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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 25 2007,06:35) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 25 2007,04:03) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 25 2007,03:07) He is not the Father but he is also God.
I could almost understand it if we just kept it to the fact that because God is a type of being, and he had a Son, that his son would be God too. This makes sense to me. For God could beget after his own “kind.” That is, of course, if he didn't have help from a human women named, Mary!But because Jesus came to us through Mary, as well as God, I find it hard to believe Jesus is “just” God.
Also, there is only “one” God. And so we come to an unexplainable (even though we use many words) situation whereby we say that this one person who is God, also had another person who is also this SAME GOD. For God is One.
And yet another problem exists when Paul says there is only One God, and he says this God is the Father.
You might be able to see why many are confused on this, including yours truly.
not3What you are not seeing is the spirit of a man is the man.
Man is Spirit who has a soul who lives in a body.
Our bodys are tents that we live in. Our bodys (tents) will one day be changed.
Jesus is Spirit. He was and is the “Word” which is Spirit that was with God. The flesh did not change nor alter nor diminish his Spirit. How could it? That which is flesh is flesh. That which is Spirit is Spirit.
If you die then according to the scriptures you (your Spirit)will go to hades or to be with Jesus, but your flesh will go to the dust until the ressurection.
Jesus flesh died not his eternal Spirit, for he went into hades for 3 days and three nights, but his flesh did not see corruption.
The problem I think, is people see Yeshua and men in one dimension. Flesh. But men are not flesh. They are Spirit/soul that lives in a body. God is Spirit. This is why men are created in his image, not because they are flesh, but because they are Spirit/soul.
Prov 20:27
The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.Pss 103:1
Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, [bless] his holy name.Lk 1:46
And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.Do a study on the Spirit/soul of man. It is interesting.
Man is three dimensional. For the flesh also has a mind, that little thing in our heads we call a brain. To say the least, we are complicated creatures What a mighty creator.
Wow WJ that sounds good! But are you saying we~our spirit~ doesn't die?I once had someone tell me that's what's wrong today God ran out of spirits to put in people so the people of today were animals.
The spirit returs to God who gave it. Yet it is appointed for man to die once then judgement.
Not to mention that those who are “a sleep” in Jesus will rise before we who are alive.
So how does what you say work?
Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 25 2007,09:40) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 25 2007,06:35) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 25 2007,04:03) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 25 2007,03:07) He is not the Father but he is also God.
I could almost understand it if we just kept it to the fact that because God is a type of being, and he had a Son, that his son would be God too. This makes sense to me. For God could beget after his own “kind.” That is, of course, if he didn't have help from a human women named, Mary!But because Jesus came to us through Mary, as well as God, I find it hard to believe Jesus is “just” God.
Also, there is only “one” God. And so we come to an unexplainable (even though we use many words) situation whereby we say that this one person who is God, also had another person who is also this SAME GOD. For God is One.
And yet another problem exists when Paul says there is only One God, and he says this God is the Father.
You might be able to see why many are confused on this, including yours truly.
not3What you are not seeing is the spirit of a man is the man.
Man is Spirit who has a soul who lives in a body.
Our bodys are tents that we live in. Our bodys (tents) will one day be changed.
Jesus is Spirit. He was and is the “Word” which is Spirit that was with God. The flesh did not change nor alter nor diminish his Spirit. How could it? That which is flesh is flesh. That which is Spirit is Spirit.
If you die then according to the scriptures you (your Spirit)will go to hades or to be with Jesus, but your flesh will go to the dust until the ressurection.
Jesus flesh died not his eternal Spirit, for he went into hades for 3 days and three nights, but his flesh did not see corruption.
The problem I think, is people see Yeshua and men in one dimension. Flesh. But men are not flesh. They are Spirit/soul that lives in a body. God is Spirit. This is why men are created in his image, not because they are flesh, but because they are Spirit/soul.
Prov 20:27
The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.Pss 103:1
Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, [bless] his holy name.Lk 1:46
And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.Do a study on the Spirit/soul of man. It is interesting.
