Conception

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene …..if you look up the word (through) you will find it can mean (For) as easily as (through). I have explained to you before and gave scriptures that showed GOD said HE created every thing by His self ALONE no one helped or assisted HIM. He said He did it by His self. You either believe what GOD himself said or not. What you put up before was yours and others views of what you perceive scripture to say, but not absolute clear statement of any kind exists , and wouldn't you think that something as important a Jesus' preexistence would be talked about in scripture by all the apostles and not just some vague wording that can be taken several ways. Why didn't Peter come out and say it, instead of saying Jesus was (Foreordained) (BUT) was (Manifested) in Our time. Why would He have said it like that if Jesus preexisted as a being before his berth on earth. There is no absolute statement the backs up Jesus' preexistences or Him being Almighty GOD Himself. IMO

love to you and yours………………gene

[Tiffany]

Gen You know,it really does not matter what I am going to put down for you. You have made up your mind, so be it. In do time you will see. I did too.
Irene

[gollamudi]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 07 2008,04:29)

To All…….Jesus was simply a man who was foreordained by God to be the first human born to completely image Him. Does it not say “for (THY SEED) shall bruise His head, God here plainly shows His plan of causing a human being to bruise the head of Satan. He did not preexist except in the plan and will of God. God did not take an already perfect being and then perfect Him again. God brought forth a flesh and blood son and with His spirit perfected Him. No reincarnation of any kind. Jesus was not almighty GOD incarnated in flesh. If we listen to Jesus words He makes that plain, saying He could do (NOTHING) of Himself, hardly the word of a GOD MAN, and again it says He (LEARNED) obedience by the things he suffered, again hardly a GOD Man, it says He (Grew in stature and Knowledge of GOD). He told us to overcome the Way he did saying “to him that overcomes the way i did”. How could he say that if he were already a preexistent perfect being . It plainly says “there is one God and One Mediator between man and God the (MAN) Jesus Christ”, not the preexistent being Jesus Christ. All these false teachings were added by False Christianity over the years which is what apostatized the Church. Read 2 Ths 2..> this man of sin  LIE is the creation of Jesus who sits in the temple of God as very GOD HIMSELF , and this lie will to abolished at his return by Jesus Himself just as it say it will be. There is no human being who is worshiped as God Himself except Jesus so only Jesus could fulfill that. Man has always wanted to make man a God from the earliest of pagan writings man wanted to be perceived as a GOD. If we believe what Jesus says about LORD we will know that, “HEAR O ISRAEL, THE LORD OUR GOD IS (ONE)LORD. Believe what he says and you won't have a problem know who the Father is and who Jesus is. imo peace and love to all……………….gene

Hi brother Gene,
That is a wonderful post on 'Real Jesus' the man made in the image of God but not any incarnated God in the flesh. One more thing to add to that post; Real Jesus never claimed himself as God or incarnated God during his earthly ministry. But the Anti-christ who is going to come will fulfill all the claims of being God and incarnation of God. Jesus rightly said “you don't believe me since I have come in my Father's name. If another comes in his own name you will believe him” (Jn 5:43).

So people be cautious as our brother Gene rightly quotes; whoever wants to make Jesus God or incarnated God they may become the people of Anti-christ and not the people of Real Christ. Please see 2 Thess 2:

3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For unless the apostasy comes first and the lawless one is revealed, 3 the one doomed to perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god and object of worship, so as to seat himself in the temple of God, 4 claiming that he is a god–
5 do you not recall that while I was still with you I told you these things?
6 And now you know what is restraining, 5 that he may be revealed in his time.
7  For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. But the one who restrains is to do so only for the present, until he is removed from the scene.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord (Jesus) will kill with the breath of his mouth and render powerless by the manifestation of his coming,
9 the one whose coming springs from the power of Satan in every mighty deed and in signs and wonders that lie,
10 and in every wicked deceit for those who are perishing because they have not accepted the love of truth so that they may be saved.
11 Therefore, God is sending them a deceiving power so that they may believe the lie,
12 that all who have not believed the truth but have approved wrongdoing may be condemned.

Let us honour our one and only God the Father on this earth because there is no other God besides Him.

