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Hi M,
In another thread i said
“Conception is something that women do.Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.Song of Solomon 3:4
It was but a little that I passed from them, but I found him whom my soul loveth: I held him, and would not let him go, until I had brought him into my mother's house, and into the chamber of her that conceived me.Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.Body is of earth but soul and spirit are of the breath of God given to Adam. “
And your reply was
“can a woman concieve without a man or in the case of Mary without God's intervention?
Get over it. you are just arguing to argue now.”So scripturally men are conceived but women conceive.
Nick,
What do you mean by men are conceived but woman conceive??
For a human baby to be conceived there needs to be an egg and a sperm, conception is the fertilization of the egg by the sperm.
Both men and woman are conceived in their mothers womb using the male sperm.
Conception takes place in the mother but both men and woman are conceived.
Hi MK,
Forget human science for a minute.
Do a bible search on CONCEIVE and you will see what I mean.
eg
Genesis 4:1
And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
Genesis 4:17
And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.Genesis 16:4
And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.Genesis 16:5
And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee.Genesis 21:2
For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him.Genesis 25:21
And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.Genesis 29:32
And Leah conceived, and bare a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said, Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction; now therefore my husband will love me.Genesis 29:33
And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Because the LORD hath heard I was hated, he hath therefore given me this son also: and she called his name Simeon.But there are exceptions
Job 3:3
Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived.Song of Solomon 3:4
It was but a little that I passed from them, but I found him whom my soul loveth: I held him, and would not let him go, until I had brought him into my mother's house, and into the chamber of her that conceived me.Looking at this scientifically you would need to consider the science of the writers who most likely saw the woman as being fertile ground and the man as the dispenser of seed. We actually still have that in our language despite it being incorrect to a point. The point being that the man only dispenses a male gamete into the woman where it fertilizes the woman's gamete and the two together would better be called a “seed”. This “seed” otherwise known as a conceptus finds fertile ground in the woman's womb and continues to grow. So we can say that the woman conceives because the conception occurs within the woman.
Kerwin,
It looks like you've been here before….Thinker,
Give this thread a looksy, and then let's chat!Thanks,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 09 2009,09:44) Kerwin, It looks like you've been here before….
Thinker,
Give this thread a looksy, and then let's chat!Thanks,
MandyI have hit on this point in other threads as I find the idea that Jesus was conceived to be contradictory to the idea that he preexisted.
That is why I have tried to get some individuals to explain what their beliefs are in this area. That is where the question of whether Jesus is a hybrid or not comes in. That question also involves the two natures of Jesus as a hybrid has two natures.
I find beliefs that conclude Jesus is God to be confusing because they are contradictory and I wonder how much those who adhere to them can really explain them even to themselves.
Kerwin wrote:
Quote That is why I have tried to get some individuals to explain what their beliefs are in this area. That is where the question of whether Jesus is a hybrid or not comes in. That question also involves the two natures of Jesus as a hybrid has two natures. Greetings Kerwin,
Again, your “hybrid” talk betrays your belief that God and man are totally other. This is not the case for man was created in God's image and after God's likeness. So for God to become a man is for Him to become like Himself. In my thinking a hybrid mixture would have occurred if God had become an animal. Perish the thought! Please keep in mind that when you say “hybrid” I am thinking totally other. God and man are NOT totally other.The “daul nature” theory is the predominate Trinitarian doctrine of our day. And I am sure you are aware that not all Trinitarians adopt the “dual nature” theory. I am included among those who do not adopt the two nature theory.
The Logos Himself was always the true and proper image of God. This was the only “nature” He knew. When He took on flesh He remained the “true and proper” image of God. He was always Preeminent Man.
Preeminent Man = God.
But He became Man in humble form. And in doing this He did NOT adopt a “second” nature.
St. Athanasius, a church father, and also a Trinitarian rejected the “dual nature” theory. He taught that when Christ took on flesh He took on the human condition and not a second “nature”. The “dual nature” theory is double speak. So I ask you to debate me “thethinker” and not Trinitarianism as you know it.
The Logos has always been Man! No “hybrid” mix!
thinker
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Again, your “hybrid” talk betrays your belief that God and man are totally other.
I freely admit I am ignorant of what you believe and I also do go on my previous knowledge of Trinitarian beliefs. Now that you have voiced a difference with those beliefs I have a question. How do you believe God and man are similar?
The Thinker wrote:
Quote The “daul nature” theory is the predominate Trinitarian doctrine of our day. And I am sure you are aware that not all Trinitarians adopt the “dual nature” theory. I am included among those who do not adopt the two nature theory.
