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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 23 2008,17:41) Hi Mandy,
The Spirit will reveal the scriptures.
Sure, I think God uses the written Word. However we are also told that the spirit of God will teach us what to say, where to go, what to do.Those words are living, not found in dried ink.
Luke 12:12
for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say.”John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 14:25-Hi Mandy,
Certainly and 1Jn2
27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.But the Spirit does not speak of His own initiative but takes us back to the Word.
Spirits must be tested. How? By the WordI find this page interesting, a couple paragraphs down, under the heading:
Does a “pre-human” Messiah disqualify or compromise the human Messiah’s true humanity?
http://members.shaw.ca/homechr….nce.htmThere, he says:
(1) Real “human” beings cannot walk on water. (2) Jesus walked on water. (3) Therefore, Jesus was not a real human being.The answer seems to be, “No, Jesus was a real human and he did walk on water, but he did so by the miraculous intervention of God. That is, God made an exception in that particular case by suspending or circumventing the laws of gravity, for a specific purpose.” The same could be argued against the traditional Socinian reasoning: “Yes, the Son of God did exist in the heavenly realm and was born as a true human, simply by a unique and powerful miracle of God.”
So, in my opinion, it is possible that this objection and line of questioning (presented by Hach, Buzzard, Mages) is representative of a non-existent dilemma. And if belief in the personal, pre-human existence of God’s Son is a mistake, I doubt that such belief is, at heart, a “survivor of the docetic form of second-century Gnosticism”; but is, rather, a misunderstanding, a mistaken interpretation of the scriptural information; a failure to recognize where and when the Bible writers and participants are using language of the figruative and proleptic kind (an interpreting as literal that which was intended to be taken as metaphoric and ideal); and, even, in certain cases, a result of mistaken judgments having to do with debatable issues of translation and of textual criticism.[12] Likewise, if disbelief in the pre-human existence of Jesus Christ is a mistake, it is based, not on any sinister motive or lack of honesty or faith in the Bible’s teaching, but based largely on a belief that in the cases where Christ spoke about himself (or when others spoke about him) as if he existed before his human birth, that it was really meant proleptically, ideally—which we must acknowledge are verifiable literary characteristics woven all throughout the sacred Hebrew and Christian Scriptures. Socinians may be correct about this. But I don’t believe the argument that a “pre-human Messiah means that the human Messiah was not really a human” carries enough weight to effectively establish their case and should not be accepted as the primary basis for rejecting such a concept—if, of course, it is genuinely biblical. Nor should such a philosophical presupposition interfere with our judgment regarding texts that potentially could teach a pre-human existence.[13] The question that concerns us most is, again, what do the Scriptures teach? What did Jesus teach?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 24 2008,07:48) Hi Mandy,
Certainly and 1Jn2
27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.But the Spirit does not speak of His own initiative but takes us back to the Word.
Spirits must be tested. How? By the Word
of course the real irony here is that “a man” is teahing you not to accept the teachings of a man. In other words, this passage must be kept alongside the other passages in Scripture which tell us that human teachers are necessary, and not only necessary, but a gift from God Himself!!1Co 12:28 esv And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.
Eph 4:7-14 esv But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore it says, (In saying, He ascended, what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.”
In fact God chides those written to in the Book of Hebrews for NOT being teachers!!
Heb 5:12 esv For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food,”blessings,
KenQuote (david @ Oct. 24 2008,15:50) I find this page interesting, a couple paragraphs down, under the heading:
Does a “pre-human” Messiah disqualify or compromise the human Messiah’s true humanity?
http://members.shaw.ca/homechr….nce.htmThere, he says:
(1) Real “human” beings cannot walk on water. (2) Jesus walked on water. (3) Therefore, Jesus was not a real human being.The answer seems to be, “No, Jesus was a real human and he did walk on water, but he did so by the miraculous intervention of God. That is, God made an exception in that particular case by suspending or circumventing the laws of gravity, for a specific purpose.” The same could be argued against the traditional Socinian reasoning: “Yes, the Son of God did exist in the heavenly realm and was born as a true human, simply by a unique and powerful miracle of God.”
