Conception

[Not3in1]

Jodi,
OK, it's after midnight, but I'll take a stab at some of these things that you presented.

Quote

This is saying that Jesus had to be just like us in order to pay for our sins. This is why to say that Jesus was half God, destroys our salvation, because otherwise he could not pay for our sins.

I've also heard it said from our Trinitarian brother's that if Jesus wasn't God – that also destroys our salvation.  For only GOD could pay our debt!  I guess we all have our ideas, too bad they are so different from one another.  Again, we are all reading from the same book, under the same guidance of the holy Spirit, yet we come to different conclusions.  Go figure, right?

I guess our salvation is secure whether God came himself, sent his very own Son (literal “son” as we understand the term), or if he sent a human being who became his son through obedience, OR if he sent a preexisting son who morphed into a human, or a son who was an angel who became a man.  In any case, there is a son given who champions our salvation!  Right?  I guess we can take our pick!?

This is why I grow weary of discussing the subject.  There are too many paths to choose from – all from the same set of scriptures!!  Quite honestly, I see your line of reasoning very clearly.  I can also see Keith's.  I can see Nick's.  I can see my own ideas pan out in scripture…..

Quote

There are no scriptures that elude us to believe that Jesus was anything other then a human being, as a matter of fact the scriptures declare that he was a man and that he had to be a man.

I don't agree, but it would do me no good to quote all the scriptures I have to prove why.  The reason is that these scriptures we share are up for personal interpretation.  I do wonder though, if Jesus was a mere human being……..God sure through a monkey wrench in where there didn't need to be one.  You know, the whole virgin birth; the whole Spirit overshadowing Mary thing.  Joseph could have surely had the honor's and fathered the child.  God could have still kept Jesus sinless through the annointing of holy Spirit – right?  

Quote

Mt 16:16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

I love this verse.  Notice how Jesus answered Peter.  Is there any significance to his reply do you think?

Quote

Mt 26:63 But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” Joh 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Do you think that they folks that were being addressed in these scriptures thought Jesus was the “Son” of God because he was sinless?  Or do you believe they thought he was claiming the relativeness of God?  I believe it was the later that stirred them.  Otherwise, they, themselves, could claim to be sons of God as well.

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Jesus Christ proved to be the Son of God, not by when he was born from Mary's womb at his birth, but because of the works of his Father that he did later in his life, the miracles and signs, and of course the great finish of being raised from the dead.

Perhaps.  But what of the gifts of the Kings that followed the Star.  What of the host of angels singing at Jesus' birth?  What of the fact that Jesus has no physical father except for God himself!  

Quote

Jesus is the Son of God because he is the Christ, not because he was part God, but the promised Messiah, David's seed.

You have justified another way of understanding “son”.  But the gospels are so simple a child could understand.  Joseph was not Jesus' Daddy….who was?  A vague sperm doner?

Everyone is so worried about Jesus being exactly like us or we can't follow him!  Why couldn't we follow him if he was a combination of his parents – a divine man?  I got news for most people…..we can't follow him now, can we?  Who here among us is PERFECT, and without sin?  No one!

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The Messiah is not a person born half god, but a person of the seed of David anointed with God's Holy Spirit, in such away that keeps him sinless.

Forgive me then, but Jesus could have been anybody!  God could have used anybody in this capacity.  Shoot, Mary and Jo didn't have to wait to get jiggy, they could have conceived Jesus on their own.  God could have still kept him sinless – right?

Quote

Jesus was Son of God, because he was a sinless man.

You don't think that God could have kept Moses sinless if he wanted to?
Yet Mo was a servant over the house of God – Jesus is a Son (nothing is mentioned about the fact that he gets the honor of being the son over the house because he is sinless!)

Quote

Mandy this is clearly what the scriptures teach.

Well, it is obviously clear to you, Gene, and Adam.  But it is not clear to me.  Remember, I'm the one who brings chips and dip to the table, so it could be that I am not as advanced as you all are.  But when God says Jesus is his only begotten Son – and Jesus had no earthly father – I put 2 and 2 together.

I appreciate the chat and your thoughts, Jodi.
Goodnight all,
Mandy

[Jodi]

Hi Mandy,

I just read your first point and want to stop you right there with what you said about Trinitarians believing that Jesus had to be God in order for Jesus to pay for our sins.

