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But here’s what most people don’t know: Science is investigation and collection of data. That’s it. Science doesn’t take a stance one way or the other about ANY subject. It is ONLY the act of investigating, collecting and testing data.
So for example, science is the act of looking up in the night sky and collecting data on the lights we see. Anyone who can do this is, by definition, a scientist. But science won’t tell us what those lights are… only that they appear to be lights that move across the sky in repeated patterns.
Flawed and biased men then study the scientific data we gather about those lights and make INTERPRETATIONS of what those data mean.
Anyone can catch a fish, but not all are fishermen. Catching a fish is not the definition of a fisherman. Likewise, we can all engage in science or discovery, but not all are scientists.
However, besides being paid to catch fish or work out physics equations, an amateur might love catching fish and do it repeatedly and by extension of that be called a fisherman. So it is that an amateur can be a scientist.
What you engage in Mike is not science however. You are not qualified. At this stage, you are a person seeking to look at anything that backs up your predefined belief and discard anything that contradicts it. I have met people like this before. They were the Trinitarians. So enamoured by their doctrine, that all scripture, reason, and observation was discarded by default.
This condition of wilful blindness can happen to anyone it seems. But the common elements IMO would have to be pride and trusting in your own understanding above all else. It is what happens to people who have ears but choose not to hear. Such make themselves into fools.
LU: Please show me where one god is referred to as the plural “elohim” in the verse that you used.
Here’s Blue Letter Bible…
And here’s NET Bible…
It’s not uncommon in the scriptures. Here is Yahweh referring to Satan as a god and using the plural form…
Berean and I are saying the same thing with different words. You don’t seem to understand that. You react affirmatively towards Berean and the opposite towards me. We are essentially saying the same thing.
Ask Berean. I often correct him too. But my assessment that you reference was a reaction to his prior post that I happened to totally agree with. But when he says that Jesus is THE God because he has divine nature, then I oppose him.
Hey Kathi, I just learned something. I always assumed that the masculine form was used of Ashteroth in 1 Kings 11:33, and that translators just inserted “goddess” because this god appeared as a feminine entity to her worshipers. I thought the translators were taking liberties. But apparently, Yahweh actually called “her” by the feminine plural form! 😳
You may believe in God and the Bible – but you also believe the interpretations that the earth is 4.5 billion years old OVER the Bible – which says it is 6000 years old
Where is the verse that says this? Nowhere. You are simply using your misguided interpretation to get to this understanding. That is not the Bible, but your own head.
A day for God is not like a day for us. Fact. Accept it or call Peter a liar. The Day of Wrath is probably not 24 hours. Likewise the hour of judgement is probably not 60 minutes. You’re flogging a dead horse Mike. Doing such will not make the horse stand up and run.
#definitionofmadnessGene: ALSO , being a son of God does not make you a God.
According to the scriptures, it absolutely positively DOES make you a god. Gene, go through that list of scriptures I posted for you at the top of the previous page. Look at all the gods we learn about in the Bible – including Jesus.
Please pick one of the two scriptures I listed that name Jesus as a god, and explain to us how those scriptures are NOT calling him a god. Explain how they are only calling him a “false god” or whatever.
That is your challenge. I think I posted 8 scriptures. Take your pick and explain how the Bible (including Yahweh Himself) explicitly calls them gods, but they are not “really” gods.
Carmel: Genesis 1:1 DOES NOT MENTION THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM,
JUST EARTH
AS THERE WAS NO SEA AT ALL!THE SEA WAS INTRODUCED ONLY IN THE SIX-DAY CREATION, TEMPORARY TO DISTINGUISH THE GOOD AND THE EVIL PROCESS IN THE WATER!
Carmel, the entirety of Genesis 1 is the process by which God created the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them. He did all of that in six days. We know this because He told us.
