Conception

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 04 2008,10:14)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,08:53) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 04 2008,08:40) conception   Audio Help   (kən-sěp'shən)  Pronunciation Key   The formation of a zygote resulting from the union of a sperm and egg cell; fertilization. zygote [(zeye-goht)] The single cell that results from fertilization of an ovum by a sperm. After dividing several times, it implants in the uterus. It continues to divide, producing more cells and passing through the stages of embryo and fetus. IS ANYONE STILL WILLING TO SAY THAT JESUS WAS TRULY CONCEIVED? Thanks, Mandy Hi not3, Let God define conception and not force it through human science. Too tidy. Don't buy it.  The only reason folks resort to this type of thinking is because the true definition doesn't fit their theology.  IMO

Mandy

What is the “True definition”?

[Not3in1]

(Shaking head…..),

Keith and other's,

When you understand something as basic as conception (hello people), there need not be any fancy definition. However I did pull one from a dictionary for those who would like to see it in writing.

Also, if you want to nit-pick definitions then you would have to go back and look at other words that may have different meanings, such as “word”, “also”, “to”, “with”, “by”, and a host of other words that would certainly change theologies all over the world.

Huge question to you all: WHY does noone want to believe that God fathered his child? What is so offensive about this idea?

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
Is the dictionary the bottom line of truth?

[gollamudi]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 04 2008,10:33)

(Shaking head…..), Keith and other's, When you understand something as basic as conception (hello people), there need not be any fancy definition.  However I did pull one from a dictionary for those who would like to see it in writing. Also, if you want to nit-pick definitions then you would have to go back and look at other words that may have different meanings, such as “word”, “also”, “to”, “with”, “by”, and a host of other words that would certainly change theologies all over the world. Huge question to you all:  WHY does noone want to believe that God fathered his child?  What is so offensive about this idea?

Hi Sis,
I almost agree with your conception definition. You mean to say that the characteristics of God (through DNA) have been fused with Mary's DNA  or simply God caused  male (perfect) sperm fertile with Mary's egg ?
Sorry to interrupt you.
Adam

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2008,10:53)

Hi not3, Is the dictionary the bottom line of truth?

If you don't the know the spelling of a word or a definition of a word are you going to seek out a bible or a dictionary?

Get real, dude!  

[Not3in1]

Quote (gollamudi @ June 04 2008,13:44)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 04 2008,10:33) (Shaking head…..), Keith and other's, When you understand something as basic as conception (hello people), there need not be any fancy definition.  However I did pull one from a dictionary for those who would like to see it in writing. Also, if you want to nit-pick definitions then you would have to go back and look at other words that may have different meanings, such as “word”, “also”, “to”, “with”, “by”, and a host of other words that would certainly change theologies all over the world. Huge question to you all:  WHY does noone want to believe that God fathered his child?  What is so offensive about this idea? Hi Sis, I almost agree with your conception definition. You mean to say that the characteristics of God (through DNA) have been fused with Mary's DNA  or simply God caused  male (perfect) sperm fertile with Mary's egg ? Sorry to interrupt you. Adam

ABSOLUTELY YES to the first part. I believe Jesus is God's literal son.

[Not3in1]

Quote (seek and you will find @ June 04 2008,09:16)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 04 2008,08:40) conception   Audio Help   (kən-sěp'shən)  Pronunciation Key   The formation of a zygote resulting from the union of a sperm and egg cell; fertilization. zygote [(zeye-goht)] The single cell that results from fertilization of an ovum by a sperm. After dividing several times, it implants in the uterus. It continues to divide, producing more cells and passing through the stages of embryo and fetus. IS ANYONE STILL WILLING TO SAY THAT JESUS WAS TRULY CONCEIVED? Thanks, Mandy Mandy! We really do not know how Jesus was conceived. Since it was of the Holy Spirit, I do not think that it went as we Humans are conceived. Peace and Love Mrs.

Mary would probably disagree with you.

She was pregnant for 9 months.
She suffered labor pains.
She gave birth to a son who's Father was/is God Almighty.
She gave him the name Jesus and he was Lord at his birth.