I don't believe this is a matter of opinion but strictly a matter of what the scriptures specifically say-

Ephesians 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Galatians 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.

In order for us to be saved, Jesus had to be a man born under the law, not a god or a half god, but a man under the law.

1 Cor 15:12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.

Jesus was raised from the dead, not the God dead, or the half god sort of dead, but the dead of MAN. Notice how the death of Jesus is one and the same as the death of the rest of mankind, this is because Jesus was strictly a man. We have hope that as Jesus was a MAN RAISED, we to will be raised. What would it matter to us if a God or half god be raised? Our hope is in the fact that Jesus was a human being who was raised from the dead, because that gives us the hope that we too will be raised.

Mandy this could not be clearer IMO,

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This tells us specifically that Jesus had to be a MAN as Adam was a man. God saw fit according to his will that He would redeem man, through MAN!

Jesus is the firstfruit of many according to his resurrection, he is not a one of a kind half god, but one of many!

[Jodi]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Dec. 22 2008,00:46)

Jodi, OK, it's after midnight, but I'll take a stab at some of these things that you presented. Quote This is saying that Jesus had to be just like us in order to pay for our sins. This is why to say that Jesus was half God, destroys our salvation, because otherwise he could not pay for our sins. I've also heard it said from our Trinitarian brother's that if Jesus wasn't God – that also destroys our salvation. For only GOD could pay our debt! I guess we all have our ideas, too bad they are so different from one another. Again, we are all reading from the same book, under the same guidance of the holy Spirit, yet we come to different conclusions. Go figure, right? I guess our salvation is secure whether God came himself, sent his very own Son (literal “son” as we understand the term), or if he sent a human being who became his son through obedience, OR if he sent a preexisting son who morphed into a human, or a son who was an angel who became a man. In any case, there is a son given who champions our salvation! Right? I guess we can take our pick!? This is why I grow weary of discussing the subject. There are too many paths to choose from – all from the same set of scriptures!! Quite honestly, I see your line of reasoning very clearly. I can also see Keith's. I can see Nick's. I can see my own ideas pan out in scripture….. Quote There are no scriptures that elude us to believe that Jesus was anything other then a human being, as a matter of fact the scriptures declare that he was a man and that he had to be a man. I don't agree, but it would do me no good to quote all the scriptures I have to prove why. The reason is that these scriptures we share are up for personal interpretation. I do wonder though, if Jesus was a mere human being……..God sure through a monkey wrench in where there didn't need to be one. You know, the whole virgin birth; the whole Spirit overshadowing Mary thing. Joseph could have surely had the honor's and fathered the child. God could have still kept Jesus sinless through the annointing of holy Spirit – right? Quote Mt 16:16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” I love this verse. Notice how Jesus answered Peter. Is there any significance to his reply do you think? Quote Mt 26:63 But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” Joh 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. Do you think that they folks that were being addressed in these scriptures thought Jesus was the “Son” of God because he was sinless? Or do you believe they thought he was claiming the relativeness of God? I believe it was the later that stirred them. Otherwise, they, themselves, could claim to be sons of God as well. Quote Jesus Christ proved to be the Son of God, not by when he was born from Mary's womb at his birth, but because of the works of his Father that he did later in his life, the miracles and signs, and of course the great finish of being raised from the dead. Perhaps. But what of the gifts of the Kings that followed the Star. What of the host of angels singing at Jesus' birth? What of the fact that Jesus has no physical father except for God himself! Quote Jesus is the Son of God because he is the Christ, not because he was part God, but the promised Messiah, David's seed. You have justified another way of understanding “son”. But the gospels are so simple a child could understand. Joseph was not Jesus' Daddy….who was? A vague sperm doner? Everyone is so worried about Jesus being exactly like us or we can't follow him! Why couldn't we follow him if he was a combination of his parents – a divine man? I got news for most people…..we can't follow him now, can we? Who here among us is PERFECT, and without sin? No one! Quote The Messiah is not a person born half god, but a person of the seed of David anointed with God's Holy Spirit, in such away that keeps him sinless. Forgive me then, but Jesus could have been anybody! God could have used anybody in this capacity. Shoot, Mary and Jo didn't have to wait to get jiggy, they could have conceived Jesus on their own. God could have still kept him sinless – right? Quote Jesus was Son of God, because he was a sinless man. You don't think that God could have kept Moses sinless if he wanted to? Yet Mo was a servant over the house of God – Jesus is a Son (nothing is mentioned about the fact that he gets the honor of being the son over the house because he is sinless!) Quote Mandy this is clearly what the scriptures teach. Well, it is obviously clear to you, Gene, and Adam. But it is not clear to me. Remember, I'm the one who brings chips and dip to the table, so it could be that I am not as advanced as you all are. But when God says Jesus is his only begotten Son – and Jesus had no earthly father – I put 2 and 2 together. I appreciate the chat and your thoughts, Jodi. Goodnight all, Mandy

Mandy your point two, let's address that.