If you show me a scripture that clearly and undeniably teaches us about a previous “perfect earth”, I’m willing to learn about it. In the meantime, listen to your Lord Jesus…
Proverbs 8:22-31… The LORD created me as the first of his works, before his deeds of old. I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be. When there were no watery depths, I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before he made the world or its fields or any of the dust of the earth. I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he inscribed a circle on the face of the deep, when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was constantly at his side. I was filled with delight day after day rejoicing always in his presence, rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.
Jesus says he was there when “the world came to be”. And then he describes our current world – with land and water and mountains and fields and clouds and mankind. He describes the process by which God created this current world – and it doesn’t include flooding an older “perfect” dirt world with a garden that previously existed.
Proclaimer: nutjob
noun: nutjob;
plural noun: nutjobs;
noun: nut-job;
plural noun: nut-jobs
a mad or crazy person
Totally agree Mike. But I just quoted the truth on its own. It was up to members here to react to it if they thought it lined up with them somehow.
LU: Thank you for your apology, I appreciate that you are open to the clarification.
I too believe Yahweh and Jesus are two different gods. Yahweh is the Most High God of Jesus and all the other gods. And it is Yahweh we are to worship and serve as our God – just like His servant Jesus does.
Btw, I learned all of these things from Jesus himself.
Hi Mike,
Thanks for putting up those verses about the use of the plural Hebrew word for gods. I would suspect that there is another reason besides implying super greatness or a majestic plural but I don’t have time to run down that rabbit trail.
You said: I too believe Yahweh and Jesus are two different gods.
You are aware that I don’t believe that, correct? You used the word “too” as if you were agreeing with me. Who is it that you are agreeing with that thinks that Yahweh and Jesus are two different gods?
Proclaimer
You said: your gospel is foreign to heaven
Do you think that “my gospel” is consistent with one who believes that John 1:18 correctly calls Jesus the only begotten God?
Now think further… If Jesus had claimed that he was existing alongside God in heaven and then was sent down from heaven to tell the humans something, those humans would understand that Jesus was claiming to be a heavenly son of God – and therefore a god! Because heavenly sons of God ARE gods, Gene!
Do you understand now? Jesus point blank claimed – at many times and in many different ways – to have been a son of God who was sent down from heaven. Because of these claims, the Jews accused him of blasphemy because THEY believed him to be a mere man, and here he was claiming to be a heavenly son of God, therefore a god! Because heavenly sons of God ARE gods, Gene!
So you just accused ME of being the one who believed the blind Pharisees. But in reality it is YOU. Because YOU are the one who believes Jesus was merely a man like they did. See, they knew that Jesus was CLAIMING to be a heavenly son of God who was sent down from heaven, therefore a god. It’s just that they didn’t BELIEVE what he claimed from his own mouth. You are just like them, Gene. You don’t believe what Jesus said about himself either.
But that’s why they accused him of blasphemy, Gene. Not because he LIED when he said he was a heavenly son of God (a god) who was sent down from heaven. But because they simply didn’t BELIEVE him WHEN he said it.
And Jesus didn’t DENY their accusation that he was claiming to be a god, Gene. He merely explained that if God called His heavenly sons “gods” in Psalm 82 (the ones who did wrong and were condemned), then why wouldn’t God’s heavenly son who was set aside by God as special and sent into the earth not also be at least as much of a son of God (god) as those condemned ones were.
Here’s the short version: Jesus responded by asking how it was blasphemous to claim to be a son of God from heaven since that’s what he truly was. Understand? He said he was a son of God sent down from heaven. They (and you) didn’t believe him. They (and you) accused him of LYING when he claimed to be something he actually was!
Hi brother Gene, the above post of brother Mike gives details of how the Christianity had gone into mythology like any other religion that includes even Judaism. The writer of John’s Gospel clearly states that Jesus was preexisting and came down from heaven as per verses John 3:13, 17, 31; 6:62. This confusion of God and gods is another issue for understanding Jesus’ nature in the NT.
Hi LU
Berean,
You agree with this, right?
YHVH is both the Father and the Son, two persons. One God + one Lord, united in one Spirit.=YHVH.
