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ED J………That is my Point there is (NO) FREE WILL that EXISTS. ALL WILL are INFLUENCED BY Our KNOWLEDGE WE HAVE ACQUIRED IN THE PAST, that is why The words FREE WILL being (IN) us is no where in scripture found, I am not saying we don't have WILLS (IN) Us , what i am saying it they are not “FREE” WILLS, but INFLUENCED WILLS. FREE WILL IS AN OXYMORON, it simply can not be a WILL if it is FREE. The very word WILL shows influences, People get confused with the fact that God allows us liberty to exercise our influenced wills mixed up with us having a will that is FREE operating (IN) us.
peace and love……………………………………gene
Gene,
Is this 'No free will' your dying 'swansong'?
Can you not just agree that 'Free Will' means what 'EVERYBODY' understands it to mean?
Yes, every choice we make is 'Influenced', and as so, it needs not be stated.
Therefore our Will, is Always Influenced.
Therefore, it need not be stated that it is influenced.
Therefore the need to state each and every time, to pointless value, that 'Will' is influenced, is just that…pointless.
Everyone is FREE to make an 'Influenced choice' (Will), a FREE WILL.
JA………Glad you do see that a WILL (IS) Not FREE of INFLUENCE and therefore is not a FREE WILL. That is why i ask for (ONE) scripture that says we have a “FREE” WILL (IN) Us , i did not ask if we have liberty to exorcise that (INFLUENCED) WILL DID I , in fact i have agreed that we are at liberty to exercise our (INFLUENCED) WILLS. Scripture shows clearly that there is no such thing as a Will that is FREE in itself. If a will was free of Influences it simply would not be a will would it? The term “FREE WILL” is an OXYMORON. That is all my point has ever been in this whole thing.
Some think this not an important issue but it really is because it shown in whose hands our salvation really is in, it it in our selves with wills FREE from GOD or is it and act of GOD (INFLUENCING) OUR Hearts and Will to do of HIS good pleasure. Follow what i am saying brother.
peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 19 2010,01:15) Oxy…….. 1) It seems we go around and around and no matter how many scriptures we quote and show plainly they are not recieved by the one with the opposite view, but we all at time are guilty of that right?
2) That is why i wish we could establish a system of forcing others to comply to a set of rules that when a question is ask the other person must answer it specifically or admit they simply can't (3)Like for instance if I ask you to show (SPECIFICALLY) how flesh can become a word. That to me is impossible for flesh to literally be come a word.
…………………..gene
Hi Gene,1) Not if your looking for the Truth part of what the other believes!
2) Forcing others goes against “Free Will”!
(3) OK show us all where it says we have an 'influenced will'?
If you CAN'T, then admit that 'you' can't ! ! !!!!!!Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Gene Balthrop @ June 30 2010,11:06) To All……………..I believe that we should all go back to first base Here and go from there and try to come to a simple conclusion of basic things, our problems seem to come from spinning of into all kinds of conclusions we make by our preconceive ideas and maybe not looking at some simple word in the right way. This causes speculations on our part (that includes me also). So why not just take one Big word used in scripture and all of us come to a consensus on it. For example the Word SPIRIT what is Spirit?, Some think it's a (BEING) of some kind, others like me think it is a (INTELLECT) producing our thoughts. Some think it is both But i truly believe if we could get this thing clear in our minds it would clear up so many scriptures it would be amazing. I have found that looking at Spirit as (INTELLECT) fits most all scriptures relating to Spirit. I look at Spirit, (Metaphoric speaking), as this big pool of water and we are vessels that contain some of that water in us some more then others this enables us to realize things and gives us understandings.
But one thing is that this “waters” is never new and it is all the same water, it's just the amount (in) a vessel that the difference,it can never be done away with , it can only be poured back into the place where it came from. This same water can be added to any vessel in varying amounts or subtracted until the vessel is completely empty and the vessel remains alone and corrupts. But God can created another Vessel and add this water (spirit) back into it again and then would be alive again as it was before the water or spirit was taken away from it. GOD himself is that WATER and Pours Himself into the vessels or they could not have any life whatsoever. God is the tree that produces Live in all thing that has life.
I am interested on other opinions regarding what (SPIRIT) is in it simplest meaning. I conclude SPIRIT is INTELLECT Just that simple.I know this subject has a Thread some where , but i want us to remove all the confusion surrounding the Word Spirit, what is the most simplest understanding of it we can have.
peace and love to you all………………….gene
Dear Confused (Gene),You asked “what” is spirit referring to The Holy Spirit and the topic jumped to Free Will. If you are wanting to know “truth” wouldn't it be better to ask WHO is the Holy Spirit? and that would eventually answer what the Spirit does.
It is like asking WHAT is God. WHO will tell you God's traits and WHAT will tell you God's actions.
