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Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 22 2007,17:44) Jodi, I watched the Wuzzles video – too cute.
Actually you are correct, Jesus is a mixture of God and Man. What came of that union is a Divine Man – the first one of it's kind. A firstfruit, if you will. We will follow.
The disciples called Jesus a man, this is true. But they also recognized that he was not like any man they knew! He was a different kind of man. He walked on water and calmed the elements. He had food to eat that they knew nothing about. He could watch and hear the Father at work. He was God's personal representative. He was divine; he was man. He was God's Son.
I suppose that Jesus would fit in quite well in Wuzzle Land.
Jesus did those miracles not of his own power, but through the power of God, so that the people would know that God was with him, not so the people would know that Jesus was part God!A divine man is made not by his biological makeup, but by his mind-set. If it is a matter of biology to perfect man, then why not make us all part God, part Mary?
Lu 2:52And Jesus increased in wisdom and in years, and in divine and human favor.
As Jesus gained more wisdom and understanding, God became more and more pleased with Him.
Why was Jesus tempted? If human divinity was a matter of being part biologically God, then why would Jesus need to be tempted and taught?
Jesus' divinity was expressed by his mind-set, his complete loyalty to God and his faith in God's will.
Mandy, if Jesus is first of his kind, are you then saying that when we are resurrected we too are made part biologically God?
The Holy Spirit was working in Jesus, that was God in Jesus. Jesus wanting to follow God's will, was the workings of Jesus' Free will in Jesus.
The purpose of God's work in Jesus is so that we too by our free will choose to have faith in God's will and therefore want to have God's Spirit working in us as well.
From Adam to Jesus, the message is that time, experience and knowledge are needed for faith and righteousness, not the biological makeup of God.
When we set our mind on divine things and not earthly things, God will work out the rest, like immortality!
Mr 8:33 But turning and looking at his disciples, he rebuked Peter and said, “Get behind me, Satan! For you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things.”
Jodi So what you are saying that Jesus was not by Abraham was, what you are saying that Jesus did not create all things, what you are saying that Jesus was not perfect in every way, but became perfect? Well Scriptures given teaches me differently. You are denying so many scriptures. Mainly
Col. 1:15,16,17-18
Rev.3:14
Prov.8:22-30Peace and Love Mrs.
Hi Jodi,
As you know, I respect your opinon on things and so I'm happy to be discussing this with you.
Quote Jesus did those miracles not of his own power, but through the power of God, so that the people would know that God was with him, not so the people would know that Jesus was part God!
Oh, of course Jesus did these things by the power that enabled him which is our heavenly Father. What I meant is that the common folk of the time, including the disciples, did not see Jesus as a common man. Even Peter recognized that the Living God was Jesus' Father.Quote A divine man is made not by his biological makeup, but by his mind-set. If it is a matter of biology to perfect man, then why not make us all part God, part Mary?
You misunderstand. I said that it wasn't a matter of Jesus being perfect that he is biologically God's Son. However, I disagree with you that we can become “divine” simply by our mind-set. If this were possible, God could have spared the life of his dear Son who begged for his very life (three times, I might add)!Quote Jesus' divinity was expressed by his mind-set, his complete loyalty to God and his faith in God's will.
I'm sorry, we disagree yet again. Jesus' divinity was given him at his royal birth – he was born a king. He was born the *only* Son of God Almighty. Remember that Adam was a son of God, but he was not born “of” God. Adam came from the dirt of creation; Jesus came from a conception where God, himself, Fathered Jesus. There is a difference for those who will look into these things with God's holy spirit as their guide.Quote Mandy, if Jesus is first of his kind, are you then saying that when we are resurrected we too are made part biologically God?
This is the beauty of our future family – we will be adopted. Jesus does not need to be adopted for he was born into the family. The scriptures teach us that we will be like him and what we are is not yet revealed, so we must wait for our adoption to find out what these things mean. But it only stands to reason that if we are adopted, when we are adopted – we will belong.Quote From Adam to Jesus, the message is that time, experience and knowledge are needed for faith and righteousness, not the biological makeup of God. When we set our mind on divine things and not earthly things, God will work out the rest, like immortality!
With all due respect, you make it sound like this righteousness is something we can somehow muster up ourselves? All we have to do is have the right mind-set? Of course this is not possible, nor is it what scripture shows us in the death of God's Son. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Jesus was revealed so he could destroy the work of the enemy! Without Jesus, we could not stand……no matter how hard we set our minds on things above. We have to be re-born from above, and ultimately, we have to be adopted into our heavenly family. This is something that we cannot do ourselves.Of course the verse you shared shows the humanity in us all. Peter opened his big, fat mouth and spouted off. Jesus corrected him. However this has nothing to do with why Jesus was the literal Son of God OR how Peter could also be divine if he learned to control his tongue.
