEHIND THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION IS A FALSE SCIENCE.
That whole post was great, Berean. But please let me elaborate on your statement above… there simply is no science behind the so-called “Theory of Evolution”.
Common descent evolution is the epitome of Scientism. There is ZERO scientific data that would even come close to suggesting such a silly idea – which isn’t a “scientific THEORY” at all – because it is not observable, testable, or repeatable.
Cheers.
Carmel: The above scriptures Mike, determine The heaven and the earth of Genesis 1:1 originally created perfect, and also, at a certain moment in time there was a rebellion and nations were destroyed!
No they don’t. You INTERPRET them that way, but they absolutely, positively do NOT “determine” what you say they do.
LU: The book of John claims that Jesus was _______…
A god who was with THE God in the beginning.
LU: The book of Hebrews claims that Jesus was _______…
A god whose own God set him above his peers.
Adam: This is the reason why I always argue with Mike, Proclaimer and Gene on Jesus who was declared as Co-person with God in all activities starting from the first creation and ending with new creation mainly based on the NT.
Nonsense. The NT doesn’t teach any such “Co-person”, but instead an obedient servant and prophet of Yahweh named Jesus.
Proclaimer: He is the son of God, the messiah, and lord of God’s creation.
You must be a member of the Satanic cult of the Jehovah’s Witnesses! Therefore I win this and any future scriptural debates!
See how utterly stupid those kinds of statements are, Proclaimer? Did my statement actually REFUTE anything you said? Nope. It was nothing but utter stupidity.
Try not to do that kind of stupid stuff anymore, okay? Thanks.
Berean: The Son is the reflection of the glory of the Father, the very imprint of HIS PERSON.
WHICH MEANS AMONG OTHER THINGS THAT HE SHARES THE ATTRIBUTES OF HIS FATHER:OMNIPOTENCE
OMNISCIENCE
OMNIPRESENCE….We already know from Jesus that he isn’t omnipotent, since he tells us that he can do nothing without his own God.
And we know he isn’t omniscient, since he tells that that he doesn’t know the day and hour of his own return, and that only his own God knows that.
As for omnipresent, there isn’t a scripture that says God is omnipresent – let alone His servant Jesus.
Berean, scripture (and the direct words of Jesus himself) refute your argument.
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