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Oh, and don’t forget that “science” doesn’t “say” anything at all. So your statement about “science saying otherwise” is made out of ignorance – as I’ve recently taught you.
You do not understand science. We can see the heavens with telescopes. We image the globe everyday with satellites. We have geologists that can analyse rocks. This is science. What you are doing is the opposite. And science questions itself. Whereas, you have dodgy dogma only. And you ignore the most blatant evidence which we will be going through in the debate.
Hi Mike,
You: This whole mind-numbing experience started when you claimed that the heaven and earth of Gen 1:3 and beyond
were not the ORIGINAL heaven and earth.
Me: Just read your deviation in the above:
I NEVER SAID THAT PLAIN CONFUSION!
GOD ETERNAL, INITIATED ONCE HIS CREATION AND IT CONTINUES FOREVER NO MATTER WHAT!
FROM HIS SIDE POINT OF VIEW!
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”
Mike, When that was, we don’t know. Billions, trillions of years ago, we don’t know.
Now in Genesis 1:2 ONLY THE ORIGINAL EARTH IS MENTIONED, READ:
“And the earth was without form and void,….”
It is clearly a condition totally different from the first verse.
Not a word about the ORIGINAL heaven being without form, and void;
the ORIGINAL earth alone was so. Mike OK?
So THERE’S A CLEAR POSSIBILITY that the earth that was ORIGINALLY created by God as being destroyed by God’s PREDETERMINED PLAN of a rebellion that preceded THIS KIND OF man’s existence upon
THIS KIND OF planet.
NOT GOD’S PLANET IN A WAY!
Peace and lo in Jesus Christ
Okay, so your answer is that God made all the plants and after that, they bore fruit and produced seeds all within in a 24 hour period, despite the text making no such claim. Thank you for being honest. Clearly, you forced yourself into this to support your narrative. People can now see how unscientific you are and how unscriptural you are being too. Because scriptures says the following and it is obvious when you understand these truths that you cannot claim that all this took place in 24 hours.
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years…
You seemed to have conveniently forgotten this. And
God said, ‘Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And it was so. The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning – the third day.’
So God created the plants, then the plants produced seeds and fruit with seeds.
You have been debunked by scripture and science once again.
Silly that you have to jump to these wild conclusions because you come across as a fool and you put the bible into disrepute. Of course, for us who know scripture, we can see your schemes and faulty thought processes. But to a person searching for God, your words might just be the stumbling block that blocks him from the truth. Nothing you do is without consequence. But you and only you will give an account just as I will regarding my words and teaching.
For example, God didn’t make heaven until the second day.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.See how the first day ends when all that has already taken place?
Mike: Oh, and don’t forget that “science” doesn’t “say” anything at all. So your statement about “science saying otherwise” is made out of ignorance – as I’ve recently taught you.
Proclaimer: You do not understand science…
No… YOU don’t understand science. If you did, you’d understand that science is an INVESTIGATION… the PURSUIT of knowledge (your own words by the way), and that a PURSUIT of knowledge can’t SAY anything one way or another about the data the PURSUIT uncovers.
Proclaimer: We can see the heavens with telescopes.
Yep. We can surely stand on the solid and unmoving earth and look up at all the lights in the sky – with or without special equipment. Science is the ACT of looking up into the sky and COLLECTING data about those lights. But science can’t SAY anything about them. It is flawed human beings who then INTERPRET the scientific data and SAY things about it. Science is silent on the matter.
Proclaimer: And you ignore the most blatant evidence which we will be going through in the debate.
Fantastic! Make sure to keep including the scriptures that this “blatant evidence” concerns, so we can compare what the Bible says against what Scientism says.
Proclaimer: Okay, so your answer is that God made all the plants and after that, they bore fruit and produced seeds all within in a 24 hour period, despite the text making no such claim.
If you are going to copy things from the private thread and bring them here to discuss, great! I want everyone to see you get exposed. In fact, there wouldn’t even be a private thread if you would have just responded to my posts in a manner befitting a respectable adult discussion among peers.
But if you are going to make that your habit, at least be decent enough to include my arguments so the people here can see both sides of the story, okay?
For example, your question implied that God is too small to create a world full of plants in a 24 hour period. So I first pointed you to Jonah 4, where we have another scriptural example of God creating a full grown tree out of nothing overnight to shade Jonah.
Will you really argue that God can produce ONE plant in a 24 hour period, but not two of them? How about three? A hundred of them? A thousand? A million? At which number to YOU personally draw the line at God’s power, Proclaimer? Exactly how many plants can He make in a 24 hour period before His power fails Him and He cannot create any more?
