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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 12 2008,09:45) Hi not3,
So conception relates to the body.
It does not relate to spiritual beings without bodies
Our limited understanding of conception is that it is on a physical level, yes.Conceiving spiritual beings without bodies sounds a bit Star Trekky to me. The bible may make mention that this occured, but I am doubtful to believe it. I'm sure it was translated incorrectly. It doesn't fit with the tenor of the message, imo.
Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 10 2008,10:45) Hi Adam, Where I am at the moment is that as well as being the son of David (which has a loophole that Jesus could be the adopted son of Joseph and so, son of David) he is of the seed of David
John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh
G4690
σπέρμα
sperma
sper'-mah
From G4687; somethng sown, that is, seed (including the male “sperm”); by implication offspring; specifically a remnant (figuratively as if kept over for planting): – issue, seed.The Y chomosome can only come from the male – so mary can not give Jesus his maleness so either Jesus has his maleness from the Holy Spirit and is half divine and half flesh or he has a human father (Joseph)
Hi Meerkat,Why couldn't the Holy Spirit produce in Mary a human sperm to fertilize Mary's egg?
This would not make him half divine half human, but simply human.
God uses the same building materials to make such things as cells, and genes, I think it would be rather easy for God through the Holy Spirit to reconfigure materials within Mary to create a sperm.
Regardless of virgin birth or not, Jesus IS of the seed of David through Mary, isn't he not?
Here is a random thought, knowing that anything is truly possible through the power of the Holy Spirit, what if God chose to have Mary become pregnant as a virgin to show us that Jesus was born through His Will alone, but she was implanted with Joseph's sperm?
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 16 2008,11:08) Why couldn't the Holy Spirit produce in Mary a human sperm to fertilize Mary's egg? This would not make him half divine half human, but simply human.
Why not just a regular sperm?My answer: because that wouldn't make Jesus God's Son. It would make Jesus some random, human son.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Dec. 15 2008,16:16) Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 16 2008,11:08) Why couldn't the Holy Spirit produce in Mary a human sperm to fertilize Mary's egg? This would not make him half divine half human, but simply human.
Why not just a regular sperm?My answer: because that wouldn't make Jesus God's Son. It would make Jesus some random, human son.
Hi Sis,I believe Jesus to be God's Son, not because he is genetically different from us, on the contrary he was fully human, therefore it had to be a human sperm given to Mary's egg. Jesus is God's Son, just like in due time we will ALL be God's children, EXACTLY like Jesus IS, and that is because we will be without sin as he is.
Jesus is God's Son because of God's Will to create a righteous man! This does not make Jesus a random human son, but a sinless Son of God. God predestined Jesus from the beginning of time, He knew that Adam would fail and loose his inheritance to rule the earth, and that a second Adam would take over. Notice in Luke 3 we are told that Adam is son of God, but when he sinned he was no longer son of God because sin is not of God and is not the way to life, but rather leads to death.
Glad to see you back Mandy. I too keep popping in and out, and when I do I am always very happy when I see you here.
Hi Jodi,
So good to see you, too! I look for you when I'm here…..
I have a couple thoughts on your post but I need to run my daughter to basketball practice (in the ice and snow – good grief).
Later,
MandyQuote (Jodi @ Dec. 16 2008,11:08) Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 10 2008,10:45) Hi Adam, Where I am at the moment is that as well as being the son of David (which has a loophole that Jesus could be the adopted son of Joseph and so, son of David) he is of the seed of David
John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh
G4690
σπέρμα
sperma
sper'-mah
From G4687; somethng sown, that is, seed (including the male “sperm”); by implication offspring; specifically a remnant (figuratively as if kept over for planting): – issue, seed.The Y chomosome can only come from the male – so mary can not give Jesus his maleness so either Jesus has his maleness from the Holy Spirit and is half divine and half flesh or he has a human father (Joseph)
Hi Meerkat,Why couldn't the Holy Spirit produce in Mary a human sperm to fertilize Mary's egg?
This would not make him half divine half human, but simply human.
God uses the same building materials to make such things as cells, and genes, I think it would be rather easy for God through the Holy Spirit to reconfigure materials within Mary to create a sperm.
Regardless of virgin birth or not, Jesus IS of the seed of David through Mary, isn't he not?
Here is a random thought, knowing that anything is truly possible through the power of the Holy Spirit, what if God chose to have Mary become pregnant as a virgin to show us that Jesus was born through His Will alone, but she was implanted with Joseph's sperm?
Jodi,This is something I posted in the virgin birth thread
Quote Nick, You have quoted scripture saying on 2 or 3 witness everything shall be established – we have prophecy in OT, and NT confirmation about the SEED of David being used.
Psalm 132:11 The LORD has sworn in truth to David; he will not turn from it: “I will set upon your throne the fruit of your body.
