- This topic has 1,478 replies, 55 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 8 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote Yeshua came in the flesh, he was not part flesh, he was fully flesh and blood.
So you put no stock in the fact that he had a flesh mother but a spirit father? Doesn't the father provide the seed by which a new individual is made? The father provides other things as well determining the sex, and the blood portion for the cells dividing (but that another thread).Quote 2 John1:7 Many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh; any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist!
All the verses you listed and wonderful and true! Jesus did come in the flesh. Mary was his mother and Mary was human – this makes complete sense. Jesus also came from his Father, who is spirit. Would it be fair for the Son of the Almighty God to only have his mother's contributions? In what way would Jesus then also be his father's son? In spirit only? But of conception then? Was it only a joke or was God trying to confuse us by using something we understand and making it something completely different? I don't think so, but again this is my interpretation of scripture and life. Interpretations are like…….everyone has one……..
Quote John 1:12 but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God — to those believing in his name, 13 who — not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but — of God were begotten.
Jesus was born of flesh and the will of God, but we are adopted. The Father has qualified you and me to be born again by the giving of his Son, but we cannot be born of God in the way that Jesus was. We must be born again. We must be adopted. Jesus already belongs. He was the Father's Son since birth, and some believe before that. We are not God's children, some believe, until we are born again. There is a message here for those who will see it.Quote 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received a spirit of adoption. When we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 it is that very Spirit bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ—if, in fact, we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.
Yes, adoption is a theme throughout the NT. Paul speaks of it as well saying that it is our hope, and we hope for something we do not yet have. But at any rate, we will be adopted. Jesus belonged from birth. Why do you think that is?Quote Yeshua’s conception was caused through the Holy Spirit, and from his birth Yeshua was led by the Spirit in a way that no man had ever been led. Being fully led by the Spirit Yeshau was one with Yah in spirit meaning his mind. As the Spirit beared witness with Yehsua’s spirit from his conception this gave him the title of the ‘only begotten son’. The bible is clear however that we to are children of God if indeed our spirit is led by the Spirit of Yah.
This is one idea. But there are other's. Why believe that Jesus was only given the spirit sort of like a gift from God? Why is it such a stretch to believe that Jesus was actually fathered by God? So in this way he is the true and literal Father to Jesus, “his Son”. So in this way Jesus has his Father indwelling in him as I do my father. We are part of one another.Jesus is God's Son.
We hope to be adopted.
God made a way for us to be adopted.
You adopt after your own kind. Jesus is part God's spirit and flesh.
When we are reborn, what are we? We are still flesh, but we receive God's spirit…..then we can become true children of God!Quote How is it that Yeshua was the image of Yah? Yeshua was not the physical image or likeness of Yah, he was spiritually like minded with Him, he got this way by being given Yah’s Spirit not by being of the same substance.
God is spirit, not flesh. I suppose that Jesus probably took after his mother in the flesh department, but took after his father in the many qualities of the spirit. I look just like my mother, but I am more like my father, for instance.It's interesting how Adam had lived so many years, 130 to be exact, and he had many sons, but it is said in Gen. 5:3, “When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image;……”. Are we led to believe that Seth was the only one who looked like Adam out of all of his many sons? Probably not. But Seth was probably more like him than any of his other sons. It's just a guess, really. Again, these are all based on my interpretations of scripture. No one has contacted me to be on any Bible translation committee yet, or to contribute to any new version of the Word of God.
Quote Mandy the bible is clear as to the physical and mental substance of Yeshua and it in no way adds up to him being part of the same substance of his Father, on the contrary scripture proves otherwise. 
With all due respect, Jodi, if the bible was clear on these issues we wouldn't be here discussing it. No, you are sure of your interpretation of what you read, as well you should be if you are to believe it.Quote Yeshua is physical, he is completely flesh and blood
We are never told that Jesus is completely flesh and blood. Instead we are told that, “…as to his human nature he is a descendant of David…..” but as to the spirit he is the Son of God. Think about it this way, if Jesus in indeed a human being – being born of a women – don't you think he also has a father? Was that father a sperm donor only? Or was he a father who contributed to the making and forming of his own Son? It's something to ponder, at the very least.Quote The bible is clear that Yeshua is who he is because Yah gave him the gift of His Spirit and that Spirit working in Yeshua made him like minded with Yah.