I also pointed out in the private thread that your argument that God couldn’t make a world full of plants in a 24 hour period actually hurts YOU… because YOU are the one saying there were no day/night cycles before the sun, and that the sun wasn’t allowed to shine through to the earth until day 4. So what you’re really suggesting here is not only that God is powerless, but that because it takes God so long to produce mature fruit-bearing plants, those poor plants had to develop over thousands or millions of years of COMPLETE DARKNESS – since the sun didn’t shine on the earth until the NEXT “long epoch of time”.
So I successfully debunked your entire argument very easily, and I’m happy you posted it in this public thread for everyone. Just make sure that next time you don’t only post YOUR drivel, but also include my solid arguments that debunked your drivel before it began. Thanks.
Proclaimer: See how the first day ends when all that has already taken place?
I already addressed your misunderstanding in this very thread about an hour ago. I also addressed it in the private thread. Quote how I addressed it, and THEN make an argument. It’s not a “discussion” if you just keep posting the same drivel as if other people haven’t already responded to and refuted it.
Proclaimer, does Gen 1 clearly say that God MADE heaven on day 2 or not? And since it does, would it make sense for God to tell Moses that He created heaven on day 1, and THEN created heaven on day 2?
You are misunderstanding the meaning of Gen 1:1. I explained your misunderstanding in great detail in the private thread. Go and actually READ some of the stuff you called “static”. That way you can educate yourself and I won’t have to keep correcting you on the same misunderstandings over and over. Thanks.
Carmel: Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”
Mike, When that was, we don’t know. Billions, trillions of years ago, we don’t know.
We actually do know. It was WITHIN the six days of creation – which occurred about 6000 years ago.
Carmel: Now in Genesis 1:2 ONLY THE ORIGINAL EARTH IS MENTIONED, READ:
“And the earth was without form and void,….”
It is clearly a condition totally different from the first verse.
Not a word about the ORIGINAL heaven being without form, and void…
No, it is not a condition “totally different” from the first verse – and there is not a single thing in Gen 1 to make you draw such a conclusion. And heaven wasn’t created until day 2, Carmel.
Carmel: So THERE’S A CLEAR POSSIBILITY that the earth that was ORIGINALLY created by God as being destroyed by God’s PREDETERMINED PLAN of a rebellion that preceded THIS KIND OF man’s existence upon THIS KIND OF planet.
There is nothing in the scriptures to indicate any such thing. Perhaps you’d entertain the much more plausible and scripturally supported possibility that Gen 1:1 is a preliminary opening statement that prepares the reader for the event they are about to read about… and Gen 2:1-3 is the summary statement that follows the step-by-step creation they had just read about.
Understand? Like this…
Gen 1:1… In the beginning, God created the heaven and earth…
On day 1 He did A.
On day 2 He did B.
On day 3 He did C.
On day 4 He did D.
On day 5 He did E.
And on day 6 He did F.
And then the account which began with an opening statement, ends with this summary statement…
Genesis 2:1-3… Thus the heaven and the earth were completed in all their vast array. And by the seventh day God had finished the work He had been doing; so on that day He rested from all His work. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on that day He rested from all the work of creation that He had accomplished.
Okay, short on time right now, but thank you very much for making a manageable post that I could address. Keep them like that, and we can discuss anything you want to.
Mike…….scripture does seem to indicate the earth “BECAME” void.
GEN 1v2…..And the earth (was) without (form), and (void) ; and darkness was on the face of the deap.
Hebrew words for (was) and (form) and (void)
(Was)…. a primitive root, to exist, that is (be “OR” “BECOME”, as in CAME TO PASS .
(Form)….a unused root meaning to (lie waste; a desolation (of surface), that is, desert; figuratively a worthless thing.
(Void)…….from a unused root (meaning to be empty; a vaculity, that is (superfically) an undistinguisable ruin: – emptiness, void.
All of this wordings can indicate, that is what the earth “BECAME OR CAME TO BE” , which also shows the earth was not that way before it “CAME TO BE” that way.
This also can show that the earth did preexist as a inhabitable planet before and was destoryed and God began remaking it again, to what it is today. .
Mike the wording of Gen 1 and 2, both supports this idea brother.
Will check out what Jeff Banner thinks from his mechanical translation of Genesis book.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene
Gene, Mike has fallen into the trap of fighting for a narrative despite the evidence. This sort of behaviour forces people to ignore good arguments and evidence. In effect, they make themselves blind because their ability to reason becomes impaired through a form of self harm.