God is one of a kind, the angels are said to be son's of God also. God does not physically make people like him, but He brings His creation into thinking like He does.

The book of Luke links Jesus as being from Adam and Adam being the son of God, how do you deal with that under your understanding?

Mandy, you are speaking of a 'literal son' IN HUMAN TERMS, this is a great error in your thinki
ng. IN HUMAN TERMS, a literal son comes from two people a male and a female after having intercourse. Do you believe God had sex with Mary? God is actually neither male or female. The term Father, is YHWH's way of relating to us IN OUR TERMS, so we can understand what sort of relationship YHWH desires to have with us.

[Jodi]

Hi Mandy,

YHWH created man in his own image, MALE AND FEMALE. Genesis 1:27

YHWH is not a male, you are thinking of God being the Father of Jesus in human terms, and not according to how our Creator has chosen to relate to us.

[meerkat]

Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 23 2008,07:30)

Jesus was raised from the dead, not the God dead, or the half god sort of dead, but the dead of MAN. Notice how the death of Jesus is one and the same as the death of the rest of mankind, this is because Jesus was strictly a man. We have hope that as Jesus was a MAN RAISED, we to will be raised. What would it matter to us if a God or half god be raised? Our hope is in the fact that Jesus was a human being who was raised from the dead, because that gives us the hope that we too will be raised. Mandy this could not be clearer IMO, 20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. This tells us specifically that Jesus had to be a MAN as Adam was a man. God saw fit according to his will that He would redeem man, through MAN! Jesus is the firstfruit of many according to his resurrection, he is not a one of a kind half god, but one of many!

Jodi,

I believe that this is an important point.

The only hope we have as carnal man to be raised is that Jesus as a physical man {made like us} did have the Spirit of God guiding him on a spiritual level and was raised by that Spirit – in like manner we will be raised too – if Jesus was not physically strictly carnal the same as us his being raised because he had some added feature negates our hope of being raised because we do not have that added feature that was integral to Jesus being raised. God is a spirit and Jesus was the Son of God in the spiritual sense – anointed by the Spirit – we are told flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit.

We have the same advantage that Jesus had while being totally flesh we can be led/guided by the Spirit just as he was.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 23 2008,06:16)

Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 23 2008,07:30) Jesus was raised from the dead, not the God dead, or the half god sort of dead, but the dead of MAN. Notice how the death of Jesus is one and the same as the death of the rest of mankind, this is because Jesus was strictly a man. We have hope that as Jesus was a MAN RAISED, we to will be raised. What would it matter to us if a God or half god be raised? Our hope is in the fact that Jesus was a human being who was raised from the dead, because that gives us the hope that we too will be raised. Mandy this could not be clearer IMO, 20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.   This tells us specifically that Jesus had to be a MAN as Adam was a man. God saw fit according to his will that He would redeem man, through MAN! Jesus is the firstfruit of many according to his resurrection, he is not a one of a kind half god, but one of many! Jodi, I believe that this is an important point. The only hope we have as carnal man to be raised is that Jesus as a physical man {made like us} did have the Spirit of God guiding him on a spiritual level and was raised by that Spirit – in like manner we will be raised too – if Jesus was not physically strictly carnal the same as us his being raised because he had some added feature negates our hope of being raised because we do not have that added feature that was integral to Jesus being raised. God is a spirit and Jesus was the Son of God in the spiritual sense – anointed by the Spirit – we are told flesh is flesh    and spirit is spirit. We have the same advantage that Jesus had while being totally flesh we can be led/guided by the Spirit just as he was.

Hi MK

Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 23 2008,06:16)

We have the same advantage that Jesus had while being totally flesh we can be led/guided by the Spirit just as he was.

Really? Do we have the Spirit without measure?

WJ

[Not3in1]

Good morning, Jodi.