I did not stop do consider that some might differ on the issue of whether Jesus’ nature was dual or not. Thank you for letting me know.
I am unfamiliar with St. Athanasius’s teachings.
What is Preeminent Man?
What is the human condition?
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 09 2009,21:01) That is why I have tried to get some individuals to explain what their beliefs are in this area. That is where the question of whether Jesus is a hybrid or not comes in. That question also involves the two natures of Jesus as a hybrid has two natures.
Hi there,I do not believe that Jesus, as a hybrid (son of Man, and Son of God) has two natures.
He was fused in the womb. One, unique son. A new creation. A divine man.
Love,
MandyQuote (thethinker @ Mar. 11 2009,04:28) This is not the case for man was created in God's image and after God's likeness. So for God to become a man is for Him to become like Himself.
Hi Thinker,What do you do with this scripture, then?
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?Just curious,
MandyMandy…………. good point. If we understand man was created in this condition for a specific purpose by LORD, in order for us to learn from the sufferings of the flesh about good and evil effects. We can understand why GOD the Father did this . Our present physical states are only a temporal state and our present bodies were designed for a specific purpose. There is no good reason for the LORD GOD to become a man anyway. IMO
love and peace to you and yours …………………………………………gene
Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 11 2009,12:04) Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 11 2009,04:28) This is not the case for man was created in God's image and after God's likeness. So for God to become a man is for Him to become like Himself.
Hi Thinker,What do you do with this scripture, then?
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?Just curious,
Mandy
Hi Mandy,Good question. But the word for “man” here is “ish” meaning a certain man. The word for mankind generically is “adam.” It says that God is not as a certain man who would change his mind and fail to keep his word.
Speaking prophetically of Christ king David said,
Quote Lord, who may abide in your tabernacle? Who may dwell in your holy hill?….He who swears to his own hurt and will not repent (Psalm. 15:1-4) So in Numbers 23 God meant that He is not as unfaithful man. And if you say “Where is a faithful man?” I will just point you to Jesus. So I will ask you this: Would it be a problem for God to become a creature that is faithful like Himself? Think about it.
thinker
thinker………Jesus said the flesh profits (nothing) so why would GOD choose to become a flesh and blood human being then , seeing the flesh profits nothing. And also since sin came by man then by man sin is atoned for. There is absolute no reason for GOD the FATHER to become a human being. For perfection to walk in perfection serves no purpose for man , but if a 100% man exactly as we are is perfected by the hand of GOD then a purpose and a reason is established for all mankind. We have a perfect (EXAMPLE) in the Anointed Jesus of our future possibilities and this holds out great hope for Us all. The Father is able to perfect us all, and does it by (GRACE) the same GRACE Jesus the man, exactly as US, Had in HIM. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………….gene
Kerwin wrote:
Quote I freely admit I am ignorant of what you believe and I also do go on my previous knowledge of Trinitarian beliefs. Kerwin,
You are the most humble person on this board. You certainly are an example to me. To admit ignorance on a subject is very difficult for most of us. I commend you.Kerwin said:
Quote Now that you have voiced a difference with those beliefs I have a question. How do you believe God and man are similar? I have already explained that man was created in God's image. If man was created in God's image then he cannot be totally other from God. The word “image” necessarily infers that God and man share some similarities. If not, then let's throw out the expression “created in His image.” For now let's talk about only one similarity: God knows. Man also knows. God knows that He knows. Man also knows that he knows.
thethinker said:
Quote I am sure you are aware that not all Trinitarians adopt the “dual nature” theory. I am included among those who do not adopt the two nature theory. Kerwin replied:
Quote I did not stop do consider that some might differ on the issue of whether Jesus’ nature was dual or not. Thank you for letting me know. I am unfamiliar with St. Athanasius’s teachings.
I must make a correction here. It was not Athanasius who believed that Christ had only one nature. It was Apollinarius who believed this. I get Athanasius and Apollinarius confused sometimes. Both were Trinitarians but Apollinarius was condemned as a heretic by the “councils”. They thought that Apollanarius denied the true humanity of the Logos. I want to repeat that I allign myself with Apollinarius.
Kerwin said:
Quote What is Preeminent Man? Preeminent man is both the first cause of man and the chief end of man which is to glorify God. Jesus was both the first cause and the chief end of man.
