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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 02 2010,01:52) All who believe in the TRINITY and PREEXISTENCE Doctrines (ARE) ANTICHRISTS. Their Minds have recieved a delusion because they did not receive the love of the truth, nor do they truly seek it either. There for GOD has sent unto them a deluding Spirit (intellect) in order for them to believe The LIE. And that LIE hinges on two things, that Jesus IS A GOD and that he PREEXISTED his berth on earth, as a BEING of some kind.
Gene,
You and I agree on most things. But I have to say that on pre-existence, I differ with you. I believe scripture firmly states that Jesus was Gods “original creation”, and all was created by Him (Jesus) though the power of God.
I'll quote some scriptures that explain my viewpoint:Eph.1:9-10
9 making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He (God) purposed in Him (Jesus) 10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ — both that in the heavens and that on the earth —Notice “to head up ALL in the Christ” ALL means “ALL”
This is why He is called “the Alpha & Omega” the beggining and the end. (of creation)Col.1:15-16
15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
16 for in Him (Jesus) is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,Notice “First born of every creature…” continue…
Also “all is created through Him (Jesus) and for Him”, (all means all)All has been placed in His (Jesus) hands, until the “Consummation” the completed work of creation, when He (Jesus) turns it over to the “Father” (God)
1Cor.15:24-28
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself (Jesus) also shall be subjected to Him (God) Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)I believe this scipture concerning the “consummation”, the completed creation, verifies this.
This is my understanding, and why I believe His (Jesus) existance before His human birth.
God Bless, Jerry.
Chooseone wrote:
Quote Notice “to head up ALL in the Christ” ALL means “ALL”
This is why He is called “the Alpha & Omega” the beginning and the end. (of creation)That is not what that phrase means. It rather means the sole one as the sole one is both the beginning and end of its set just as Alpha is the beginning and Omega is the end of the Greek alphabet.
Scripture has examples to demonstrate this and John knew of these examples as should his readers. Isaiah 44:6 and 48:12.
Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2010,08:41) Chooseone wrote: Quote Notice “to head up ALL in the Christ” ALL means “ALL”
This is why He is called “the Alpha & Omega” the beginning and the end. (of creation)That is not what that phrase means. It rather means the sole one as the sole one is both the beginning and end of its set just as Alpha is the beginning and Omega is the end of the Greek alphabet.
Scripture has examples to demonstrate this and John knew of these examples as should his readers. Isaiah 44:6 and 48:12.
kerwin.
Rev.21:6
And He said to me, “I have become the Alpha and the Omega, the Origin and the Consummation. To him who is thirsting I shall be giving of the spring of the water of life gratuitously.Also Rev.22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Origin and the Consummation.I believe these two scriptures are very clear about the meaning of this term, as I described it.
Blessings.
Chsenone……Indeed Christ is exactly what the beginning and the end will be. if fact He is the First and exactly like the last to. GOD'S Spirit produces the same results in Jesus and (ALL) who Have it in them. The CHRISTOS or Anointing Spirit, is indeed what Heads all up in one and the same thing, as son and daughters of GOD the FATHER, it produces the same in the First as in the last.
Another thing to think about is where you quoted “HE HEADED UP ALL IN (THE) CHRIST” This can also mean He GOD Headed up all in the CHRISTOS, or Anointing . This Anointing was in Jesus and In all who have recieved it to. So that would be all headed up in the Anointing. Think about it. IMO, I know we do see many things alike brother.
peace and love to you and yours……………….gene
Quote (kerwin @ April 01 2010,19:08) Jodi Lee, I believe some are referring to 2 Corinthians 3:17 which is actually referring to God and not Jesus. Still they are taking it at a slant to the way it is intended by Paul is as the Spirit to God as our spirit is to us. It would also be to Jesus in a like manner as his Spirit is God's spirit. In fact when we are born again in spirit the spirit of righteousness becomes our spirit as well because we then gain God's spirit. That is what the unity of the spirit is about.