Jeremiah 23:5-6 “Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
2Sa 7:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took [it] from Saul, whom I put away before thee.Jhn 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
For the Virgin birth we have 1 suspect prophecy of virgin birth in the OT and only the NT saying there is fulfillment in the gospels which also have suspect trinity baptsimal doctrine inserted.
What I am thinking of is there is no direct prophecy for a virgin birth and only NT fulfillments (that could have 1st,2nd,3rd century Greek and Roman pagan belief influences in it), we seem to be told that there will be babylonian deceptions in the apostate church – the trinity is a pagan doctrine, also the babylonians insisted that the sons of their gods were virgin born, the Roman Catholic Church is very insistant that the virgin Mary was immaculate even after Jesus birth (perpetual virgin) – it seems to me that there is a heavy concern for absolute physical sexual purity i.e Joseph could not be the father, and I am wondering if that is because of the influence of pagan religion in the first few centuries.
I think that if God had wanted to show us that he was in charge of a virgin birth he would have given us the prophecy for it, Also I thought that it was the resurrection from the dead was when Jesus was declared the son of God, Rom 1:4
I am wondering if the early church was mixing the spiritual – Jesus was raised by the Spirit and the firstborn of all (spiritual) creation and wanting to make him the physical son of God.
In 1Cr 15:35But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Cr 15:36[Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Cr 15:37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:
1Cr 15:38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Cr 15:39All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.
1Cr 15:40[There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.
1Cr 15:41[There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.
1Cr 15:42So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Cr 15:43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Cr 15:44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Cr 15:45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
1Cr 15:46Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Cr 15:47The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
1Cr 15:48As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.
1Cr 15:49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Cr 15:50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.This says first natural and then spiritual.
Jesus is the physical seed of David and the physical heir of Davids throne and also priest, and also the Son of God spiritual king and priest.
Hi jodi,
Of course such a situation does not exclude the creation of that genetic contribution.
No men were involved.Quote (Not3in1 @ Dec. 16 2008,11:16) Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 16 2008,11:08) Why couldn't the Holy Spirit produce in Mary a human sperm to fertilize Mary's egg? This would not make him half divine half human, but simply human.
Why not just a regular sperm?My answer: because that wouldn't make Jesus God's Son. It would make Jesus some random, human son.
Mandy,There is prophecy in the OT that limits the birth of the Messiah to a particular line, maybe someone can give us those prophecies??
I haven't time to search at the moment.
Nasty, corrupt men …… God can't use any of those, can he? – However, I thought he inspired this to be written first natural ………. then spiritual ……..
Hi mk,
So the flesh of Adam came from the already created dirt.
No men involved yet we are all of his type.
Natural men, sons of Adam.Nick ,
Sorry for the sarcasm b4 – but really why is man not meant to be used in Jesus conception if he was a natural fleshly man?? And Jesus was also a natural man in the flesh – he was raised by the Spirit of God.
1 John 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
flesh = G4561
σάρξ
sarx
sarx
Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): – carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).Nick,
I have given my questions/suggestions/thoughts and scriptures relating to the conception of Jesus, not sure what more I can give you.
Hi Sis Meerkat,
Well on.. you are going in right track on this interesting topic. I am also in agrrement with you. I also feel there is no necessity of virgin birth of Jesus if he was fully man and from the seed of David. Yes he shared our carnal nature in fact Paul writes that God sent His son in the likeness of our sinful flesh (Rom 8:3). I feel there is no necessity of Jesus immaculate birth. If so where is the question of Jesus being tempted and without sin. It will be mere mockery on the part of Christianity.Please think over on these lines.
Blessings
AdamHi GM,
Does the NT lie about Mary?
Where is the useful evidence of this corruption being introduced?Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 16 2008,15:58) Hi Sis Meerkat,
Well on.. you are going in right track on this interesting topic. I am also in agrrement with you. I also feel there is no necessity of virgin birth of Jesus if he was fully man and from the seed of David. Yes he shared our carnal nature in fact Paul writes that God sent His son in the likeness of our sinful flesh (Rom 8:3). I feel there is no necessity of Jesus immaculate birth. If so where is the question of Jesus being tempted and without sin. It will be mere mockery on the part of Christianity.Please think over on these lines.
Blessings
Adam
Adam,Thank you, I am getting the feeling that Nick is not actually reading and thinking about what I am writing he is wanting to debate and not face doing any actual research of his own and its just feeling a bit unproductive.
I'll wait and see if Mandy/Jodi have something to contribute.
Somewhere else in the Scriptures it says that God reveals his will to his prophets – If he was planning an immaculate conception/birth wouldn't there be be clear prophecy about it so that when it happened it would have been obvious fulfilled prophecy?
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