Man is three dimensional. For the flesh also has a mind, that little thing in our heads we call a brain. To say the least, we are complicated creatures What a mighty creator.
Wow WJ that sounds good! But are you saying we~our spirit~ doesn't die?
kenrchWe know that we live on after the death of our bodys. There are a multitude of scriptures that support this.
[19] There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
[20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
[21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
[25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
[26] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
[27] Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
[28] For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
[29] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
[31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.Here we see after they died they went to two seperate places to await the final judgment.
2 Cor 2:5-8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.Rev 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?1 Peter 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;So we see we are spirt beings that lives on after death until the ressurection of our bodys.
Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 25 2007,09:49) I once had someone tell me that's what's wrong today God ran out of spirits to put in people so the people of today were animals. The spirit returs to God who gave it. Yet it is appointed for man to die once then judgement.
Not to mention that those who are “a sleep” in Jesus will rise before we who are alive.
So how does what you say work?
kenrchTo us they are asleep for their bodys rest untill the resurrection.
Believers in Christ are resting in him for they are with him.
Jesus said…
Jn 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.Jesus says we “Have” eternal life whcih means our spirits do not die and will not die the second death spoken of in Revelations at the great white throne Judgment.
When we were born again our “Old man” (spirit) died and was raised in newness of life.
Jn 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.Rom 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.We have already recieved this gift.
Jn 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?Jesus says we will never die. Of course we know our bodys die but we now have eternal life and our Spirits never die.
But our body and Spirit will be reunited and raised up at the last day as Jesus says and according to 1 Cor 15:35-55 our bodys will be changed and fashioned like his glorious body.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 26 2007,06:11) Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 25 2007,09:49) I once had someone tell me that's what's wrong today God ran out of spirits to put in people so the people of today were animals. The spirit returs to God who gave it. Yet it is appointed for man to die once then judgement.
Not to mention that those who are “a sleep” in Jesus will rise before we who are alive.
So how does what you say work?
kenrchTo us they are asleep for their bodys rest untill the resurrection.
Believers in Christ are resting in him for they are with him.
Jesus said…
Jn 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.Jesus says we “Have” eternal life whcih means our spirits do not die and will not die the second death spoken of in Revelations at the great white throne Judgment.
When we were born again our “Old man” (spirit) died and was raised in newness of life.
Jn 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.Rom 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.We have already recieved this gift.
Jn 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?Jesus says we will never die. Of course we know our bodys die but we now have eternal life and our Spirits never die.
But our body and Spirit will be reunited and raised up at the last day as Jesus says and according to 1 Cor 15:35-55 our bodys will be changed and fashioned like his glorious body.
You know WJ People are quick to point out that we are as animals. We go to the same place?In the OT that was true but NOW that our sins have been paid for, isn't it a little different?
According to man (doctors) I could go at anytime
But I have such a peace about it! It's hard not to think as you do! WHAT?! Agree with WJ? Believe it or not WJ I love you in the LORD! I know you are sincere
I believe it was Paul who said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD.
Their are good arguments on both sides I suppose I will find out
Bless you WJ,
Ken
W.J. Great understanding of God's Word and I do agree with it. You given sciptures to prove your point about us being spirit is good. In order to communicate with God We would have to be spirit, would you not think so? Can an animal communicate with God. Animal have instinct only. We are a chosen people by God and I am forever thankful for it. And I thank Christ Jesus for coming to this earth to die for our sins so we can have Eternal Life.
Much appreciated.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Oct. 26 2007,08:56) W.J. Great understanding of God's Word and I do agree with it. You given sciptures to prove your point about us being spirit is good. In order to communicate with God We would have to be spirit, would you not think so? Can an animal communicate with God. Animal have instinct only. We are a chosen people by God and I am forever thankful for it. And I thank Christ Jesus for coming to this earth to die for our sins so we can have Eternal Life.
Much appreciated.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Im4TruthThanks!
Dont get much encouragement around here!
Quote God is a title for a particular type of being. Jesus is the only Begotten Son of God. He is not the Father but he is also God. WJ;
Greetings. I hope all is well with you.