Again, the bible in this area may be clear to you because your view is the only one you see. But I assure you there are other views. It is just as likely that God had a Son and passed on his attributes as we understand conception, as it is for God to have used the one thing we understand completely (how to make a baby) and go through all the motions of pregnancy and everything to confuse us and have Jesus be *other than* his literal Son. Ha….Jesus conceived by a sperm donor, now that is something.Jodi, the Father has “qualified” us to be his children. Jesus did not need to be qualified, why do you think that is? If the Father just gave Jesus his spirit as a gift and called him his son – why couldn't he have done that with us as well? But it doesn't work that way, does it? We have to be adopted!
Quote The bible as I see it, refutes the idea that Yeshua is in Yah’s likeness because Yah made a seed of himself and implanted it in Mary.
It's OK, sis. We see things differently. The reason we see things differently is because the bible is open to many different views; it's not our fault if one of us, or all of us, get things wrong. We do the best we can and believe what we have become convinced of. This is partially why I am losing faith in the bible, itself. Thanks for the conversation and be sure that I will re-read your post again to make sure I didn't miss anything. This is an important subject to me, as you know, because it defines who we believe Jesus to be.God bless you real good!
MandySisters! Just want to add something, Mandy is right that all have a view of the Scripture, but one day we will all know the truth. In the millenium the truth will cover the earth like water covers the sea. Until then we all have a different version of the Bible, I belief.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (seek and you will find @ April 22 2008,04:56) Sisters! Just want to add something, Mandy is right that all have a view of the Scripture, but one day we will all know the truth. In the millenium the truth will cover the earth like water covers the sea. Until then we all have a different version of the Bible, I belief.
Peace and Love Irene
Agreed. But I wonder about this very idea this morning.Why didn't God do a better job at instructing his children? I know that when I want my children to follow rules, or to know something very important – I am very clear and there is no question as to what I am saying to them.
It's sort of like saying, you must make your mortgage payment or you will be homeless. And then not telling you how much that mortgage payment is! You have to guess and hope you are right. Ultimately hoping you will remain with a roof over your head. It's crazy.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 22 2008,05:00) Quote (seek and you will find @ April 22 2008,04:56) Sisters! Just want to add something, Mandy is right that all have a view of the Scripture, but one day we will all know the truth. In the millenium the truth will cover the earth like water covers the sea. Until then we all have a different version of the Bible, I belief.
Peace and Love Irene
Agreed. But I wonder about this very idea this morning.Why didn't God do a better job at instructing his children? I know that when I want my children to follow rules, or to know something very important – I am very clear and there is no question as to what I am saying to them.
It's sort of like saying, you must make your mortgage payment or you will be homeless. And then not telling you how much that mortgage payment is! You have to guess and hope you are right. Ultimately hoping you will remain with a roof over your head. It's crazy.
Mandy! Is it God tho. that is confusing us, or is it Satan through Humans that have translated the Bible? There are errors and why God lets us search in the dark, I have only one idea. I believe God is letting us do our thing that so when all the truths will be taught in the millenium, we will be ready to except it. What do you think? We then will know that we cannot live without God. Man has made such a mess out of things.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (seek and you will find @ April 22 2008,05:17) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 22 2008,05:00) Quote (seek and you will find @ April 22 2008,04:56) Sisters! Just want to add something, Mandy is right that all have a view of the Scripture, but one day we will all know the truth. In the millenium the truth will cover the earth like water covers the sea. Until then we all have a different version of the Bible, I belief.
Peace and Love Irene
Agreed. But I wonder about this very idea this morning.Why didn't God do a better job at instructing his children? I know that when I want my children to follow rules, or to know something very important – I am very clear and there is no question as to what I am saying to them.
It's sort of like saying, you must make your mortgage payment or you will be homeless. And then not telling you how much that mortgage payment is! You have to guess and hope you are right. Ultimately hoping you will remain with a roof over your head. It's crazy.