However I'm positive everything went status quo in the conception/birth department. Jesus was a man. What needed to happen for that to occur?

See the above definition for conception.

[Artizan007]

I always wonder why the first Gospel has no mention of this virgin birth. Why does James, Jude, Peter or Paul never mention a virgin birth… he speaks of his birth, but not in any miraculous sense. Although Paul does use the word “chaste virgin” in connection to the Church, he never mentions Mary as being a virgin, or Jesus being Virgin born in his writings, and neither do any of the other writers of these letters. Why?

I mean this idea of a virgin birth is foundational to Christianity, so why is it never hinted at in Paul letter to the Romans or Galatians etc or is it simply Mystery religion sneaking in and changing the words and ideas of Jesus – Mystery religions from time past have had dying and rising saviours, who were born of virgins, albeit mythical figures and not a literal persons.

The virgin birth is common among these pagan systems. So why would God do something like this? Is our God a God of originality. Does it prove the so called prophecy of the coming “Emanuel” in Isaiah 7:14 or do we read more into the text than is stated…

I am still studying various ideas on the virgin birth, but to me the idea of the Incarnation in Mary is more pagan than one would expect to find in Orthodox Judaism, and contrary to the idea of a messiah being of the line of David and born of a woman. I agree with Not3in1 that for Jesus to be like us in every way, there has to be a conception, a miracle from God, not an incarnation of a pre-existent God/Word – this terminology sounds gnostic to me, and it still leaves me wondering how Jesus was of the line of David and a man if he was pre-existent as a son before his birth.

The words used, of the birth of Jesus, like birth, conceived etc must mean what they are meant to mean – birth, born and conceived. It does not say that which was placed in you, or that pre-existent being that now resides in you by the HS, but that which is conceived in you. The same word “conceived” was used of Mary as was used of Elisabeth.

There are many myths of god's impregnating a human woman, and giving birth to a saviour god/God… like: Adonis, Atis, Mithra, the Sons of Jove, and many others like them: Chrishna and Dionysus… Like Jesus, Dionysus is a god/God whose tragic passion is re-enacted by eating his flesh and drinking his blood”. The Dionysus cult reached Rome in 496 B.C. Prometheus is called a God, and this 547 B.C hymn to him says:

“Lo! Streaming from the fatal tree,
His all atoning blood.
Is this the Infinite?—Yes, ‘tis he,
Prometheus, and a God!
Well might the sun in darkness hide,
And veil his glories in,
When God, the great
Prometheus, died
For man the creature’s sin.”

Interesting stuff as it is pre-christian and speaks of the atoning blood streaming from the fatal tree,  and implies death on a tree for the creatures sin… we see hints of the sun in darkness hiding, and there is mention of a veil, this god was the Great God who died.

So why so many dying gods? Why so many saviours? Why so many virgin births? Is Christianity simply a copycat religion that has taken on other's religious thought, perfected it through intrigue and then created new dogma and theology to go along with it. These are questions I have to ask, if I am ever to truly understand.

We seem to argue over all the things that have been added to the simple message of repentance that Jesus, like John the Baptist preached? We argue over the Trinity, Virgin Birth, Incarnation and such stuff… There are scriptures to prove anything or any idea if you look hard enough.

Those are my thoughts right now…

[dirtyknections]

Quote (Artizan007 @ June 05 2008,00:50)