Kerwin said:
Quote What is the human condition? Are you serious?
thinker
The Thinker wrote:
Quote I have already explained that man was created in God's image. If man was created in God's image then he cannot be totally other from God. The word “image” necessarily infers that God and man share some similarities. If not, then let's throw out the expression “created in His image.” For now let's talk about only one similarity: God knows. Man also knows. God knows that He knows. Man also knows that he knows.
I thought I had understood what you meant but your words brought me to doubt that understanding. I certainly believe that there is one similarity and that is probably the only one God really cares about and that is that man was created like God in true holiness and righteousness. My question was to see if you believe there are other similarities and if so what they are. Your answer though has me mystified since I do not know what you believe both man and God know that is similar.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote I want to repeat that I align myself with Apollinarius.
I understand your correction and your endorsement.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Preeminent man is both the first cause of man and the chief end of man which is to glorify God. Jesus was both the first cause and the chief end of man.
I may seem slow to understand but are you saying that man was created and will end for the glory of God. What do you mean by “chief end”?
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Are you serious?
I can tell you what I believe is the condition of mankind and that is that through Adam and perhaps Eve the whole race was enslaved to sin. I will also go on to say it is through Jesus the Messiah that we are freed from that condition and made servants to righteousness. All of this does not tell me what you believe the human condition is and that is what I wished to learn.
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 12 2009,03:48) thinker………Jesus said the flesh profits (nothing) so why would GOD choose to become a flesh and blood human being then , seeing the flesh profits nothing. And also since sin came by man then by man sin is atoned for. There is absolute no reason for GOD the FATHER to become a human being. For perfection to walk in perfection serves no purpose for man , but if a 100% man exactly as we are is perfected by the hand of GOD then a purpose and a reason is established for all mankind. We have a perfect (EXAMPLE) in the Anointed Jesus of our future possibilities and this holds out great hope for Us all. The Father is able to perfect us all, and does it by (GRACE) the same GRACE Jesus the man, exactly as US, Had in HIM. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………………………………….gene
Gene,
Again, the sword you use cuts both ways. If the flesh profits nothing then Christ's broken body on the cross was meaningless. When Jesus said “the flesh profits nothing” He was correcting the misunderstanding of those who thought that He said that they were to literally eat His flesh. You say that a 100% man was needed to save us. I agree. But if the flesh profits nothing in the way you think then there is no new covenant. For the new covenant is Christ's flesh and blood.thinker
Kerwin wrote:
Quote I thought I had understood what you meant but your words brought me to doubt that understanding. I certainly believe that there is one similarity and that is probably the only one God really cares about and that is that man was created like God in true holiness and righteousness. My question was to see if you believe there are other similarities and if so what they are. Your answer though has me mystified since I do not know what you believe both man and God know that is similar. Kerwin,
My example from knowing may have been a poor one. There are many similarities between God and man. They are:
PERSONALITY
SPIRITUALITY
RATIONALITY
MORALITY
AUTHORITY
CREATIVITY
KNOWLEDGEI will discuss any of these with you.
Thinker said:
Quote Preeminent man is both the first cause of man and the chief end of man which is to glorify God. Jesus was both the first cause and the chief end of man. Kerwin replied:
Quote I may seem slow to understand but are you saying that man was created and will end for the glory of God. What do you mean by “chief end”? You are not slow. I assume too much. The expression “chief end” is from the Westminster Confession and means “chief purpose”. Christ is preeminent man, that is, He is both the first cause and the chief purpose of man.
Quote He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over every creature [or man]. For by Him were all things created….All things were created by Him and for Him The expression “image” along with the term “firstborn” means that Jesus is man the first cause of man. And all things were created for Him. So He is the chief purpose for man's existence.
I believe that Jesus had only one nature. I believe that He became in bodily form what He was for all eternity. Hebrews says that He became like His brethren. So man was Christ's brother before He took flesh. This means that He was always “Man.”
thinker
Thinker ………Jesus said the Flesh profits nothing I didn't, Jesus was meaning that as a general statement , His sacrifice of his life was the point of profit to us not his flesh, his flesh was simply attached to him as with us, And we will some day shed it as He did. Flesh is simply a tempary housing but we have a permanent house to be given to us by GOD the FATHER. The flesh in and of itself profits nothings.
Thinker how could Jesus have always been man , when scripture says GOD created man of the Dust of the Earth, while i also believe Jesus as well as Us were always in the Plan and will of GOD from the foundations of the earth, that is not to say we or Jesus always preexisted as some form of beings though. In the mind of GOD yes in the (manifestation) no until we were born as with Jesus. Like Peter said. Then we came into being. IMO
love and peace to you and yours…………………………………gene
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