Quote

In order for us to be saved, Jesus had to be a man born under the law, not a god or a half god, but a man under the law.

God could have found any man “under law” to do the job. Even Mary and Jo's bio son would have done nicely.

Quote

This tells us specifically that Jesus had to be a MAN as Adam was a man. God saw fit according to his will that He would redeem man, through MAN!

But Jesus is not a man as Adam was a man. Adam is from the earth, Jesus is from heaven.

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:48
As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:49
And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

Quote

Jesus is the firstfruit of many according to his resurrection, he is not a one of a kind half god, but one of many!

Is the term “firstfruit” reserved soley for resurrection? Is there any other place and context in which it is used?

[Not3in1]

Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 23 2008,06:08)

Hi Mandy, YHWH created man in his own image, MALE AND FEMALE. Genesis 1:27 YHWH is not a male, you are thinking of God being the Father of Jesus in human terms, and not according to how our Creator has chosen to relate to us.

Good point, sis.
A perspective I haven't yet thought of.

It's a disappointing thought, I confess.  It just means I have to yet give up another ideal that I hold dear….that God is my Father (in the sense that I understand fatherhood).

Why does God allow us to understand concepts the way we understand them, and then they do not apply to him (or her, or it)?  More confusion…….

[Not3in1]

Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 23 2008,06:00)

God is actually neither male or female. The term Father, is YHWH's way of relating to us IN OUR TERMS, so we can understand what sort of relationship YHWH desires to have with us.

I confess, this actually makes me have a lump in the back of my throat…..

God set up rules for our living that do not apply to him? Yet we are to relate to him under terms which do not apply to him? We are to think of him as a Father (a male), and yet he is not that at all.

Sigh…..

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Dec. 23 2008,06:43)

Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 23 2008,06:00) God is actually neither male or female. The term Father, is YHWH's way of relating to us IN OUR TERMS, so we can understand what sort of relationship YHWH desires to have with us. I confess, this actually makes me have a lump in the back of my throat….. God set up rules for our living that do not apply to him?  Yet we are to relate to him under terms which do not apply to him?  We are to think of him as a Father (a male), and yet he is not that at all. Sigh…..

Mandy

This should not cause a lump in your throat.

Remember God can be everything to us.

He can be our Brother our Husband our Father our God our Counselor, Etc, Etc.

You are on the right track concerning Jesus conception in that he was not a mere man.

I appreciate that you have exalted Jesus higher than any other and give him do credit for not just being a puppet on a string.

Blessings Keith

[meerkat]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 23 2008,08:29)

Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 23 2008,06:16) Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 23 2008,07:30) Jesus was raised from the dead, not the God dead, or the half god sort of dead, but the dead of MAN. Notice how the death of Jesus is one and the same as the death of the rest of mankind, this is because Jesus was strictly a man. We have hope that as Jesus was a MAN RAISED, we to will be raised. What would it matter to us if a God or half god be raised? Our hope is in the fact that Jesus was a human being who was raised from the dead, because that gives us the hope that we too will be raised. Mandy this could not be clearer IMO, 20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. This tells us specifically that Jesus had to be a MAN as Adam was a man. God saw fit according to his will that He would redeem man, through MAN! Jesus is the firstfruit of many according to his resurrection, he is not a one of a kind half god, but one of many! Jodi, I believe that this is an important point. The only hope we have as carnal man to be raised is that Jesus as a physical man {made like us} did have the Spirit of God guiding him on a spiritual level and was raised by that Spirit – in like manner we will be raised too – if Jesus was not physically strictly carnal the same as us his being raised because he had some added feature negates our hope of being raised because we do not have that added feature that was integral to Jesus being raised. God is a spirit and Jesus was the Son of God in the spiritual sense – anointed by the Spirit – we are told flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit. We have the same advantage that Jesus had while being totally flesh we can be led/guided by the Spirit just as he was. Hi MK Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 23 2008,06:16) We have the same advantage that Jesus had while being totally flesh we can be led/guided by the Spirit just as he was. Really? Do we have the Spirit without measure? WJ

WJ

No we do not have the fulness of the Spirit – that is why Jesus was the Messiah/ first fruits, but yes we have the same Spirit that was in Jesus in us when we have faith and are “born again” of the Spirit – Jesus is the “firstborn” from the dead