Other than that I cannot think of where they would get such a teaching except through conjecture based on a flawed understanding of scripture. Of course even what I pointed out is a flawed understanding but it is an explicit one and not a conjectural one.
kwon your comment on; 2 Corinthians 3:17 you say;I believe some are referring to 2 Corinthians 3:17 which is actually referring to God and not Jesus.
you should read it more carefully because it talks abode Jesus the lord,2Co 3:15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
2Co 3:16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
2Co 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.Treasures in Jars of Clay
2Co 4:1 Therefore, since through God’s mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart.
2Co 4:2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
2Co 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
2Co 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
2Co 4:5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.
2Co 4:6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.Quote (chosenone @ April 02 2010,07:44) Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2010,08:41) Chooseone wrote: Quote Notice “to head up ALL in the Christ” ALL means “ALL”
This is why He is called “the Alpha & Omega” the beginning and the end. (of creation)That is not what that phrase means. It rather means the sole one as the sole one is both the beginning and end of its set just as Alpha is the beginning and Omega is the end of the Greek alphabet.
Scripture has examples to demonstrate this and John knew of these examples as should his readers. Isaiah 44:6 and 48:12.
kerwin.
Rev.21:6
And He said to me, “I have become the Alpha and the Omega, the Origin and the Consummation. To him who is thirsting I shall be giving of the spring of the water of life gratuitously.Also Rev.22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Origin and the Consummation.I believe these two scriptures are very clear about the meaning of this term, as I described it.
Blessings.
I do not see why you think it is so clear since if you actually looked at the Greek language the word translated “Origion” in both scriptures is “archē” which among other things means the first in a series. The Greek word “telos” translated “consumption” means the last in a series in one of its definitions.Jesus is the one and only Son of God and God is the one and only God.
Terraricca wrote:
Quote on your comment on; 2 Corinthians 3:17 you say;I believe some are referring to 2 Corinthians 3:17 which is actually referring to God and not Jesus.
you should read it more carefully because it talks abode Jesus the lord,2Co 3:15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
You could very well be correct as I just took a quick look at the passage before posting and the title “The Lord” can either refer to God or Jesus. Paul could very well be teaching that when you look at the mediator Mosses, i.e. the old covenant, you have a veil over your mind but when you look at the mediator Jesus, i.e. the new covenant. The veil is taken away by walking according to the spirit of righteousness.
I do not believe that error significant alters the points in my post as I also stated the same is true of both Jesus and God as the Spirit of God is also the Spirit of Christ and vice-versa.
Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2010,16:29) Quote (chosenone @ April 02 2010,07:44) Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2010,08:41) Chooseone wrote: Quote Notice “to head up ALL in the Christ” ALL means “ALL”
This is why He is called “the Alpha & Omega” the beginning and the end. (of creation)That is not what that phrase means. It rather means the sole one as the sole one is both the beginning and end of its set just as Alpha is the beginning and Omega is the end of the Greek alphabet.
Scripture has examples to demonstrate this and John knew of these examples as should his readers. Isaiah 44:6 and 48:12.
kerwin.
Rev.21:6
And He said to me, “I have become the Alpha and the Omega, the Origin and the Consummation. To him who is thirsting I shall be giving of the spring of the water of life gratuitously.Also Rev.22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Origin and the Consummation.I believe these two scriptures are very clear about the meaning of this term, as I described it.
Blessings.
I do not see why you think it is so clear since if you actually looked at the Greek language the word translated “Origion” in both scriptures is “archē” which among other things means the first in a series. The Greek word “telos” translated “consumption” means the last in a series in one of its definitions.Jesus is the one and only Son of God and God is the one and only God.
Using the “Interlinear Scripture Analyser”, the Greek word ha means alpha, O means omega. archE means original or beginning, telos means finish or consummation. I suppose it comes down to which sources you trust most.Blessings.
Choosenone,
In this case you may be having trouble with the English langage as the “first in the series” is where the series origionates and the “last in the series” is where the series finishes or consumates.