Me
I rather believe that the Father and the Son share the same NAME (divine name: YHVH) or in other words that the Son bears the name of the Father (YHVH) because he IS TRULY THE SON OF GOD.
I’m not saying that he forms one God: YHVH
although they are “ONE”
IN SUBSTANCE (Nature)
IN MIND
FROM HEART ❤️
IN PURPOSE
BUT NOT IN PERSONGood day 🙏
Correction
I wrote in my previous post:
I’m not saying that he forms one God: YHVH
I WANTED TO SAY:
I’m not saying that THEY forms one God: YHVH
Mike…….Give me what your definition of GOD “IS” , IF YOU GET THE RIGHT DEFINITION YOU WILL SEE what I am saying Mike. Tey to get the “oraginal” Hebrew definition, it has been abridged over time . YOU SHOULD FIND , God’s are not persons, they “anything you believe and trust in for your “power”. THE WORD God Is a relationship, with anything that exists, dosen’t have to be a person or any living thing, even a Stone idol can be “YOUR” TRUE GOD. The word God “ONLY” describes YOUR RELATION SHIP WITH IT. That is why we always say things like , the God of this, or that , my God, his God, the God of the pagans, but you see we “true believers “only ” have “ONE” GOD, his name is YAHOVAH. there exists no other God to US.
See what I mean Mike , to us and JESUS there is only “ONE” “TRUE” GOD, all the rest are “FALSE” GOD’S to us, because we keep the Father’s commandment , “you shall have “NO” OT B ER God’s besides ME”.
Peach and love to you and yours. Mike………..gene
Gene, when Yahovah calls Jesus a god, is he calling Jesus a false god? Yes or no?
Now please answer my questions from before…
WHY did the Jews accuse Jesus of making himself out to be a god?
WHY didn’t Jesus deny their accusation?
Never seen a verse like this for example:
On the sixth day a god called Jesus healed a man called Bruce. Or, the god Jesus came in the flesh. Or the one true God begat another true god called Jesus Christ. He is the second God.
Your doctrine of gods doesn’t seem to be practiced in biblical times though. Perhaps we need to start using god for Jesus? Jesus the God because he is a god? Starting to sound like the Trinity to me. Could it be that you will be a Trinitarian or Binitarian? Because if Jesus is a god, then he is the god when you are referencing him. So we have one God the Father and one god the Son.
All roads lead to the Trinity. Lol.
Israel finds first case of polio in over 30 years in four year old girl
She was unvaccinated for Polio.
Hi Mike,
You: Carmel, the entirety of Genesis 1 is the process by which God created the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them. He did all of that in six days.
We know this because He told us.
Me: SHOW ME THE SCRIPTURE WHICH SAYS PRECISELY THESE WORDS HEREUNDER!
GOD CREATED THE HEAVEN, THE EARTH, THE SEA, AND EVERYTHING IN THEM!
GENESIS 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Me: Sorry Mike, but the scripture above is clear and there is only
HEAVEN/S and EARTH MENTIONED NOTHING ELSE, and THAT TO ME IS A REFERENCE TO HEAVEN/S AND EARTH COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM THE HEAVEN AND EARTH MENTIONED IN THE SIX-DAY CREATION!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Mike,
You: In the meantime, listen to your Lord Jesus…
Proverbs 8:22
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills were I was brought forth:
26While as yet he had not MADE the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31Rejoicing in the habitable part of HIS EARTH (SPIRITUAL! NOT OUR CORRUPTED PHYSICAL EARTH, WHICH IS HIS FOOTSTOOL)
and my delights were with the sons of men.( IN GOD’S OWN TERMS)
Reading the above description Mike, it clearly describes how God didn’t create the very first world of Genesis 1:1 in SIX DAYS!
In the above description, God did all sorts of WORKS AND DEEDS but He never CREATED anything at all YET,
IN FACT THE WORD “CREATE” IS INEXISTENT!
never mind He created/MADE OUR CURRENT WORLD IN SIX DAYS!
Peace and love Jesus Christ
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