I always wonder why the first Gospel has no mention of this virgin birth. Why does James, Jude, Peter or Paul never mention a virgin birth… he speaks of his birth, but not in any miraculous sense. Although Paul does use the word “chaste virgin” in connection to the Church, he never mentions Mary as being a virgin, or Jesus being Virgin born in his writings, and neither do any of the other writers of these letters. Why? I mean this idea of a virgin birth is foundational to Christianity, so why is it never hinted at in Paul letter to the Romans or Galatians etc or is it simply Mystery religion sneaking in and changing the words and ideas of Jesus – Mystery religions from time past have had dying and rising saviours, who were born of virgins, albeit mythical figures and not a literal persons. The virgin birth is common among these pagan systems. So why would God do something like this? Is our God a God of originality. Does it prove the so called prophecy of the coming “Emanuel” in Isaiah 7:14 or do we read more into the text than is stated… I am still studying various ideas on the virgin birth, but to me the idea of the Incarnation in Mary is more pagan than one would expect to find in Orthodox Judaism, and contrary to the idea of a messiah being of the line of David and born of a woman. I agree with Not3in1 that for Jesus to be like us in every way, there has to be a conception, a miracle from God, not an incarnation of a pre-existent God/Word – this terminology sounds gnostic to me, and it still leaves me wondering how Jesus was of the line of David and a man if he was pre-existent as a son before his birth. The words used, of the birth of Jesus, like birth, conceived etc must mean what they are meant to mean – birth, born and conceived. It does not say that which was placed in you, or that pre-existent being that now resides in you by the HS, but that which is conceived in you. The same word “conceived” was used of Mary as was used of Elisabeth. There are many myths of god's impregnating a human woman, and giving birth to a saviour god/God… like: Adonis, Atis, Mithra, the Sons of Jove, and many others like them: Chrishna and Dionysus… Like Jesus, Dionysus is a god/God whose tragic passion is re-enacted by eating his flesh and drinking his blood”. The Dionysus cult reached Rome in 496 B.C. Prometheus is called a God, and this 547 B.C hymn to him says: “Lo! Streaming from the fatal tree, His all atoning blood. Is this the Infinite?—Yes, ‘tis he, Prometheus, and a God! Well might the sun in darkness hide, And veil his glories in, When God, the great Prometheus, died For man the creature’s sin.” Interesting stuff as it is pre-christian and speaks of the atoning blood streaming from the fatal tree,  and implies death on a tree for the creatures sin… we see hints of the sun in darkness hiding, and there is mention of a veil, this god was the Great God who died. So why so many dying gods? Why so many saviours? Why so many virgin births? Is Christianity simply a copycat religion that has taken on other's religious thought, perfected it through intrigue and then created new dogma and theology to go along with it. These are questions I have to ask, if I am ever to truly understand. We seem to argue over all the things that have been added to the simple message of repentance that Jesus, like John the Baptist preached? We argue over the Trinity, Virgin Birth, Incarnation and such stuff… There are scriptures to prove anything or any idea if you look hard enough. Those are my thoughts right now…

If you do not believe in the story of Christ as told in the bible then you do not believed he has died for our sins…

Ransom, propitiatory sacrifice, messiah…they are over 100 prophesies about the coming messiah and what he was to do.
The first prophecy in the bible found at Genesis 3:15 Pre-date any of the Pagan stories you quote…

You should really examine what you really believe. Without the virgin birth and the simple message at John 3:16 we would still be condemned to death…

Take these scriptures to heart:

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (New International Version)-16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Ephesians 4:11-17 (New International Version)-11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

Blessings

[dirtyknections]

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 05 2008,01:16)

14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.

Specifically..this part

[Artizan007]

“The first prophecy in the bible found at Genesis 3:15 Pre-date any of the Pagan stories you quote”… Maybe of the ones I quoted, but you are mistaken if you think that this story was written down first – the first stories of expected “Messiah” figures, and of Dying and Rising God's can be found in Egyptian texts long before the Genesis account was ever written down.

The book of Genesis, and the Hebrew story of Eden, was not written till much later and is pretty similar to the account of creation told in Egypt. I am not saying it is wrong, but it was not the first account to be written down, and not the first prophecy to be told one that would come to redeem humanity.

Anyway this prophecy does not state that the seed of Eve would be born of a virgin, but simply that it would be through the offspring that came from Eve that one day would rise the one to crush the serpent. Again virgin birth is not even hinted at here and this is consistent through out the Scriptures.

Where does the Bible say I have to believe in a virgin birth for God's redemptive power to work in my life?

[Artizan007]

Paul is writing a letter to encourage Timothy, it is not scripture – it only became scripture much later. The scripture Paul was talking about here was the Old Testament. or do you think Paul considered this personal letter to Timothy as scripture?