Quote

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 23 2008,07:44)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 23 2008,08:29) Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 23 2008,06:16) Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 23 2008,07:30) Jesus was raised from the dead, not the God dead, or the half god sort of dead, but the dead of MAN. Notice how the death of Jesus is one and the same as the death of the rest of mankind, this is because Jesus was strictly a man. We have hope that as Jesus was a MAN RAISED, we to will be raised. What would it matter to us if a God or half god be raised? Our hope is in the fact that Jesus was a human being who was raised from the dead, because that gives us the hope that we too will be raised. Mandy this could not be clearer IMO, 20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.   This tells us specifically that Jesus had to be a MAN as Adam was a man. God saw fit according to his will that He would redeem man, through MAN! Jesus is the firstfruit of many according to his resurrection, he is not a one of a kind half god, but one of many! Jodi, I believe that this is an important point. The only hope we have as carnal man to be raised is that Jesus as a physical man {made like us} did have the Spirit of God guiding him on a spiritual level and was raised by that Spirit – in like manner we will be raised too – if Jesus was not physically strictly carnal the same as us his being raised because he had some added feature negates our hope of being raised because we do not have that added feature that was integral to Jesus being raised. God is a spirit and Jesus was the Son of God in the spiritual sense – anointed by the Spirit – we are told flesh is flesh    and spirit is spirit. We have the same advantage that Jesus had while being totally flesh we can be led/guided by the Spirit just as he was. Hi MK Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 23 2008,06:16) We have the same advantage that Jesus had while being totally flesh we can be led/guided by the Spirit just as he was. Really? Do we have the Spirit without measure? WJ WJ No we do not have the fulness of the Spirit – that is why Jesus was the Messiah/ first fruits, but yes we have the same Spirit that was in Jesus in us when we have faith and are “born again” of the Spirit – Jesus is the “firstborn” from the dead Quote Col 1:18  And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.

Hi MK

But if he had the Spirit without measure then he did have an advantage over us.

Correct?

If he was born sinless then he had an advantage over us.

Correct?

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Are we not all born sinless?
Foetuses and infants do not sin do they?
Likewise inborn lusts do not conceive as sin till we submit to them.

Jas1
13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

[meerkat]

WJ

How did Jesus overcome if he was born that way? ………. if you look at an overall picture it is 1st natural Adam/flesh/sin/death …… there is testing/adversity/overcoming ….. then there is spirit/resurrection/life

Scripture says God chose/anointed Jesus as the Messiah

Scripture also says that Jesus was flesh

G4561
σάρξ
sarx
sarx
Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): – carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).

We are also told that flesh does not inherit the kingdom of God

[meerkat]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2008,10:02)

Hi WJ, Are we not all born sinless? Foetuses and infants do not sin do they? Likewise inborn lusts do not conceive as sin till we submit to them. Jas1 13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Yes Nick I agree,

it is the carnal nature that leads to sin …….. Jesus did have a carnal nature (he came in the flesh) and overcame that carnal nature by the Spirit.

The carnal nature does not inherit the kingdom of God.

[NickHassan]

Hi MK,
Jesus became a clean vessel with the help of his Father.
Then he was filled at the Jordan.
John 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

[NickHassan]

Hi mk,
He submitted to baptism but was already washed by the Word.
Mt3
13Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

14But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
He was given the Spirit without measure [jn3]but we are urged to seek grace unto the fulness of the Spirit too that we can do greater things even than he did.

Ephesians 3:19
And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Ephesians 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2008,08:16)

Hi WJ, He was given the Spirit without measure [jn3]but we are urged to seek grace unto the fulness of the Spirit too that we can do greater things even than he did. Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Hi NH

Look at the context of Ehp 3:19 and you will see Paul is talking about the believers corporately (whole family in heaven and earth vrs 15).

The “body” will come to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

But no man will ever have “the Spirit without measure” for that Spirit proceeds from the head, we are merely a body part.

The “Body” of Christ will do greater works because Christ is in all who are in the body worldwide.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 23 2008,08:07)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2008,10:02) Hi WJ, Are we not all born sinless? Foetuses and infants do not sin do they? Likewise inborn lusts do not conceive as sin till we submit to them. Jas1 13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Yes Nick I agree, it is the carnal nature that leads to sin …….. Jesus did have a carnal nature (he came in the flesh) and overcame that carnal nature by the Spirit. The carnal nature does not inherit the kingdom of God.

MK

Where is the scripture that says Christ had a carnal nature?

WJ

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