Or you can ask people to DEFINE what you are looking for.
There are over 150 different usages for RUN so you could get 200 responses and all could be correct. Depends on each person's perspectives and beliefs.Spirit in general could be ALL of the concepts presented here to include INTELLECT which led into free will and other comments, all of which are valid.
THE HOLY SPIRIT is something entirely different as this is part of Elohim and is a feminine noun….so this IS a BEING. Within this Being (person) are 7 spirits (IS 11:2) and they are:
Spirit of YHVH
Fear of YHVH
Wisdom
Understanding
Knowledge
Power (Strength)
CounselTherefore, getting back to “First Base” I believe you wanted to address the Being, The Holy Spirit, no? Otherwise you will just get a bunch of opinions regarding spirit, generally.
Knowing The Holy Spirit will prove to be fruitful to your lives.
Opinionating on spirit will be meaningful to the intellect and provide countless hours of speculation.So, quoting from you “the most simplest understanding of it we can have” is that “IT” is not an it but is the feminine (by definition of the word) essence of God (Elohim). And if the Holy Spirit is a feminine noun what pronoun should you use? She!
It would be nice to get a baseline understanding of God between believers so that we could be united.
Look at the differences with your thread concerning the Holy Spirit; some call the HS “It, He and now me She.” When you are addressing a specific entity not ALL of us can be right.
IF, again by definition, the HS is a feminine noun THEN what is the only logical conclusion can you arrive at?
We will have “scholars” here interpreting what the word really should mean or how Hebrew or Greek culture would treat the word and otherwise try to negate what IS written. Others don't really care what the word means and only want to voice opinions which is okay, too….which provides for hours of philosophical debates.
Ask Ed J and he can give you a numerical reading of spirit in his systemology.
Oh and for the FREE WILL section of posts:
Where is the free will if God chose us (in Christ) BEFORE the foundation of the world? I thought WE get to choose in free will.
Peace to you, Gene
David
Quote (seekingtruth @ July 20 2010,22:08) Isn't that why we have a will… to is choose between different influences? Wm
Greetings seeking….This can be a tedeous topic for some,but your question certainly hits the nail on the head….God gave us all the option to choose right from wrong /good from evil and the exercising of this option constitutes will (our will )and we are free to choose either(liberty)….eg.Free Will…and yes the scripture does not speak of free will verbatim but it certainly sites many situations where man exercised his options to do as he/she saw fit…starting in the garden…Quote (davidbfun @ July 20 2010,23:06) Dear Confused (Gene), You asked “what” is spirit referring to The Holy Spirit and the topic jumped to Free Will. If you are wanting to know “truth” wouldn't it be better to ask WHO is the Holy Spirit? and that would eventually answer what the Spirit does.
It is like asking WHAT is God. WHO will tell you God's traits and WHAT will tell you God's actions.
Or you can ask people to DEFINE what you are looking for.
There are over 150 different usages for RUN so you could get 200 responses and all could be correct. Depends on each person's perspectives and beliefs.Spirit in general could be ALL of the concepts presented here to include INTELLECT which led into free will and other comments, all of which are valid.
THE HOLY SPIRIT is something entirely different as this is part of Elohim and is a feminine noun….so this IS a BEING. Within this Being (person) are 7 spirits (IS 11:2) and they are:
Spirit of YHVH
Fear of YHVH
Wisdom
Understanding
Knowledge
Power (Strength)
CounselTherefore, getting back to “First Base” I believe you wanted to address the Being, The Holy Spirit, no? Otherwise you will just get a bunch of opinions regarding spirit, generally.
Knowing The Holy Spirit will prove to be fruitful to your lives.
Opinionating on spirit will be meaningful to the intellect and provide countless hours of speculation.So, quoting from you “the most simplest understanding of it we can have” is that “IT” is not an it but is the feminine (by definition of the word) essence of God (Elohim). And if the Holy Spirit is a feminine noun what pronoun should you use? She!
It would be nice to get a baseline understanding of God between believers so that we could be united.
Look at the differences with your thread concerning the Holy Spirit; some call the HS “It, He and now me She.” When you are addressing a specific entity not ALL of us can be right.
IF, again by definition, the HS is a feminine noun THEN what is the only logical conclusion can you arrive at?
We will have “scholars” here interpreting what the word really should mean or how Hebrew or Greek culture would treat the word and otherwise try to negate what IS written. Others don't really care what the word means and only want to voice opinions which is okay, too….which provides for hours of philosophical debates.
Ask Ed J and he can give you a numerical reading of spirit in his systemology.
Oh and for the FREE WILL section of posts:
Where is the free will if God chose us (in Christ) BEFORE the foundation of the world? I thought WE get to choose in free will.