Jodi, I have a couple questions for you if you have time:
1. If Jesus is simply a human man, why didn't God allow Joseph to father Jesus? After all, Joseph is of the line of David, and I'm certain he was willing. It would have spared Mary and Jo a lot of pain and embarassment had God chose to let Joseph do the honors.
2. Adam will need to be adopted, along with everyone on this earth – why did Jesus not need to be re-born and ultimately adopted?Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 23 2007,08:44) Hi WJ, Quote No one here is denying his natural conception.
In order to believe the Trinity, you have to deny natural conception. Natural conception mixes DNA of both parents to create a new being. If Jesus always existed as the second person of the One God, then when he was transfered into the womb of Mary and underwent *true* conception……he would be altered; no longer existing in the same way that he did before. Trinitarians do not believe this happened, therefore they deny *true* conception.Quote Yet you say he was not concieved like us for the Father was his daddy and not man. Well how can you say your idea of conception is right and everyone else is wrong.
Again you say he is a divine man, which means his conception was not like ours was it?
I've had this converstaion with David a few times. What it boils down to is the “virgin” part of the conception is the miracle for all things are possible with God. However, Mary's conception and subsequent pregnancy went as status quo. The angel, Gab, even likened her pregnancy unto her cousins pregnancy (also a miracle). But Jesus was born in the usual fashion and was the Son of his parents.God provided what was needed (sperm). This is what a “source” does (they provided what is needed).
Tell me, WJ, what is more likely:
1. God miraculously provided a sperm so that he could father a child in the natural order of things so that all would understand that the holy child to be born was indeed the Son of God; the firstfruit of all that would follow?
OR
2. God seperated his three persons, incarnated one of them into a womb of a virgin where this person grew side-by-side with humanity. Being careful not to follow the standard for true conception – this being did not mix with the human DNA to become a new individual, but instead only took on flesh and remained what it was previous to conception? Being born God in flesh, instead of a true son of his parents?
not3 Just thought I would bring this conversation over into this thread since it is mostly about coneption.You say…
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In order to believe the Trinity, you have to deny natural conception.Your opinion. I could also say that if you deny that Jesus came in the flesh then you are of the spirit of antichrist.
You say…
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Natural conception mixes DNA of both parents to create a new being.But jesus conception is not a “natural conception” is it?
You say…
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If Jesus always existed as the second person of the One God, then when he was transfered into the womb of Mary and underwent *true* conception……he would be altered; no longer existing in the same way that he did before. Trinitarians do not believe this happened, therefore they deny *true* conception.Says who? Gods Spirit lives in you dosnt he? He lives in yoiur body dosnt he? Is Gods spirit altered or changed?
Did God have to be born in you? No your Spirit had to be born again then God could live in you by his spirit!
If Gods Spirit can come inside of you then why can't Jesus who is also Spirit enter into the body that was conceived of the Holy Spirit in Mary?
Yoiu say…
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I've had this converstaion with David a few times. What it boils down to is the “virgin” part of the conception is the miracle for all things are possible with God.I am glad you believe that “ALL THINGS” are possible with God, including taking on the likeness of sinfull flesh.
You say…
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However, Mary's conception and subsequent pregnancy went as status quo. The angel, Gab, even likened her pregnancy unto her cousins pregnancy (also a miracle). But Jesus was born in the usual fashion and was the Son of his parents.How can you possibly compare the two. Mary a virgin. Elezabeth not. Mary concieved by the Holy Spirit. Elizabeth not.
You say…
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God provided what was needed (sperm). This is what a “source” does (they provided what is needed).So you say and believe. Scipture please?
You say…
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Tell me, WJ, what is more likely:
1. God miraculously provided a sperm so that he could father a child in the natural order of things so that all would understand that the holy child to be born was indeed the Son of God; the firstfruit of all that would follow?
OR
2. God seperated his three persons, incarnated one of them into a womb of a virgin where this person grew side-by-side with humanity. Being careful not to follow the standard for true conception – this being did not mix with the human DNA to become a new individual, but instead only took on flesh and remained what it was previous to conception? Being born God in flesh, instead of a true son of his parents?Neither! As I said Jesus is also Spirit which you are ignoring!
You are trying to limit God the creator to just another natural conception, only God just added the sperm like they do in labs for test tube babys.
Does God have sperm. HMMM? It must be spiritual sperm. For if it was natural then Jesus would be a man in every way like us.
Sorry not3, your belief leaves a lot of unanswered questions!