In John 10:33 the Jew said for a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy, because thou being a man, makest thyself God. If Jesus ever had an opportunity to respond that he was God, this certainly would have been the time. In verse 36 Jesus responded you are accusing me of blasphemy because I said I am the Son of God. Jesus spoke of God many times throughout the gospels, he never includes himself. He is at the right hand of God in heaven but he is entirely distinct from God the Father.
God involves Christ in all things pertaining to what he has revealed to us in heaven and earth. God begat Christ his Son. The Father existed before the Son. The Son has always been dependent on the Father. The Father has never been dependent on the Son. These are the rock solid truths that Jesus revealed to us.
Jesus said he was returning to where he was before. He said he was sent from the Father in heaven and that he came down from heaven. If he was not the Son of God in heaven first he misrepresented the truth, which is impossible.
You have one or two scriptures that can reasonably refer to Jesus as God like John 1:1 and John 20:28, but you're making conclusions from those few scriptures that contradict what Jesus taught above. The gospel is full of how Jesus is subject to the Father even as his God. If the Father is the God of Christ, Christ cannot be God as you conclude from a few scriptures. The truth that is concluded by Paul is that Christ was exalted by God and made Lord of heaven and earth to the glory of God the Father, not that he was God himself in the same degree that the Father is God. If he were God in the same degree as God the Father he would be God himself and not his Son. That's a denial of the sonship of Christ, albeit inadvertently.
Take Care
Steven
Steve It is interesting to see that W.J. has some good points about His Posts. I also see that when it comes to what Jesus is I think we all kind of misunderstand. If we can remember that He is the Son of God and not the Almighty God, but never the less God by name just as I have a last name. If we can look at it in that manner, all scriptures line up. Jesus has said many times that the Father is greater then He is. Not only that we one day will also be God, the Family of God. 1Corinth.15:28.
Peace and Love Mrs.
For WJ,
Christ was conceived in Mary of the Holy Spirit.Mt1
18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.19Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
I brought this over from the Trinity thread. Martian says:
My personal opinion is that God created a human seed to place in Mary's womb to fertalize her egg. Whatever the process was it is very clear in many mant clear scriptures that the end result was 100% human and made like his brethren in EVERY WAY. This is the only way in which Jesus could fullfill His mission as the example and foreunner for the rest of man.
Hi Martian,
This is another one of my favorite topics! There are many views on this, and after years of studying it I'm convinced that the bible supports many different/varied views. So it is difficult to come up with one truth on the matter. That right there tells me that God doesn't want us to know exactly how it all came down.
I do have my own ideas and they are laced throughout this thread. I do believe that God provided what was needed, but I do not believe he provided a “human” sperm. The reason I believe this is because then Jesus would not truly be God's Son (for God is not human).
I'm not sure why I have to bump this again? I just posted a few hours ago in this thread? I've never figured out how heavennet clears the board and when?
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 20 2008,15:32) I brought this over from the Trinity thread. Martian says: My personal opinion is that God created a human seed to place in Mary's womb to fertalize her egg. Whatever the process was it is very clear in many mant clear scriptures that the end result was 100% human and made like his brethren in EVERY WAY. This is the only way in which Jesus could fullfill His mission as the example and foreunner for the rest of man.
Hi Martian,
This is another one of my favorite topics! There are many views on this, and after years of studying it I'm convinced that the bible supports many different/varied views. So it is difficult to come up with one truth on the matter. That right there tells me that God doesn't want us to know exactly how it all came down.
I do have my own ideas and they are laced throughout this thread. I do believe that God provided what was needed, but I do not believe he provided a “human” sperm. The reason I believe this is because then Jesus would not truly be God's Son (for God is not human).
Hi Mandy,Well you can probably recollect where I stand on this, Martian and I have drawn the same conclusions about Yah supplying Mary with a human sperm for her egg.
I am guessing your understanding comes from the fact that the bible says that Yeshua is Yah's only begotten Son.