Mandy! Is it God tho. that is confusing us, or is it Satan through Humans that have translated the Bible? There are errors and why God lets us search in the dark, I have only one idea. I believe God is letting us do our thing that so when all the truths will be taught in the millenium, we will be ready to except it. What do you think? We then will know that we cannot live without God. Man has made such a mess out of things.
Peace and Love Irene
If what you say is true, and God is letting us muttle around in the dark so he can reveal the truth in the end……we cannot be held responsible for not following the One Truth, and 94 is wrong to tell Christians/believer's in general that they will perish for their wickedness if they do not follow God's laws or word. If that word and those laws are in question, pray tell, how can a child follow them?By the way, I'm not picking on 94 (I love that brother and he has taught me a lot), I'm just using his viewpoint to show what believing the bible lock-stock-and-barrel will promote.
Mandy! I wish I had all the answers, but I have not. But I do believe that we will have another chance of knowing the whole truth nothing but the truth. But I also believe that we have to believe in Christ and our Savior to be saved. It is a free gift from God in faith in Christ Jesus our Lord. But for those that never knew Jesus, will have a chance finally for the first time to learn about Jesus. How can a christian believe that those childreen that died before the reached Adulthood would forever burn in the Lake of Fire? That some preachers believe, but I do not. There is so much, how can we ever understand it all. So my advice to anybody is to have faith in Jesus and let Him lead you, you cant go wrong there.
Peace and Love IreneHey Mandy,
Logically speaking when a man and woman 'come together' to form a human being that means that they had sexual inner course.
So I don't think there is any logic I am asking you to ditch, unless you believe that YHWH and Mary had sex.
As well, logically speaking everything produces after it's own kind. God could very well make a Wuzzle, but this is not the logic that He has made of our reality to living things. At the time, Mary's conception was considered a miracle, by those that believed she was a virgin. Interesting how we can get the same outcome today. Virgin's can conceive through being artificially inseminated!
You said, ” Being “sinless” has never been our goal.”
We know that it is impossible for us to be without sin in our first life. But upon our resurrection we will receive the gift of immortality. The bible speaks to us in words calling us slaves to sin and that death will be the last enemy destroyed. Upon receiving Yah's Spirit and death no longer has dominion over our lives with fear, we too will be sinless creatures. We will live without sin. The hope of Yeshua's return is that when he comes he will rid sin. Christ died to wipe away our sins in order for us to be raised from the dead, this is our salvation. But there is much more to it then that. How does man come to be without sin? Our hope is not in just having immortality but it is in the type of living we will do in Yah's Holy Kingdom, where Yeshua will be king. The accomplishment of a joyful and peaceful earth will be through the workings of Yah's Spirit in every individual on the SAME LEVEL as Yah had working in Yeshua from his birth. The Spirit that was working in Yeshua and will be upon chosen individual at his return is called God's firstfruits of His Spirit.
Yeshua was the first human being given this preordained order of Yah's working Spirit. This working Spirit makes us Eternal Children. As the Spirit worked to make Yeshua sinless it will do the same for everyone, but each person in a preordained order.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
When the scripture speaks of Yeshua being Yah's only begotten Son, this says to me, when we understand the plan of God and the order of which He has predestined His Spirit, that Yeshua unlike anyone else had the working Spirit since his conception.
Romans 8:15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
Yeshua was the first to receive this SONSHIP of Yah's working Spirit, and those who die in Christ are testified to be children of YHWH because they too will receive this sonship.
I believe you take the simple truth away by making Yeshua into a half god. This simple truth being that we need, as Yeshua needed throughout his whole life, the Spirit of sonship working in us as it did him. Yeshua did not need to be half god to be our savior, he needed Yah's Spirit, and upon our receiving that gift of salvation we too are going to need that Spirit working in us.
Now I know what your are thinking, its simple to me but obviously it is not, because we are all disputing over it. It is not necessary for you to remind me the obvious, that other people don't think or see things the way I do. Would it be better for you if I used IMO more often? When I say, the simple truth, I am expressing how clear it is to me. Their are many aspects in the bible where I will put a stance as to my opinion, some are very clear while others not nearly as much.