Quote (IM4Truth @ Oct. 23 2007,06:40) Jodi So what you are saying that Jesus was not by Abraham was, what you are saying that Jesus did not create all things, what you are saying that Jesus was not perfect in every way, but became perfect? Well Scriptures given teaches me differently. You are denying so many scriptures. Mainly Col. 1:15,16,17-18
Rev.3:14
Prov.8:22-30Peace and Love Mrs.
Hello IM4Truth,Not sure what you meant when you said, “Jesus was not by Abraham was”, but yes I believe that Jesus did not create all things. I believe that God created all things through Jesus. What I mean by that is, God would not have created heaven and earth if He did not foreknow that He would have perfect men and woman to dwell in it. Heaven and earth was not created for the First Adam and those people to follow, but for the Second Adam
and those that would follow him.Yes Jesus BECAME perfect and did so through suffering as the bible clearly teaches. There seems to be a little bit more to being considered perfect, in God's eyes, then just being in a state without sin.
Hebrews 2:10 It was fitting that God, for whom and through whom all things exist, in bringing many children to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Hebrews 5:8-9 Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered;and having been made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him,
Once again, Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and in years, and in divine and human favor.
Jodi What I meant was that Jesus was before Abraham, sorry I spelled that wrong.
I would really like to explain to you what I men, but I feel to sick and weak right now. But I think I did that before.Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 23 2007,08:24) Quote From Adam to Jesus, the message is that time, experience and knowledge are needed for faith and righteousness, not the biological makeup of God. When we set our mind on divine things and not earthly things, God will work out the rest, like immortality!
With all due respect, you make it sound like this righteousness is something we can somehow muster up ourselves? All we have to do is have the right mind-set? Of course this is not possible, nor is it what scripture shows us in the death of God's Son. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Jesus was revealed so he could destroy the work of the enemy! Without Jesus, we could not stand……no matter how hard we set our minds on things above. We have to be re-born from above, and ultimately, we have to be adopted into our heavenly family. This is something that we cannot do ourselves.
Really quickly I just want to clarify this part because I believe I have been misunderstood.Of course we cannot muster up righteousness by ourselves, I did say that after we show Him our faith God Works out the rest.
Where does our faith come from? I believe that faith comes from our mind, it is our MIND that accepts God. Our mind and heart calls on the name of Jesus, would you not agree. God reveals things to our mind, but it is given to us to accept those things which have been revealed. When we accept those things and work towards showing Him we accept them, we are given more gifts of His Spirit, including immortality.
What I mean when I say time, experience and knowledge are needed for faith and righteousness, is that God cannot instantaneously create a righteous human being, and a human being cannot instantaneously have faith in God. This is because we are limited, not being all powerful knowing beings as God is. Therefore God is limited in His instruction of our Free Will minds, which means time, experience and knowledge is a necessity that God must give mankind in a very strategic manner, in order to establish faith and make us righteous.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 23 2007,08:24) Jodi, I have a couple questions for you if you have time: 1. If Jesus is simply a human man, why didn't God allow Joseph to father Jesus? After all, Joseph is of the line of David, and I'm certain he was willing. It would have spared Mary and Jo a lot of pain and embarassment had God chose to let Joseph do the honors.
2. Adam will need to be adopted, along with everyone on this earth – why did Jesus not need to be re-born and ultimately adopted?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 02 2007,09:36)
Thanks, Jodi. I will have time later this evening to respond.One quick thought: everyone is “son” to God through Adam, right? Jesus is also a descendent of Adam (then David and so on), however, there was an intervention on the part of God in the production of this one “son” who is Jesus. God used his own spirit to help conceive the child.
If a human sperm was needed to join with the human egg…….why not just let Joseph father the boy?
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That is a good and legitimate question and I believe the bible provides the answer. If Jesus was the biological son of Joseph he would receive the curse from being a descendant of Coniah/Jeconiah (Matthew 1 shows Joseph’s biological connection to Coniah).Jeremiah 22:27 But they shall not return to the land to which they long to return. 28 Is this man Coniah a despised broken pot, a vessel no one wants? Why are he and his offspring hurled out and cast away in a land that they do not know? 29 O land, land, land, hear the word of the Lord! 30 Thus says the Lord: Record this man as childless, a man who shall not succeed in his days; for none of his offspring shall succeed in sitting on the throne of David, and ruling again in Judah.
However, being adopted by Joseph makes Jesus a legal air to the Royal line of David’s throne. It all seems to work out quite nicely, with Mary having the blood of David, and Joseph having the Royal line of David through adoption!
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What made Jesus special was God's Spirit working in him. The virgin birth was a matter of getting around a curse, so the Jews would have an excepting legal heir to the throne.And to answer your second question-
Jesus never became a child of wrath, through remaining sinless, he remained a child of God. The rest of us are sinners and are lost children.Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will– 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace
Our adoption has nothing to do with biology and everything to do with sin. If Adam had not sinned he would not need to be adopted through Christ.