Peace to you, Gene
David
Hi David,Click here and look at the Second Post from the bottom.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (theodorej @ July 20 2010,23:26) Quote (seekingtruth @ July 20 2010,22:08) Isn't that why we have a will… to is choose between different influences? Wm
Greetings seeking….This can be a tedeous topic for some,but your question certainly hits the nail on the head….God gave us all the option to choose right from wrong /good from evil and the exercising of this option constitutes will (our will )and we are free to choose either(liberty)….eg.Free Will…and yes the scripture does not speak of free will verbatim but it certainly sites many situations where man exercised his options to do as he/she saw fit…starting in the garden…
therodorej…………Well at least One honest man here (ADMITS) there is no scriptures that states we have a “FREE” WILL (IN) Us.WE all have Wills that is true and those will are driven will by our knowledge and this knowledge gives us our desires driving our will. We do have (LIBERTY) to exercise those (driven) desires. But again as i have said before having liberty to exercise does not equal to us having a So-called “FREE” WILL operating (IN) Us. In fact scripture shows just the opposite we are held captive by our Wills.
Our Wills are what we must put to death, because they are the force of (OUR) lives . Therefore it is said by Jesus Whosoever will SAVE His LIFE (His own Will) Shall lose it and Whosoever will Lose His Life for the kingdom of God's sake shall save it. Man want to save His (OWN) Life and live it according to (HIS OWN WILL) a Will held captive by His own thoughts.
FREE WILL (IS) and OXYMORON , Liberty to exercise our Captivated WILL is Given to Us by GOD for a period of time but in the end (ONLY) ONE WILL , will be done. and it wouldn't be our WILLS> IMO
Theodorej…………thanks for at least your honesty brother.
peace and love to you and yours………………………gene
Davidbfun………….The object i was trying to drive at about spirit was (IT'S) most simple explanation of what spirit was in a general sense. To me all spirit is thoughts that compose our intellects we have. It is neither male of Female in fact (IT) Spirit does not exist in physical sense. IMO Spirit is life because it (IS) intellect functioning in life. It can be added or removed as when a person dies It returns to its source. God has given Spirit to his creation to perform as He see fit so it will function according to HIS WILL. Our very salvation is GOD changing our Hearts and minds by His Spirits. He simply removes the wrong spirits and replaces it with right spirits, this is how He transforms us , it is by transforming our minds or thinking , removing the wrong thinking and replacing it with right thinking. No one can do this by any amount of His captivated WILL , it take GOD to CREATE THAT IN US. Our own Will have nothing to do with or salvation until it has been changed by GOD Alone. Then the saying is brought about “FOR (HE) WORKS IN US (BOTH) TO (WILL) AND DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE”. The true people of GOD love this scripture those who are not of God hate that scripture, because they hate the idea of losing there OWN so-called WILLS, they want to be “FREE” from GOD'S influence and power in their lives. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………….gene
Confused.
The title of this thread is well made.
Gene is right that 'Will' is influenced (Gene, I wrote this before. How is it you read above as if it's the first time. Is this part of the Amnesia in this forum?)
However, what is the point.
Correct. To show that 'our will' conflicts with 'God's Will'
That we are influenced away from the will of God and that without that 'Influence' we would do he Will of God, the uninfluenced will of God.
But how about coming to an understanding. This 'Free Will'/'Influenced Will' thing has been going for quite some time and Gene has not got off base one in the conversion of others.
Adam Chose, of his own will, after being influenced by Satan, to disregard God's command.
This can be simply stated as,'Adam made a free will choice to disregard God's command'.
Is this latter statement wrong? Less Right??wrong, in a refined definition because it wasn't his 'free will' but his 'influenced will'?'The choice', as they say, 'is [Influencially] yours'
Quote (Ed J @ July 20 2010,18:02) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 19 2010,01:15) Oxy…….. 1) It seems we go around and around and no matter how many scriptures we quote and show plainly they are not recieved by the one with the opposite view, but we all at time are guilty of that right?
2) That is why i wish we could establish a system of forcing others to comply to a set of rules that when a question is ask the other person must answer it specifically or admit they simply can't (3)Like for instance if I ask you to show (SPECIFICALLY) how flesh can become a word. That to me is impossible for flesh to literally be come a word.
…………………..gene
Hi Gene,1) Not if your looking for the Truth part of what the other believes!
2) Forcing others goes against “Free Will”!
(3) OK show us all where it says we have an 'influenced will'?
If you CAN'T, then admit that 'you' can't ! ! !!!!!!Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hey Gene,Have you forgotten what you said here?
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgED J…………if you would spend more time trying to understand what others are saying instead finding faults with people , it would serev you as well as the work of God much better. IMO
peace and love………………….gene
Quote (Ed J @ July 20 2010,18:02) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 19 2010,01:15) Oxy…….. 1) It seems we go around and around and no matter how many scriptures we quote and show plainly they are not recieved by the one with the opposite view, but we all at time are guilty of that right?