So, in my opinion, it is possible that this objection and line of questioning (presented by Hach, Buzzard, Mages) is representative of a non-existent dilemma. And if belief in the personal, pre-human existence of God’s Son is a mistake, I doubt that such belief is, at heart, a “survivor of the docetic form of second-century Gnosticism”; but is, rather, a misunderstanding, a mistaken interpretation of the scriptural information; a failure to recognize where and when the Bible writers and participants are using language of the figruative and proleptic kind (an interpreting as literal that which was intended to be taken as metaphoric and ideal); and, even, in certain cases, a result of mistaken judgments having to do with debatable issues of translation and of textual criticism.[12] Likewise, if disbelief in the pre-human existence of Jesus Christ is a mistake, it is based, not on any sinister motive or lack of honesty or faith in the Bible’s teaching, but based largely on a belief that in the cases where Christ spoke about himself (or when others spoke about him) as if he existed before his human birth, that it was really meant proleptically, ideally—which we must acknowledge are verifiable literary characteristics woven all throughout the sacred Hebrew and Christian Scriptures. Socinians may be correct about this. But I don’t believe the argument that a “pre-human Messiah means that the human Messiah was not really a human” carries enough weight to effectively establish their case and should not be accepted as the primary basis for rejecting such a concept—if, of course, it is genuinely biblical. Nor should such a philosophical presupposition interfere with our judgment regarding texts that potentially could teach a pre-human existence.[13] The question that concerns us most is, again, what do the Scriptures teach? What did Jesus teach?
well Jesus taught that He existed prior to his birth as a human being…“His Pre-Existence
In line with the intertestamental Jewish teaching of the eternal pre-existence of the Messiah, the authors of the New Testament clearly taught that Jesus Christ did not begin His existence in the womb of the Virgin. He actually pre-existed from all eternity.
By “pre-existence” we mean that while the body of Jesus began with its conception in the womb, the mind or soul of Jesus existed before the conception of His fleshly body. Jesus is, thus, unique in that He was the only man whose soul pre-existed his conception in the womb of his mother. Whereas we begin to exist at conception, the Son of God pre-existed His entrance into this world.When we turn to the Old Testament, we find such texts as Proverbs 30:4 which speak of the Son of God as someone who existed at that time. It is, thus, no wonder, as we have already documented, that the early Jewish literature described the Messiah as pre-existing His coming to earth. The New Testament picks up this concept and applies it to Jesus without hesitation.
The Theophanies
We have already seen that in Old Testament times Yahweh came to earth in human form and communed with the Patriarchs and prophets of old. The link between this God-man and the Messiah was given in the name “Wonderful” (פֶּלֶא) which is found in Judges 13:17-18 and Isaiah 9:6. The New Testament then links together Jesus and the God-man seen by Isaiah in John 12:
John 12:36 “While you have the light, believe in the light, in order that you may become sons of light.” These things Jesus spoke, and He departed and hid Himself from them. 37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him; 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke, “lord, who has believed our report? and to whom has the arm of the lord been revealed?” 39 For this cause they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 “he has blinded their eyes, and he hardened their heart; lest they see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, and be converted, and i heal them.” 41 These things Isaiah said, because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him. 42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue;”The passage is quite straight forward:
1. The person in view is Jesus. The passage begins and ends with Him.2. The fact that Jesus was rejected by the Pharisees is viewed by John as a fulfillment of Isaiah 53:1 and Isaiah 6:10.
3. Since he had just quoted Isaiah 6:10, John looked at the context and saw that Isaiah had seen “the Lord” (אֲדֹנָי) in verse 1 whom he later identified as יְהוָה “Yahweh” in 6:5. Adonai Yahweh appeared to him in human form sitting on a throne in the temple. John explains that this God-man was none other that Jesus in His pre-existent glory.
The grammar of the Greek text of John 12:41 is clear:
ταῦτα εἶπεν Ἠσαΐας ὅτι εἶδεν τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐλάλησεν περὶ αὑτοῦ.
According to the apostle John, when Isaiah said that he had seen יְהוָה he was speaking περὶ αὐτοῦ “about Him,” i.e., Jesus. As Hengstenberg points out, “αὐτου refers back to verse 37.”
Of this there can be “no doubt,” according to the famous Greek scholar J.B. Lightfoot in his Commentary On The New Testament From the Talmud and Hebraica.51 The classic French commentator Godet explains:
John justifies in this verse the application which he has just made to Jesus Christ of the vision of Isa. 6. The Adonai whom Isaiah beheld at that moment was the divine being who is incarnated in Jesus. Here also John and Paul meet together; comp. 1 Cor. 10:4, where Paul calls the one who guided Israel from the midst of the Cloud Christ.