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

[pulivarthy]

gene & adam,

psalm 4:2 How long, O men, will you turn my glory into shame [ Or you dishonor my Glorious One ] ? How long will you love delusions and seek false gods [ Or seek lies ] ? Selah
john 17:24 Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

you both are forgetting many scriptures in the bible on preexistance of Jesus and going after your suppositions and beliefs and doctrines just to say we are of monoteistic ones and to please jews and muslims.stop your non sense thoughts and feeling, suppositions on preexistance of jesus.
babu

[Tiffany]

Quote (pulivarthy @ Nov. 07 2008,18:14)

gene & adam, psalm 4:2 How long, O men, will you turn my glory into shame [ Or you dishonor my Glorious One ] ? How long will you love delusions and seek false gods [ Or seek lies ] ? Selah john 17:24 Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. you both are forgetting many scriptures in the bible on preexistance of Jesus and going after your suppositions and beliefs and doctrines just to say we are of monoteistic ones and to please jews and muslims.stop your non sense thoughts and feeling, suppositions on preexistance of jesus. babu

babu   Please do me a favor and do not judge these people, that is not worth doing so. God unfortunately has not opened their minds. They are somewhat blind. Let us pray for each other, that we may jave the good pleasure to be united in Christ.
Let us pray:” Heavenly Father we do come before your Throne through your Son Jesus Christ our Savior who gave His life for us so we can live. Give us all your wisdom to understand the truth of your words. May God be with us all in the coming days. God Bless all us all.” Amen

Peace and Love Irene

[pulivarthy]

irene,
thank you for your kind exhortation given to me through scripture.I am ver sorry if I hurt our brethern and God may forgive my transgression.lighten up you all.let us be united in christ .
babu

[gollamudi]

Amen to both Sis Irene and Babu.

[GeneBalthrop]

Adam…..you are right, the problem is people don't realize that the LIE spoken of in 2Ths2, is the LIE that JESUS (IS) God HIMSELF a reincarnated GOD MAN being, this LIE started at the council of Nicia in 325 A.D. And all Catholic and Protestant religions teach it. But Adam hold onto what God has given you to understand the whole Christian lies in a state of Apostasy, as it says in 2Ths 2. And that Apostasy is the false teaching of Jesus Being the Creator Himself and His preexistence. They use Obscure scriptures to try to justify their views , but stick with what God has shown you, which is of the truth.

love to you and yours………………….gene

[gollamudi]

Thank you very much brother Gene for your encouraging words.

[gollamudi]

Hi all,
Here is some different understanding on the conception of Jesus by virgin Mary;

“Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.” (Matt.1:18)

   The word “birth” comes from the Greek word “genesis” meaning “beginning, origin, procreation”.

   The contention that Jesus was born of Mary’s natural egg which was fertilized by the sperm introduced by the Holy Spirit is to necessitate that Jesus was a true earthly MAN. This teaching actually tears away the core of truth that Jesus was the ONLY BEGOTTEN (MONOGENE) OF GOD.  Just to support the teaching, this verse of Luke 1:35 is quoted: “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

   The overshadowing of the Virgin was not to purge or to sanctify her egg for fertilization by the sperm which was introduced by the Holy Spirit; it was the power of God coming upon her to bring about the genesis of the Manchild (Matt.1:20). She was chosen to be the 'mother' of the Child. As both the sperms and eggs of mankind hold the genetic traits of the fallen nature, and as the new creation of the fallen mankind can only take place by a spiritual rebirth, it would certainly be contrary for God to take one of Mary’s eggs and rid it of its natural genetic traits for the conception of His Son.  Hence, Matt.1:18 states clearly how the BIRTH of Jesus Christ came about – a genesis to bring about a new creation.  A new creation requires all things new.

   Now, the particular expression – “seed of the woman” – needs to be understood.  “And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.” (Gen.3:14-15)  A woman does not have seeds in her womb.  She receives seeds that are sown in her womb. Once a seed is received a conception takes place.  The expression speaks exclusively of a conception that is beyond the natural.  Let me illustrate: Joseph married Josephine and birthed a son, Joe.  Joe is the son of Joseph and Josephine but he is the seed of Joseph.  When Josephine was pregnant with Joe, she is said to be carrying the seed of Joseph.  However, by term of reference, the seed of Joseph is rightly Josephine’s too for she carried it.

   God had already pre-ordained a NEW CREATION for man even before the Fall of Mankind.  A new creation is not a re-creation.  It has nothing to do with the flesh.  It has to do with the spirit for “that which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” (John 3:6).  Hence, it is clear that “flesh is flesh” and “spirit is spirit”.