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD…
We actually do know. It was WITHIN the six days of creation – which occurred about 6000 years ago.
Who is we? The Flat Earth community?
If you are going to copy things from the private thread and bring them here to discuss, great! I want everyone to see you get exposed. In fact, there wouldn’t even be a private thread if you would have just responded to my posts in a manner befitting a respectable adult discussion among peers.
Keep pushing the narrative Mike. In reality, you are just not that important for me to spend the rest of my life answering your million questions. Lol. I eventually answer questions that I do read. But about the private thread. I am very happy you set that up because it is one question at a time. I can fit that into my life easily enough. There is a question awaiting your answer over there too.
Private thread for Mike and Proclaimer only: “The Bible vs Scientism”
Gene
God does not say that He restored a destroyed earth which needed restoration but that He created from scratch the earth which did not exist before. What you are suggesting is totally wrong. It is our present earth that needs to be purified by fire and recreated, and we know that God is going to do this especially by Peter, John and Isaiah 2Peter 3:7; Revelation 20;21; Isaiah 65:17; 66:22)
Berean, there is not enough in the text to state what you said as a fact. And I think gene is saying that the text can support his view. Let’s not get all dogmatic about it. Just look at the possibilities that the scriptures allow and do not let personal bias toward a doctrine get in the way.
God created the heavens and earth and the earth was formless and void. It says nothing about the time between creation of the earth and then this formless state. It could be that the earth was brand new, but it could also mean that the earth was renewed. The latter supports science and also potentially the bible itself. Because we are told the earth will renew once again after the Millennium. Does that mean a whole new planet, or a renewed planet. Ask yourself that first.
Behold I make all things new…
Proclaimer: See how the first day ends when all that has already taken place?
Mike: I already addressed your misunderstanding in this very thread about an hour ago. I also addressed it in the private thread. Quote how I addressed it, and THEN make an argument. It’s not a “discussion” if you just keep posting the same drivel as if other people haven’t already responded to and refuted it.
So your explanation is simply that God created trees and plants and they sprouted fruit and seeds all within the same 24 hour period. Lol. Outside of any personal miracle, this has not been observed in nature ever. Sounds like flat young earth scientism to me. I don’t think you are convincing anyone with that argument.
There is nothing in the scriptures to indicate any such thing. Perhaps you’d entertain the much more plausible and scripturally supported possibility that Gen 1:1 is a preliminary opening statement that prepares the reader for the event they are about to read about… and Gen 2:1-3 is the summary statement that follows the step-by-step creation they had just read about.
Yes there was nothing happened prior to this so called creation event as per the 1st story of the creation in Genesis 1. This was also confirmed by the earliest interpreters of this story as per Exodus 20:11
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it.
And as per Exodus 31:17
17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.”
So this God was tired and needed rest so that he had to fix Seventh Day for refreshing.
The confusing statements by those NT writers (2 Peter 3:5-7 here) were developed and evolved much later after so many centuries in the history of religion.
1 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it.
The word sea gives it away however. Because it mentions that, it is simply talking about land, sea, and sky. It is from the point of view of where we dwell. Not from outside the universe looking in as many seem to think is the context.
Cosmogony in the Hebrew Bible (A Christian version)
The cosmos God created was familiar to Ancient Semitic cosmology, sharing the world view of the firmament. The firmament is like an inverted bowl, set up in a bowl-like saucer, with the waters surrounding it. There is water above the firmament as well as Sheol (the dwelling place of the dead)
below the “saucer”. On the inside of the top bowl one finds floodgates to let in rainfall. The heavenly bodies – sun, moon and stars are all “pasted” on the inside of the bowl. This was the general worldview of the people at the time.According to the narrator, God’s eight-fold creation was done in this fashion:
Day 1: Creation of light by separating it from darkness; light was given superiority over darkness.
Day 2: Creation of the firmament and the separation of the waters above from the waters below.
Day 3: Separating land from the waters below, and whilst preparing the land, God created vegetation for the land.
Day 4: Creating the heavenly bodies (sun, moon, stars, etc.) One may wonder why this wasn’t done on the first day, as a supplementary task similar to that of day 3, when land was separated from water and
vegetation was added. Could this be because the other cultures worshipped the sun, moon and stars as deities, and that the narrator deliberately relegated the ‘value’ of these lights to a secondary task by
their own Yahweh?Day 5: Creation of water animals and of birds.
Day 6: Creation of land animals and finally, the creation of human beings. It should be noted that on days three and six the process interestingly involved two creations. On day three the waters were separated from the land and vegetation covered the earth, whilst on day six land animals were created and then man was also created in God’s own image.