The ancient Latin and Syriac versions of John’s gospel agree with this understanding. The Syriac text says:
It was of Christ, who manifested Himself to him as Adonai, that Isaiah spoke when he uttered such words.
4. There is no honest way to avoid the grammar of the text. All the pronouns “Him” refers to the proper name “Jesus” from verse 36. Even verse 42 clearly refers to Jesus and continues using the same pronoun “Him.” We have plac
ed the pronouns in bold text so the reader can see that they all refer back to Jesus.5. John 12:36-42 establishes the link between the theophanies of the Old Testament and the Jesus of the New Testament. Whenever Yahweh in the Old Testament came to earth as a man, this was probably the pre-existent Jesus.
He Came to This World
This is no doubt why John pictured Jesus as “coming” into this world because He was “sent” here by the Father (John 1:3; 3:16-17, 19; 1 John 4:3, etc.). When Jesus claimed to have existed before Abraham, the Jews clearly understood that this was a claim not only for pre-existence, but also for deity, and they picked up stones to kill him for the blasphemy John 8:53-59).
The other writers of the New Testament likewise described Jesus as “coming” to this world from a previous place (1 Tim. 1:15; Heb. 1:6; 2:14, etc.). We are then told that He came “down from heaven” to earth:“I have come down from heaven.” (John 6:38)
“He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man.” (John 3:13)
“He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.” (John 3:31)
The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. (1 Cor. 15:47)
The Lord Jesus Christ left heaven to embrace our poverty so that we might leave earth and inherit His riches!
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich. (2 Cor. 8:9)One significant passage which establishes the pre-existence of Christ as the eternal Son of God is Romans 8:3. The doctrine of Christ’s Eternal Sonship is clearly taught in this text:
“For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh.”
“τὸ γὰρ ἀδύνατον τοῦ νόμου ἐν ᾧ ἡσθένει διὰ τῆς σαρκός, ὁ θεὸς τὸν ἑαυτοῦ υἱὸν πέμψας ἐν ὁμοιώματι σαρκὸς ἁμαρτίας καὶ περὶ ἁμαρτίας κατέκρινεν τὴν ἁμαρτίαν ἐν τῇ σαρκί,”
The phrase τὸν ἑαυτοῦ υἱὸν πέμψας “sending His own Son” is very significant. Who did God send to earth? “His own Son.” Thus Jesus was the Son before He came to earth. As the German commentator Heinrich Meyer pointed out, “the conception of the pre-existence and metaphysical Sonship of Christ is to be recognized.” The great Princeton theologian Charles Hodge comments:
…his own Son, τὸν ἑαυτοῦ υἱὸν. The term Son here evidently designates the eternal personal Son. He was from eternity, and in virtue of his Divine nature, and not in virtue of his miraculous birth, or his exaltation, the Son of God.
There are three terms in the New Testament which indicate the eternal pre-existence and deity of Christ:term text meaning
μονογενἤ John 3:16 His unique Sonἴδιον John 5:18 His own Father
ἑαυτου Rom. 8:3 His own Son
William G.T. Shedd, in his commentary on the Greek text of Romans, points out:
These three epithets distinguish the eternal sonship of the second Trinitarian person, from the adoptive sonship of believers, spoken of in 8:14-17, et alia.The eternal pre-existence of Christ is something clearly assumed by the authors of the New Testament. Indeed, it would be impossible for them to write such passages as Romans 8:3, if they did not believe in it.”
Morey, R. A. (1996). The Trinity : Evidences and Issues (310). Iowa Falls, IA.: World Pub.blessings,
KenIf you want folks to find your posts on PREEXISTENCE – best move to that thread.
Regarding conception – does anyone truly believe Jesus was conceived? I dare say that most want to believe it. But in the end they have to change the true meaning of the word and process to accept it. I wonder if the Father had that in mind when he used that mode for bringing his ONLY conceived Son into the world? I doubt it….but I stand alone on this.
mandy,
We are of flesh and blood.Flesh gives pattern for our shape and size etc, whereas the blood is lthe life of body and the same blood carries/prepares our seed/semen.Similarly GoD has a pattern (image/shape of Father) and similar to blood, spirit flows in him as Gog is spirit.It means God is full of Spirit/life.That spirit only carries his seed/jesus christ.Therefore, Jesus christ and Spirit are parts of God.That Spirit carrying seed/jesus only became flesh in mary's womb.As a result what I want to say is God=spirit=seed/son.Since beginning that spiri only is making all impossible into possible like sarah's conception,elisabeth conception et.This time the miracle doer became itself flessh.
babuQuote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 27 2008,12:43) Jesus coming in the flesh seems pretty important to the story….. It shouldn't be denied.