The last I heard God was eternal having no beginnig and no end, Genesis 21:33 and Deuteronomy 33:27.
Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2010,16:44) Terraricca wrote: Quote on your comment on; 2 Corinthians 3:17 you say;I believe some are referring to 2 Corinthians 3:17 which is actually referring to God and not Jesus.
you should read it more carefully because it talks abode Jesus the lord,2Co 3:15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
You could very well be correct as I just took a quick look at the passage before posting and the title “The Lord” can either refer to God or Jesus. Paul could very well be teaching that when you look at the mediator Mosses, i.e. the old covenant, you have a veil over your mind but when you look at the mediator Jesus, i.e. the new covenant. The veil is taken away by walking according to the spirit of righteousness.
I do not believe that error significant alters the points in my post as I also stated the same is true of both Jesus and God as the Spirit of God is also the Spirit of Christ and vice-versa.
KWi am sorry not to agree with you ,but your statement;I do not believe that error significant alters the points in my post as I also stated the same is true of both Jesus and God as the Spirit of God is also the Spirit of Christ and vice-versa.
this is also not correct and should be revised ,to make it more truthful as per the scriptures.
if we do not look and speak the truth ,we are showing that we do not have the light of God.
this is what is not true;;. as the Spirit of God is also the Spirit of Christ and vice-versa.;;
because Christ him self recognize that there are things that only the father knows, your statement is false.
Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2010,17:14) Choosenone, In this case you may be having trouble with the English langage as the “first in the series” is where the series origionates and the “last in the series” is where the series finishes or consumates.
The last I heard God was eternal having no beginnig and no end, Genesis 21:33 and Deuteronomy 33:27.
kerwin,
We were discussing that “Jesus” is is the Alpha and Omega, not God.Blessings.
Quote (chosenone @ April 03 2010,07:03) Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2010,17:14) Choosenone, In this case you may be having trouble with the English langage as the “first in the series” is where the series origionates and the “last in the series” is where the series finishes or consumates.
The last I heard God was eternal having no beginnig and no end, Genesis 21:33 and Deuteronomy 33:27.
kerwin,
We were discussing that “Jesus” is is the Alpha and Omega, not God.Blessings.
COyou right Jesus is also the Alfa and omega,in his own rights that ahs given him.
God is the ultimate Alfa anf omega because at the end all will be of God.1Co 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Quote (chosenone @ April 03 2010,02:03) Quote (kerwin @ April 02 2010,17:14) Choosenone, In this case you may be having trouble with the English language as the “first in the series” is where the series originates and the “last in the series” is where the series finishes or consummates.
The last I heard God was eternal having no beginning and no end, Genesis 21:33 and Deuteronomy 33:27.
kerwin,
We were discussing that “Jesus” is is the Alpha and Omega, not God.Blessings.
That is fine though perhaps you should consider that if there is eternal life then there is no end point even though there is a beginning.Terraricca,
I am not sure I am catching on to your reasoning. I do agree that my initial assessment of 2 Corinthians 3:17 appears to be wrong which means untrue. If I correct that statement to make it true it does not invalidate my reasoning that the scripture in question is not calling Jesus a spiritual being.
Now I think you are stating that because Jesus does not know as much as the Father it does invalidate the fact the Spirit of God is also the Spirit of Jesus. The Spirit reveals to each person what God decides it will reveal to them just as it gives gifts as God apportions. In this way God chose not to reveal all things to his Son even though the Anointed has his Spirit.
Quote (kerwin @ April 03 2010,09:05) Terraricca, I am not sure I am catching on to your reasoning. I do agree that my initial assessment of 2 Corinthians 3:17 appears to be wrong which means untrue. If I correct that statement to make it true it does not invalidate my reasoning that the scripture in question is not calling Jesus a spiritual being.
Now I think you are stating that because Jesus does not know as much as the Father it does invalidate the fact the Spirit of God is also the Spirit of Jesus. The Spirit reveals to each person what God decides it will reveal to them just as it gives gifts as God apportions. In this way God chose not to reveal all things to his Son even though the Anointed has his Spirit.