Yeshua said he could do nothing of himself, but that he needed his Father. It just seems to me that if there is to be any significance to Yeshua being half God, it would be that he could actually be part God and not need his Father . The scripture points out that every Godly thing he did was not through him being born part God, but from our Father who art in heaven. If Yeshua was ever trying to establ
OOPS, somehow my fingers pushed the wrong buttons. So here is my actual finished post.
Hey Mandy,
Logically speaking when a man and woman 'come together' to form a human being that means that they had sexual inner course.
So I don't think there is any logic I am asking you to ditch, unless you believe that YHWH and Mary had sex.
As well, logically speaking everything produces after it's own kind. God could very well make a Wuzzle, but this is not the logic that He has made of our reality to living things. At the time, Mary's conception was considered a miracle, by those that believed she was a virgin. Interesting how we can get the same outcome today. Virgin's can conceive through being artificially inseminated!
You said, ” Being “sinless” has never been our goal.”
We know that it is impossible for us to be without sin in our first life. But upon our resurrection we will receive the gift of immortality. The bible speaks to us in words calling us slaves to sin and that death will be the last enemy destroyed. Upon receiving Yah's Spirit and death no longer has dominion over our lives with fear, we too will be sinless creatures. We will live without sin. The hope of Yeshua's return is that when he comes he will rid sin. Christ died to wipe away our sins in order for us to be raised from the dead, this is our salvation. But there is much more to it then that. How does man come to be without sin? Our hope is not in just having immortality but it is in the type of living we will do in Yah's Holy Kingdom, where Yeshua will be king. The accomplishment of a joyful and peaceful earth will be through the workings of Yah's Spirit in every individual on the SAME LEVEL as Yah had working in Yeshua from his birth. The Spirit that was working in Yeshua and will be working upon chosen individuals at his return is called God's firstfruits of the Spirit.
Yeshua was the first human being given this preordained order of Yah's working Spirit. This working Spirit makes us Eternal Children. As the Spirit worked to make Yeshua sinless it will do the same for everyone, but each person in a preordained order.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
When the scripture speaks of Yeshua being Yah's only begotten Son, this says to me, when we understand the plan of God and the order of which He has predestined His Spirit, that Yeshua unlike anyone else had the working Spirit since his conception.
Romans 8:15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
Yeshua was the first to receive this SONSHIP of Yah's working Spirit, and those who die in Christ are testified to be children of YHWH because they too will receive this sonship.
I believe you take the simple truth away by making Yeshua into a half god. This simple truth being that we need, as Yeshua needed throughout his whole life, the Spirit of sonship working in us as it did him. Yeshua did not need to be half god to be our savior, he needed Yah's Spirit, and upon us receiving that gift of salvation we too are going to need that Spirit working in us.
Now I know what your are thinking, its simple to me but obviously it is not, because we are all disputing over it. It is not necessary for you to remind me the obvious, that other people don't think or see things the way I do. Would it be better for you if I used IMO more often? When I say, the simple truth, I am expressing how clear it is to me. Their are many aspects in the bible where I will put a stance as to my opinion, some are very clear while others not nearly as much. I most certainly realize that my opinion is one of many, I don't live in a box.
Yeshua said he could do nothing of himself, but that he needed his Father. It just seems to me that if there was to be any significance to Yeshua being half God, it would be that he could actually be part God and not need his Father to do Everything. This is not the case however, Yeshua could do nothing of himself. So what advantage did he have being part God? Yeshua's advantage came through him by being given the first fruits of YHWH, the Spirit of Sonship!
New King James
Romans 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”New International Version
Romans 8:15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”Adopt means to take on, or accept, or embrace, and sonship is represented as the relationship of son to father.
The way I see it, is that Yeshua needed YHWH's Spirit just as much as we do, in order to be His eternal children. Whether we are humans through being born out of the dust, or from being born out of our mothers, all humans need our Creators's Spirit to be His children.
1Jo 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.Mt 12:18 “Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations.
Joh 3:34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.
Ac 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
Now, was God with Yeshua because Yeshua was part God, or was God with him because God's Spirit was working in him?
Ro 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs–heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
1John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
What is the SEED of God? It is His Spirit, which will be in us upon our resurrection as it was in Yeshua from the time of his conception.