You are right Mandy,
This is the truth that separates people of Anti-christ from people of real Christ.The bible just says Jesus was a man – likened unto Adam. It says he had a virgin birth. Other than that we don't know squat! It's all pretty vague. Not clear enough for anyone to make a sound judgement that a zillion other people wouldn't disagree with.
The system is flawed. The book is flawed. The God of this religion has left major holes in his testimony…..and we're supposed to fill in the gaps? Spare me.
Mandy,
with skeptic mind on Lord Jesus,we can not understand God.No squat and nothing .Jesus existed in spirit form.When God himself is invisible, how a son being carried/possed by an invisible will be visible.For our limited senses, he was brought into appearance by putting upon him flesh and blood.Bible never says jesus is likened unto adam, but he is likened unto a human being, a sentient being.As first born of all creation, he was before adam.God was displaying all his handiwork through his only son/spirit/word including creation of adam also.
scripture can not be cooked story to build our faith.
babuQuote (pulivarthy @ Nov. 05 2008,21:19) Mandy,
with skeptic mind on Lord Jesus,we can not understand God.No squat and nothing .Jesus existed in spirit form.When God himself is invisible, how a son being carried/possed by an invisible will be visible.For our limited senses, he was brought into appearance by putting upon him flesh and blood.Bible never says jesus is likened unto adam, but he is likened unto a human being, a sentient being.As first born of all creation, he was before adam.God was displaying all his handiwork through his only son/spirit/word including creation of adam also.
scripture can not be cooked story to build our faith.
babu
You are right on the nose. Unfortunately some of us just do not want to see it, even tho there scripture that state that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation. And that He was the one who created all. How can He create all if He is not there? In John 17:5 it says that He had a glory like the Father. What glory did the Father have? Nothing is vague here. And what did He emptied Himself off? He was the image of the invisible God. What I cant understand how one can deny that He created all things. Col 1:15-17 explains that very good. And what again is preeminence? He was first in all things.
The Word became flesh. What was He before?
Verse 3 again states that He created all. How can He create all if He is just a thought in the Fathers mind, like some might want to believe?
Precept upon precept, lime upon line.Peace and Love Irene
To All…….Jesus was simply a man who was foreordained by God to be the first human born to completely image Him. Does it not say “for (THY SEED) shall bruise His head, God here plainly shows His plan of causing a human being to bruise the head of Satan. He did not preexist except in the plan and will of God. God did not take an already perfect being and then perfect Him again. God brought forth a flesh and blood son and with His spirit perfected Him.
No reincarnation of any kind. Jesus was not almighty GOD incarnated in flesh. If we listen to Jesus words He makes that plain, saying He could do (NOTHING) of Himself, hardly the word of a GOD MAN, and again it says He (LEARNED) obedience by the things he suffered, again hardly a GOD Man, it says He (Grew in stature and Knowledge of GOD). He told us to overcome the Way he did saying “to him that overcomes the way i did”. How could he say that if he were already a preexistent perfect being .
It plainly says “there is one God and One Mediator between man and God the (MAN) Jesus Christ”, not the preexistent being Jesus Christ. All these false teachings were added by False Christianity over the years which is what apostatized the Church. Read 2 Ths 2..> this man of sin LIE is the creation of Jesus who sits in the temple of God as very GOD HIMSELF , and this lie will to abolished at his return by Jesus Himself just as it say it will be. There is no human being who is worshiped as God Himself except Jesus so only Jesus could fulfill that. Man has always wanted to make man a God from the earliest of pagan writings man wanted to be perceived as a GOD.
If we believe what Jesus says about LORD we will know that, “HEAR O ISRAEL, THE LORD OUR GOD IS (ONE)LORD. Believe what he says and you won't have a problem know who the Father is and who Jesus is. imo
peace and love to all……………….gene
Gen You are ignoring a lot of Scriptures not believing in a preexisting Jesus. How do you explain when it says in Col. 1:15 the He created all. That through Him and for Him.
He had also preeminence in all. First in all. First to be born and first to resurrected from the dead.
I have put all of this up before and you simple ignore. So I will say to you Goodbye on this one, hope on day God will let you see it, I did deny it first too, do good luck. Irene
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