Day 7: The Sabbath. Here is in fact another creative creation of God. God creates Time. Time to rest and time to praise…The seventh day can be said to prove that all has been done: it is functioning, it is able, and creation is at peace.
When parallels to Genesis 1 became known to theologians, almost everyone regarded these as a threat to the biblical story of creation. According to Westermann (1984:19-20) the theologians sought to articulate the inimitable character and the religious superiority of the biblical rendition. This reticent way of thinking is still expressed in modern times by many evangelical, Jewish and Catholic interpreters. Westermann challenges this attitude by asking whether the agreement between the biblical and extrabiblical accounts can contribute to a better understanding to biblical texts. (Westermann 1984:20). He continues:
Before making any judgment on the content of the stories, it must be pointed out that what the Bible says about the creator and the creation in Genesis 1-3…is related to what is said about
the creator and the creation not only in the neighbouring religions, but in most religions of the world anywhere and at any time. Only then can we discuss the question of the difference between the biblical and non-biblical accounts. (Westermann 1984:20)Genesis 1 says that God alone is, and he creates out of nothing, from emptiness. In Genesis 1 we clearly note that creation forms the central theme of the narrative; whilst compared to the Enuma Elish, the main theme is the great battle for supremacy with the theme of creation taking a somewhat incidental place. The Babylonian myth of the Enuma Elish provides a marked deviation from the gracious creation of an incomparable God, in that there was a time before the world came into being during which there pre-existed a watery chaos. Their creation starts from this chaos from which the gods originated, as they were conceived through the coming together of the sweet water and the primeval waters.
Von Rad (1972:65) rejects the possibility of struggle between the cosmic primordial principle in Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 by stating that hostility towards God cannot be traced, and that chaos has no power on its own, as it cannot exist for itself alone, but that chaos exists for faith only where God’s creative will is superior to it. Von Rad addresses the issue in verses 1 and 2, by stating that unless one speaks of chaos, one cannot deliberately think of creation at all. He adds:
It is correct to say that the verb bārā’, ‘create’, contains the idea both of complete effortlessness and creatio ex nihilo since it is never connected with any statement of material. The hidden grandeur of this statement is that God is the Lord of the World, but not only in the sense that he subjected a pre-existing chaos to his ordering will! It is amazing to see how little Israel demarcated herself from an apparently overpowering environment of cosmological and theogonic myths. (Von Rad 1972:48)
How could it have happened that myths foreign to Israel found their way into the creation narrative of Genesis?
Pettazzoni (1954:24-28) provides a valuable insight into the change in the interpretation and appreciation of the creation myth in Genesis 1. He states it in this manner: “…the proper worth of myth consists in the necessary and sufficient justification which it gives to whatever is most essential to human life and to society, by relating it to a primordial act of foundation recorded by the myth.” On the creation of humankind he argues that: “…the existence of humanity depends in some sort on the myth which tells of the appearance of the first person on earth, for the recital of that myth has the power to establish and ensure continuity of human life”.
He concludes by referring to the myth of the creation of the world: “…the recital of the myth of the origin of the world makes real and guarantees the stability and duration of the universe”. Pettazzoni believes that the here and now is important to what is said about the creation:
…whether the world was created by the will of God, or formed, by gradual accretions, from a seed or a speck of mud brought from the bottom of the sea, or by the cosmic growth of the different bodily parts of a gigantic primeval being, is all no more than secondary importance in principle. What is of the greatest importance is that there should be a myth of beginnings, which may or may not be a myth of creation, but which cannot possibly be done without, for on this myth, be it what it may, the very existence of the universe and of humanity depend in any case. (Pettazzoni 1954:28)
Westermann (1984:22-24) mentions two basic types of creation, namely Creation of the Whole (the world and humankind), and Creation of the One. The creation of the whole is prevalent in Genesis 1, whilst creation of the one occurs mostly in Ancient Near East epics. Individual myths lie behind the Enuma Elish as well as Sumerian mythology where the creation of the world and the creation of humanity are told separately. In the Sumerian myths it is noted that the creation of humans takes place before the creation of the world. According to Westermann (1984:24) this also holds true for the Enuma Elish, and that only in a later stage are the creation of the world and the creation of humankind drawn closer to constitute the creation of the whole.
In contrast are the Egyptian cosmogonies where creation is virtually exclusively focused on the creation of the world, and rarely is there a reference to the creation of human beings. ”The most remarkable omission from this cosmogonic pattern is the creation of mankind…”, and Brandon (1963:56) further believes that the reason for this situation lies in the priestly circles that find no interest in the creation of humanity, but rather more so in the creation of the kings, which are godly representatives.