Just the way I see it,
Peace to all, Jodi
Hey Jodi,
Our PM messenger isn't working – yours returned blank to me. Anyway, I thought I'd leave a note here for you.
These ideas surrounding conception will be one of the first studies I delve into (my favorite subject). You have given me alot to work with here and I thank you very much. I'll probably print these posts out and start from them. You're posts will be my jumping board sister!
I'm excited to get started.I feel the precious holy Spirit stirring within me again…..it's been a while. Praise the One who holds me in the shallow of his hand! Praise the One who provided a Way for me to live even tho I die! Praise Him all you kids out there!
Much love,
MandyQuote (Jodi @ May 20 2008,07:26) Romans 8:15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Yeshua was the first to receive this SONSHIP of Yah's working Spirit, and those who die in Christ are testified to be children of YHWH because they too will receive this sonship.
Yeshua said he could do nothing of himself, but that he needed his Father. It just seems to me that if there was to be any significance to Yeshua being half God, it would be that he could actually be part God and not need his Father to do Everything. This is not the case however, Yeshua could do nothing of himself. So what advantage did he have being part God? Yeshua's advantage came through him by being given the first fruits of YHWH, the Spirit of Sonship!
Woderful post my sis, Jodi.
What a great privilage to be called sons and daughter of Yah.
Peace to you.
AdamJust sharing my thoughts own the topics…God transfered the life of his son into the womb of Mary thru the amazaing gift of conception.
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French conceivre, from Latin concipere to take in, conceive, from com- + capere to take — more at heave
Date:
14th century
transitive verb
1 a: to become pregnant with (young) b: to cause to begin : originateSimply put… he thru his unimaginable power ..caused Mary's ovum to become fertilized thru with the ingredients necessary to form the human genetic equivalent of Jesus Christ..who because of this was genetically linked to the line of david and the promised seed of Abraham
Quote (dirtyknections @ May 30 2008,02:09) Just sharing my thoughts own the topics…God transfered the life of his son into the womb of Mary thru the amazaing gift of conception. Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French conceivre, from Latin concipere to take in, conceive, from com- + capere to take — more at heave
Date:
14th century
transitive verb
1 a: to become pregnant with (young) b: to cause to begin : originateSimply put… he thru his unimaginable power ..caused Mary's ovum to become fertilized thru with the ingredients necessary to form the human genetic equivalent of Jesus Christ..who because of this was genetically linked to the line of david and the promised seed of Abraham
DK,Your beliefs side with incarnation. I do not believe Jesus is an incarnation but rather a literal Son of God.
If a spirit son who was begotten before his physical birth is “transfered” into the womb of Mary, it is only logical that through the conception process this “transfer” will be ALTERED. As cells divide and Mary's DNA is added to the mix, the original thing that was transfered will be changed.
How many folks who believe this idea of incarnation are willing to admit that their original, preexistent spirit son can be changed? I venture to say not many. But unless you admit this, you are not willing to say Jesus underwent true conception and came in the flesh, imo. Instead, he was a “transfer” and an “incarnation”. This is hardly the description of a new born individual from conception to birth.
ORIGINATE: to take it's origin, begin, start.
ORIGINATOR: to give origin
ORIGIN: source, derived, first state of existence, parentage.God is Jesus' originator. That is why it can be said he was with God and was God in the beginning. He came from God just as any son does. God's part was mixed with Mary's part and Jesus was born! Just like all his brethren, in every way.
Hebrews 2:14
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death……Jesus was indeed a human man with flesh and blood because we are flesh and blood. This is not to say that he could not be divine as well. Even the disciples wanted to know, “What manner of man this is…..”.
Remember the bible says he took a lower form..aka fleshly..so incarnation no…transfered into a lower form..yes
Lower form from what?
From God there is only “lower”…..right? Incarnation is believed to be God growing side-by-side with human flesh inside of Mary. As a trinitarian, I was taught that Jesus was the Son of Man and the Son of God – he had a dual nature – neither nature was fused – because if it was Jesus would cease to be GOD.
I don't see how “transfering” is any different. If you think Jesus preexisted as something/anything before his birth, when he was added to the mix of true conception…..the end result would be fused with Mary. Thus, the transfer would be forever CHANGED.