The problem I have with this, and I think we have probably discussed this before, is that if we are going to say that Yeshua is part the substance of Yah, then that would not make him fully human would it? Yeshua is physical and Yah is not, so how could Yeshua be of the same substance as Yah? Yeshua is however, of one mind with Yah. Yeshua is the only begotten Son of Yah in his spirit, in his mind.
Yeshua was given powers of Yah, like Moses was temporarily given some of Yah's powers. Yeshua did not have these powers because he was part God, Yah gave these to him later in his life. There are to many things that just don't seem to add up if Yeshua were to be literal part Yah.
Mandy I can see where your thinking is coming from, I really do, but knowing that Yeshua is fully human then it must mean that he is Yah's only begotten son according to his spirit.
Hi Jodi,
Yes, I remember that you and I had a few conversations about this topic.
Quote Yeshua was given powers of Yah, like Moses was temporarily given some of Yah's powers.
But remember that Moses ruled over the house of God as a servant. Jesus rules as a Son. There is a difference in their status to God. What do you think that status might be?Quote Yeshua did not have these powers because he was part God, Yah gave these to him later in his life.
We agree here. Jesus told us that God was greater than himself. We are told in Philippians that he did not use all of his privileges. Of course I understand there are a zillion different ways to interpret the Phil. passage.Quote There are to many things that just don't seem to add up if Yeshua were to be literal part Yah.
Conversely, there are many things that seem to add up because he is!Quote but knowing that Yeshua is fully human then it must mean that he is Yah's only begotten son according to his spirit.
Where does it say that Jesus is fully human? Because he was made like his brother's in every way does not mean that he was human. It could also mean that he was literally “made”, meaning, conceived, like his brother's. Of course as Jesus “source”, God provided what was needed. How else would he have a Son? It's not that far of a stretch. It's the literal way of looking at things.Yeshua came in the flesh, he was not part flesh, he was fully flesh and blood. Yah is not flesh and blood, so how in the world is Yeshua the same substance? Scripture proves that Yeshua is not the same substance as Yah, unless you want to say that Yah is also flesh and blood.
Lu 24:39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.
Joh 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
1Jo 4:2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
Eph 2:15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,
Heb 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death–that is, the devil
2 John1:7 Many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh; any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist!
John 1:12 but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God — to those believing in his name, 13 who — not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but — of God were begotten.
Romans 8:10 But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit that dwells in you. 12 So then, brothers and sisters, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received a spirit of adoption. When we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 it is that very Spirit bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ—if, in fact, we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.
Yeshua’s conception was caused through the Holy Spirit, and from his birth Yeshua was led by the Spirit in a way that no man had ever been led. Being fully led by the Spirit Yeshau was one with Yah in spirit meaning his mind.
As the Spirit beared witness with Yehsua’s spirit from his conception this gave him the title of the ‘only begotten son’. The bible is clear however that we to are children of God if indeed our spirit is led by the Spirit of Yah.
2Co 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Collossians1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. 21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation–
How is it that Yeshua was the image of Yah?
Yeshua was not the physical image or likeness of Yah, he was spiritually like minded with Him, he got this way by being given Yah’s Spirit not by being of the same substance.
Matthew 12:18 “Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations.
Lu 1:80 – And the child grew and became strong in spirit; and he lived in the desert until he appeared publicly to Israel.
Lu 2:52 And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
Mandy the bible is clear as to the physical and mental substance of Yeshua and it in no way adds up to him being part of the same substance of his Father, on the contrary scripture proves otherwise. Yeshua is physical, he is completely flesh and blood, his mind learns and grows into his Father’s favor. The bible is clear that Yeshua is who he is because Yah gave him the gift of His Spirit and that Spirit working in Yeshua made him like minded with Yah. The bible as I see it, refutes the idea that Yeshua is in Yah’s likeness because Yah made a seed of himself and implanted it in Mary.
Good morning, Jodi. I can see you've been busy!
Whoops! I pushed the wrong button. I wasn't ready to post yet. OK, so see below post. This one will just be a “Good morning” post!
I better have some more coffee first!
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