It is interesting that Westermann (1984:25) mentions that all of Israel’s neighbours spoke of a personal creator-god when reciting the creation of the world and people. There was a personal relationship with the creatorgod thousands of years before the beginning of Israel’s history, and it is no innovation when Israel upheld God as the creator who created all and who is to be worshipped. The major difference lies in the fact that Israel’s God was not created himself and that he therefore stands outside the creation. To be created is not to be god.
God creates in absolute quietude, without the presence of violence or conflict as found in other creation myths. Most creation stories revert to bloody violence between the gods. This may allude to the fact that God is indeed the only God, and that in the creation epics and myths there generally existed a number of gods vying for supremacy.
The thematic content of the story of creation is about power and control without conflict. God has the power to speak and creation follows: it actually flows from his lips as words are spoken. It portrays God as being in absolute control, not even contemplating that anything could possibly go wrong. God is a God of order – from chaos He creates more than order, he creates beauty. God is familiar with beauty when He says: “This is good”.
There is a profound composure in Gen. 1 that is missing in the Babylonian rendition of creation, as well as in the other creation myths. Gen. 1 consists of a schematic presentation in which the acts of creation are condensed into six days, with eight creative acts completed simply by the words God uttered: “And God said…”, asserting the fact that God made everything that constitutes this universe in which we live. Comparing this serenity of creation beginnings with some of the other creation epics and myths, one finds interesting parallels. Gunkel in (Westermann 1984:104) states that the belief that the world came into being out of darkness is also found in the Babylonian, Egyptian, Phoenician and the Greek renditions of creation. This indicates that human beings generally contrasted light with darkness. The same incidence may be noted in the correlation of the primeval waters and darkness, as described in verse 2.
The Egyptian, Phoenician and even the Sumerian cosmologies all seem to present the same situation before creation. The god Ptah exercised authority and, by thought, commanded through the utterance of words that creation take place. This can be related to the cosmogony of Genesis 1 where God speaks and it is as if there is a link with the New Testament: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” (John 1:1)……..(taken from a booklet, Reading the creation narrative in Genesis 1-2:4a against its ancient near eastern background)
Look at the creation event as seen from the surface of earth. Coincidently or not, everything fits with the scientific order.
If you look at it from outside the universe which is what many do, it doesn’t align with science IMO.
I favor the first option myself because the Bible is a book for man to learn, not for God to learn.
Mike,
You: I will, however, leave you with this advice: If you truly want to make a case that you said A, and I accused you of saying B instead, then do it ONE QUOTE AT A TIME. For example…
Here is my exact quote…………………………
Here is what you said I said………………………….
And then just leave it at that until I have time to respond. Because there’s no way on earth I’m going to RE-READ long, boring and confusing novels that I only skimmed in the first place. Cheers
Me: Mike, I am not interested in the mess above, I am only interested in this READ:
Proverbs 8:31Rejoicing in the habitable part of
HIS EARTH…..
OK MIKE! THE ABOVE IS THE FIRST TIME THAT I POINTED OUT A CLEAR SCRIPTURE THAT IRONICALLY YOU PRODUCED, RELATED TO THE
PERFECT EARTH OF Genesis 1:1
OUR EARTH OF THE SIX-DAY CREATION IS
GOD’S FOOTSTOOL,
NOT GOD’S HABITABLE EARTH
SINCE IT WAS SUBJECT TO
DEATH, DARKNESS, AND ALL THE CHAOS OF GENESIS 1:2
This is also asserted by Isaiah, and Jesus hereunder. Read
Isaiah66:1 THUS saith the Lord: Heaven is my throne, and
the earth my footstool:
Matthew 5:34 But I say to you not to swear at all, neither by heaven, for it is the throne of God: 35Nor by the earth,
for it is his footstool:….
Now just one more scripture that definitely makes you ponder what Genesis 1:1 is in the truth!
Rev.13:8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in
the book of life of the Lamb
slain from the foundation of the world.
Whether you answer or not it’s your pigeon!
EXPLAIN WHY JESUS WAS SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM
THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD!
NOTICE NOT FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH! OF GENESIS 1:1
OBVIOUS PERFECT! NO?
BUT FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD! SPECIFICALLY A REFERENCE TO THE SIX-DAY CREATION OF GENESIS 1:3…..
OBVIOUS AGAIN VERY GOOD/CORRUPTED. NO?
YOUR SILENCE CONFIRMS MY TRUTH!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
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