So a question for you: do you believe that the preexisting Jesus changed after conception with Mary? If you do not, then you lean towards the idea of incarnation which says the two existed side-by-side (which is NOT a true conception), imo. Thanks.
Quote (malcolm ferris @ April 23 2006,12:44) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2006,21:53) Hi,
Scripture seems to state that Jesus was conceived in the womb of Mary. Many here are convinced instead a newly created conceptus was placed in the womb of Mary.
It matters in that if the second option was true;Mary was not his true biological mother
He had no human genetic material from Adam.
We have to ask in what ways he was truly like to us.Lk 1.31
“And behold you will conceive in your womb..”
Lk 2.21
“..his name was then callled Jesus, the name given by the angel before he was conceived in the womb..”
Lk 1.36
“..Elizabeth has also conceived a son in her old age..”There are a variety of words translated as “conceive”and the word used [4815 Sullambano ]has a variety of other meanings.
But in these verses above the same word is used.
It would seem then that the same biological process occurred in Elizabeth as occurred in Mary.
Who will say Elizabeth did not conceive?
The word conceive means to become pregnant, if a woman is impregnated in-vitro conception follows by this definition. This same word that is translated “conceive” is also translated and used to mean “take”, “caught” and “help” in other places in the new testament. She took the seed of God and bore it in her womb. That womb protected the growing child and provided all of the nutrients required for this process of growth.If Jesus were conceived by the means of a union of both the male genetic material of God (sperm) and the female (egg) of Mary then you have God committing an act of sexual procreation. Any such union under the Law of God's own authoring, made the two involved in such an act to be “one flesh”.
GENESIS 2:24
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.I CORINTHIANS 6:16
What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.Clearly the purpose of a man and woman forming a union in marriage is to have a family. So the union of marriage makes two in flesh to be one flesh – or one lineage of flesh, for we derive our fleshly lineage in this fashion.
Hence the words of the woman at the well and Jesus' response to them…JOHN 4:16-18
Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.For God to create a blood cell to produce His son in this fashion would be to make Himself the husband of Mary, a ridiculous notion. To have God bound to such requirements is foolish, He is the Creator, He is well able to create children out of stones! What is a stone but a collection of chemical and mineral elements? If God could make the world from nothing, by His Word, if He can make children from stones – (and the scripture says He could do it) Then why is it we insist that when it comes to producing the second Adam, He is now bound to our concept of how it must be done?
As I have said before, science today proves it is possible! in-vitro fertilization is a reality! That is to say that we can meddle in God's natural process of procreation and get it to work, yet God is not able to?…
Now no matter how hard one can argue that by some new and as before unheard of means He was able to fuse His seed, divine nature or whatever with the nature of the woman, to create a being who had both the nature of God and human nature. What you are describing is something supposedly done once and never again, therefore not provable, and subject to your own convictions that; this is how it surely must have been done.
For some reason it is abhorrent to many to think that Mary was in effect little more than the womb that bore the Son of God, the womb through which that creation derived nutrients to form a body…
Yet to these same people it is not abhorrent to consider God mixing His life by a sperm with human life through Mary by an egg. Nor does it seem to matter to them that she is a product of fallen creation, which was separated from the God by sin in the garden. How on earth can Jesus be born sinless if a part of his intrinsic makeup is from the contribution of a mother who was born in sin?PSALMS 51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.Mary was born in sin like the rest of us, she needed the rebirth like the rest of the disciples did she not?
Of course the argument comes back, but it was the Spirit of God coming into the egg of the virgin, so it was not a physical act, not a physical union.
If you are to have a regular human being like us in every way then it takes both sperm and egg to produce this. If the sperm is taken out of the equation you have something irregular.
So you allow that God therefore did something irregular, yet He could not have gone the next step and created a completed cell in the womb of the virgin – ensuring therefore that His son was Holy and without sin.
Also to address the whole spiritual union idea, then Mary would be the original Bride of Christ, and this was possible before the atonement for sin had been given?
I had to bring this past post to the front. Mainly because this member is against what I believe. He has made some good points. I would like to counter what he has said here later tonight. But I wanted to bump it if anyone else has any interest in tackling it.Thanks,
Mandy
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