2) That is why i wish we could establish a system of forcing others to comply to a set of rules that when a question is ask the other person must answer it specifically or admit they simply can't (3)Like for instance if I ask you to show (SPECIFICALLY) how flesh can become a word. That to me is impossible for flesh to literally be come a word.
…………………..gene
Hi Gene,1) Not if your looking for the Truth part of what the other believes!
2) Forcing others goes against “Free Will”!
(3) OK show us all where it says we have an 'influenced will'?
If you CAN'T, then admit that 'you' can't ! ! !!!!!!Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Gene,You know what it is called when you want 'your words' 'only' to apply to others don't you?
JA………Thanks for at least serening what i am saying. But you can't have it both ways brother, You either have a will that is (FREE) and i mean completely FREE of (ANY) influences or you have a WILL the is an (INFLUENCED WILL). Now lets consider Adam and Eve were they not (INFLUENCED) By and Adversarial Spirit to disobey GOD or not?, was it by their own “freewill” they chose to disobey or was it and influenced Will at work (IN) them. “For when the Women saw that the tree was good in order to make one wise She ate of it and gave to her husband and he also ate of it.
Mpw may be a good time to go int something else or not i am not sure , but consider this , why do all the world turn against Jesus and the Saints at the end of their 1000 year reign. They have all be taught from childhood only Gods ways and full well know His comandments and had for a thousand year experienced a Utopian existence. What happened then , what went wrong, for these perfectly taught and train people to change and turn fro God and Jesus and the Saints, was it they Just simply changed their Minds (by the operation of their own “FREE” WILL, or was it because the WILLS were Change by the same influence that influenced Adam and Eve and that is Why the (ALL) Changed and went to declare war on Jesus and the Saints. And God brought Fire down and devious them. Why was Not one of them saved Just Jesus and the Saints ONLY. This is a Huge Lesson that we can now learn from. It was because of the new influence , influencing them that was realeased on the earth, not ONES s-called FREE WILL saved them from that destruction, WHY, because a WILL is (NOT) FREE from Influence yours now or mine they never were brother.
The Difference between the Saints and Jesus was that GOD Was (IN) the Preventing those evil INFLUENCES from operating (IN) them which could have changed their WILL, WE MUST be KEPT OR MAINTAINED BY GOD the FATHER HIMSELF as JESUS WAS and IS. IMO
Hopefully you can see my point Hope this did not overwhelm you brother, But i believe you can understand this. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene
Gene, this is to be my last post here, Im on another site, but id like to bring this up again for your thought…(on nous)
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Written by a Orthodox…
Man, by nature, is supposed to have a functional nous.
However, when the Scriptures speak of the natural man they mean the man who is dominated either by the base physical needs of his nature (the carnal man) or, at most, the concerns of the reasoning faculties (i.e. aesthetics, learning, society).
The spiritual man, who has a functional nous, is dominated by concerns of the spirit – that is to say, through grace and asceticism he is no longer a slave to the things of the flesh, but is rather a slave of Christ's (whom he knows via his spiritual eye – the nous).
So man, by nature is spiritual; but the natural man has lost this (being controlled by unspiritual things), and is therefore not able to perceive matters of the spirit.
We all have spirit, but not all spirits are healthy. Even an alcoholic has a liver, but it may not be functioning properly. We miss out on the matters of the spirit if we ignore God and turn from Him, becoming enslaved to the flesh.
The spirit is indeed the breath of God in us (as is all of our life), but uniquely it is the means by which we are to know God. Don't think of it like an immaterial ghost, because that implies a whole host of neo-platonic dualism which we reject. Rather, the spirit (the nous) is the essence of our self-hood – the core point at which our physical self (the body) is able to interact with the immaterial world.
In prayer, when you are conscious (not thoughtful of, as in recollecting, but merely and undeniably aware) of God and God's love. This is called the “prayer of the heart” (or prayer of the nous), and is the highest form of prayer. It requires no words, as words are insufficient. It is worshipper worshipping, and it is God's love loving the beloved (us) and being adored and loved in return.
Reason is something fleshly – but remember that the flesh isn't evil. It is only when it controls us that it is evil (and then it is the weakness of our will that is the source of the sin, not the flesh itself).
The Fathers say that the purpose of reason is NOT to deduce truth, but rather to guard the heart. Reason helps us discern good from evil, and acts as a filter on our involuntary thoughts (helping us accept good ones and reject bad ones). It is an aid to our senses, and a means of exercising our will, but it is not the highest faculty of man (despite what you may hear from western humanism).
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Remember, I cant reply though…
God bless.
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