[Artizan007]

Can you please quote from the Old Testament that Jesus was to be the propitiatory/ransom for the sin of the “world”?

[gollamudi]

Hi Arti,
I don't know what you believe, your query has been answered in Isaiah 53 ” He himself bore the sins of many”
Adam

[dirtyknections]

Quote (Artizan007 @ June 05 2008,02:15)

Can you please quote from the Old Testament that Jesus was to be the propitiatory/ransom for the sin of the “world”?

Sure Art..

Genesis 3:15- 15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

What are the dynamics of this scripture? What is being said here?

[dirtyknections]

Quote (Artizan007 @ June 05 2008,01:53)

“The first prophecy in the bible found at Genesis 3:15 Pre-date any of the Pagan stories you quote”… Maybe of the ones I quoted, but you are mistaken if you think that this story was written down first – the first stories of expected “Messiah” figures, and of Dying and Rising God's can be found in Egyptian texts long before the Genesis account was ever written down. The book of Genesis, and the Hebrew story of Eden, was not written till much later and is pretty similar to the account of creation told in Egypt. I am not saying it is wrong, but it was not the first account to be written down, and not the first prophecy to be told one that would come to redeem humanity. Anyway this prophecy does not state that the seed of Eve would be born of a virgin, but simply that it would be through the offspring that came from Eve that one day would rise the one to crush the serpent. Again virgin birth is not even hinted at here and this is consistent through out the Scriptures. Where does the Bible say I have to believe in a virgin birth for God's redemptive power to work in my life?

Ok..Art..show and prove with evidence which pagan stories tell a story of a christ-like figure…and then show evidence that gives hints as to the timeline as to when the stories were written..

And quick comment…Do not be confused..Satan knows the scriptures just as well as you and I..Remember “the temptation of Christ”…the bible also calls Satan an “angel of light”…and it said he has “blinded the minds of the unbelievers”..Satan has been using that same ole trick of, “Lets confusion thru seemingly identical choices” since the Garden of Eden….Where do you thin pagan beliefs and storis like the one's you qouted originate from? The bible says the devil…

[Artizan007]

Hi Adam,

Thanks for that scripture passage, however, I think you firstly need to decide who is doing the talking in Isaiah 53 and who the talking is being done about… Start in Isaiah 52 and read through to 54… Isaiah 53 is not a stand alone chapter, it begins in 52…

Who does the term Our message refer to?
Who does the “he” and the “us” and “him” in verse 2 refer to?
Who does the “he” and the “our” and the “him” in verse 4 refer to?
Who is the we all, us, our own, who is the one the Lord lays on the iniquity of “us” all… go through them all and you will see that it is just as plausible to translate Isaiah 53 as being the startled kings in 52:15 who are doing the talking and they are talking of Israel.

Think as Isaiah would have thought and then tell me if this Chapter relates to a messiah yet to come or to the people of Israel.

Israel in the singular is called God's servant throughout Isaiah, both explicitly (Isa. 41:8-9; 44:1-2; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3) and implicitly (Isa. 42:19-20; 43:10) – the Messiah is not. Other references to Israel as God's servant include Jer. 30:10 (note that in Jer. 30:17, the servant Israel is regarded by the nations as an outcast, forsaken by God, as in Isa. 53:4); Jer. 46:27-28; Ps. 136:22; Lk. 1:54. Israel is referred to as God's servant, The Servants of the Lord, God's witness, the one whom God has chosen, His Son, He, Him, Jacob, Israel etc.

[gollamudi]

Hi DK this scripture is not for profitation of sins

[dirtyknections]

Quote (Artizan007 @ June 05 2008,01:53)

Where does the Bible say I have to believe in a virgin birth for God's redemptive power to work in my life?

It doesn't say…but I wonder if you truly understand why Jesus had to die for us…and why it took a virgin birth and conception?

[gollamudi]

Hi Arti,
It is explained by Philip to Eunuch in Acts 8:28-36.

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