KWSpirit of God is also the Spirit of Jesus;this is wrong,it should be the other way around;
the Spirit of Christ is also the Spirit of God;Jn 8:28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
Quote (terraricca @ April 03 2010,06:30) Quote (kerwin @ April 03 2010,09:05) Terraricca, I am not sure I am catching on to your reasoning. I do agree that my initial assessment of 2 Corinthians 3:17 appears to be wrong which means untrue. If I correct that statement to make it true it does not invalidate my reasoning that the scripture in question is not calling Jesus a spiritual being.
Now I think you are stating that because Jesus does not know as much as the Father it does invalidate the fact the Spirit of God is also the Spirit of Jesus. The Spirit reveals to each person what God decides it will reveal to them just as it gives gifts as God apportions. In this way God chose not to reveal all things to his Son even though the Anointed has his Spirit.
KWSpirit of God is also the Spirit of Jesus;this is wrong,it should be the other way around;
the Spirit of Christ is also the Spirit of God;Jn 8:28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
I believe you are making the point that God is predominate and should be put in the position of being so. I agree with that. It was my thought that “Spirit of God is also the Spirit of Jesus” is just another way to say “the Spirit of Christ is also the Spirit of God” but perhaps you are correct. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.Quote (kerwin @ April 03 2010,08:53) That is fine though perhaps you should consider that if there is eternal life then there is no end point even though there is a beginning.
kerwin.
The beginning and the ending is that of creation. It began when God created Jesus, (Rev.3:14 Gods creative original.) and all else was created by Jesus through the power of God. At the consummation, the completed creation, (1Cor.15:24-28) when Jesus hands over the kingdom to His Father, and God will be “All in all”. This is the end, the omega. Jesus is the alpha and the omega, “the beginning and the ending”. (of creation)
Of course there is an ending, of “creation”. Of course eternal life will go on, for eternity, it has no end, but creation has a beginning and will have an ending.
This is my understanding of scripture.God Bless, Jerry.
Choosenone,
The Lord turned my mind to our discussion this morning and these are the thoughts that came to me.
Are you stating that Jesus is both the creator and destroyer of creation? If so then I fail how that fits the context of the verses from Revelations you mention.
or
Are you stating that Jesus was the first individual created and the last individual to exist in creation? If so does that not conflict with scripture that states that Jesus is the first born of a new creation for when he was born in the new creation it could be stated he ceased to exist in the old. If that is true then those that believe in him ceased exist after him.
Whatever the case could you please expand on your explanation. Thank you!
Kerwin, I'll do my best to try and explain my understanding.
Quote Are you stating that Jesus is both the creator and destroyer of creation? If so then I fail how that fits the context of the verses from Revelations you mention. I am saying that Jesus, by the power of God, is the creator, the beginner and finisher (not destroyer) of creation. He, Jesus, is the alpha and omega, the first created (Rev.3:14 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:) also (Col.1:15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,). That is why He is called the alpha…the beginning.
And the last, the omega, when creation is completed, that is called the consummation, referred to in 1Cor.15:24-28 (24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)So when the creation is completed, by Jesus, and He hands over the kingdom to His Father (God), that is why He (Jesus) is referred to as the omega, the last (finisher).
Are you stating that Jesus was the first individual created and the last individual to exist in creation?
Yes, He was the first, original, creation (scriptures quoted above). But He was not the last to exist, He was the finisher, the completed, creation. (scripture also above).Now after creation is complete, we will have been perfected, by God, and will be forever with Him, joint heirs with Christ in eternity. (Ro.8:17-21) 17 Yet if children, enjoyers also of an allotment, enjoyers, indeed, of an allotment from God, yet joint enjoyers of Christ's allotment, if so be that we are suffering together, that we should be glorified together also.
18 For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory about to be revealed for us.
19 For the premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God.
20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation
21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.This is my understanding of scripture, I am not infallable, prone to error as anyone else, but what I presently believe.
God Bless, Jerry.
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