   So then, when the Spirit of God overshadowed Mary He planted His SEED in her.  This SEED is the WORD OF GOD (cf. Luke 8:11).  It has LIFE in itself when planted as an egg. That’s why the Word of God is the Seed of God. This is to bring about a NEW CREATION.  It has nothing to do with the natural flesh cell (egg) of Mary for she was a sinner and her flesh was also corrupt.

   To teach that God sanctified an egg cell of Mary so that He could introduce His “sperm cell” would be to teach, not NEW CREATION but REGENERATION.  Certainly, the definitions of the two terms are very similar but there is a marked difference.  A true worshipper who is born again with the baptism of the Holy Spirit has “a new heart” and “a new spirit” (Ezek.18:31; 36:26) will receive a glorified body at the Lord’s coming.  However, for anyone who has to live through the Age of Regeneration and subject himself/herself to Christ’s “rod of iron” rule will continue on into eternal life in the New Heaven and New Earth but he/she will not have a glorified body.

   Take a look at this passage:

KJV 1Cor.15:36:  Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37:  And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38:  But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39:  All flesh is not the same flesh:…

   Here’s the NIV rendition:

1Cor.15:36:  How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.

37:  When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else.

38:  But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.s

39:  All flesh is not the same:…

   Therefore, what kind of body did God give to Jesus Christ?  The Word, which was God, was just a seed of a SPIRITUAL kind.  As It was to bring forth ALL THINGS NEW in the life of all who could believe, It was given its own body totally handmade by the Almighty Father outside that of Mary’s own body.  It had to be His Own body, not a “hybrid” in any way, not even a taint of fallen flesh.  “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed” (1Pet.2:24).

   One question that normally pops up to defend the usage of “Mary’s egg” is this: “If Mary’s egg was not involved, how could Jesus ever feel the pain and suffering of fallen man?”

   This is quite a presumption that Jesus could not.  Before Jesus came, did Yahweh our God not feel our pain and suffering?  Need God be a man to feel such?  And did not the Father show that by identifying with us in His Son?

   Thank God that we are “being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever” (1 Pet.1:23).

   So, without doubt, both the sperm and the egg, which brought about the conception and birth of Jesus Christ, were totally the creation of God. Jesus Christ is the PURE SEED of God. He is the MONOGENE.

Please submit your valuable comments on this.
Thanks and peace to all.
Adam

[NickHassan]

Hi GM,
Mary was the mother of Jesus.
Not the surrogate mother.

Jesus partook of our nature.
He was a man.

[gollamudi]

Hi brother Nick,
Thanks for your comments and I also believe that Jesus must have shared Mary's nature that is human flesh and blood. But let us wait and see what others say on this new approach to conception.

[gollamudi]

For Sis Meerkat,
Any thoughts on this thread ?

[meerkat]

Hi Adam,

Where I am at the moment is that as well as being the son of David (which has a loophole that Jesus could be the adopted son of Joseph and so, son of David) he is of the seed of David
John 7:42  Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

Romans 1:3  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh

G4690
σπέρμα
sperma
sper'-mah
From G4687; somethng sown, that is, seed (including the male “sperm”); by implication offspring; specifically a remnant (figuratively as if kept over for planting): – issue, seed.

The Y chomosome can only come from the male – so mary can not give Jesus his maleness so either Jesus has his maleness from the Holy Spirit and is half divine and half flesh or he has a human father (Joseph)

[NickHassan]

Hi MK,
Scripture says he is a man.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Do we need more info?

[meerkat]

I agree he was a physical man

[Not3in1]

Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 11 2008,05:45)

so mary can not give Jesus his maleness so either Jesus has his maleness from the Holy Spirit and is half divine and half flesh or he has a human father (Joseph)

I totally, 100% agree that Jesus is divine!!

Love,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 12 2008,07:22)

Hi MK, Scripture says he is a man. 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Do we need more info?

Yes, a man. But the disciples wondered to themselves what “…manner of man….” he was!

Something to ponder…

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
An anointed man.
God was with him[acts 10]
He was even filled with God.[2Cor5.19,. Jn3]

Of special origins for sure but and anointed man.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 12 2008,09:38)

Of special origins for sure but and anointed man.

You should have stopped after, “..but….”

😉

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