We are adopted-accepted as sons and daughters by God because Jesus washed away our sins, no longer making us children of wrath.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 22 2007,17:36) Hi bro, Quote I'm trying to explain that if Jesus were God's biological Son then He certainly had inherited Something from His Father. His eyes…nose…something. If Jesus was a supernatural…And Being A Biological Son Of God….Then He Had to Have been A “Supernatural” Person.
Being a supernatural person and tempted then it would not be the same as ADAM being tempted OR us.
God+God=God
God+Man=Divine ManJesus humbled himself and did not use his privileges as the Son of God. Therefore just as we are tempted, he was tempted. Just as we will die, he died. Just as we will be resurrected, he is already resurrected! Just as Jesus will inherit from his Father, we will also inherit.
Quote only God used Mary instead of starting with dust.
If you believe this, then please answer this – why didn't God allow Joseph to be the physical Father of Jesus?Quote Spiritually Jesus was God's SON but physically He was the son of David through Mary.
Interstingly enough, Jesus was the son of David through Joseph's line, not Mary's.Quote It IS interesting for sure. I believe Jesus was the Son of God just as we would be Sons/Daughters of God if we had not sinned.
Ken, you have had several different sentences that have made me ponder over the last month. This is one of them. It is true that if sin never entered into the world, we would all be God's children. So what is the difference now that we are awaiting our adoptions through Christ? I believe it has to do with a deeper intimacy with our Father. A deeper belonging. Better promises and covenants…..if there wasn't something wrong with the first, then second wouldn't have come. But this is something to ponder.Quote Interstingly enough, Jesus was the son of David through Joseph's line, not Mary's. Well then Jesus did not have any of David's bloodline did He. Joseph had nothing to do with Jesus' birth. So if David's bloodline came through Joseph then Jesus was not of royal blood.
Mary had to be of the lineage of david if Jesus was the son of David.
Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Again Joseph had NOTHING to do with Jesus birth so How is Jesus called son of David?
This was explained to me gees years and years ago and I don't remember how but they had scripture showing that Mary was a decendent of David also. I don't know the scriptures or where they are at AND I'm not going to look for them BUT If Jesus is a decendent of David then it had to come from Mary. Who else?
Perhaps somone on the forum will know, anyone?
Hi WJ,
Quote Your opinion. I could also say that if you deny that Jesus came in the flesh then you are of the spirit of antichrist.
I have never denied that Jesus came in the flesh. He was born, wasn't he?
Quote But jesus conception is not a “natural conception” is it?
I believe that it is.Oops, I wasn't done posting to you WJ…….
Quote I am glad you believe that “ALL THINGS” are possible with God, including taking on the likeness of sinfull flesh.
Of course I believe all things are possible (God could make children out of stone if he wanted to), but tell me why it would be more beneficial for God to come himself in a body that ordinarily would belong to a new individual? Why confuse matters? And what is the benefit versus Jesus being the true SON of God.Quote How can you possibly compare the two.
I didn't, Gabriel did.Quote You say…Quote God provided what was needed (sperm). This is what a “source” does (they provided what is needed).
So you say and believe. Scipture please?
I'm not sure what you want scripture for? That God is the source of Jesus, his Son? Are not all Father's the source of their children?Quote Sorry not3, your belief leaves a lot of unanswered questions!
What are your questions, specifically, and I'll see if I can answer them? And you'll have to forgive me a little because I am looking at this from a non-trinitarian perspective. Those questions have already been answered for me and I have moved on.Quote (Jodi @ Oct. 23 2007,10:17) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 23 2007,08:24) Quote From Adam to Jesus, the message is that time, experience and knowledge are needed for faith and righteousness, not the biological makeup of God. When we set our mind on divine things and not earthly things, God will work out the rest, like immortality!
With all due respect, you make it sound like this righteousness is something we can somehow muster up ourselves? All we have to do is have the right mind-set? Of course this is not possible, nor is it what scripture shows us in the death of God's Son. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Jesus was revealed so he could destroy the work of the enemy! Without Jesus, we could not stand……no matter how hard we set our minds on things above. We have to be re-born from above, and ultimately, we have to be adopted into our heavenly family. This is something that we cannot do ourselves.
Really quickly I just want to clarify this part because I believe I have been misunderstood.Of course we cannot muster up righteousness by ourselves, I did say that after we show Him our faith God Works out the rest.
Where does our faith come from? I believe that faith comes from our mind, it is our MIND that accepts God. Our mind and heart calls on the name of Jesus, would you not agree. God reveals things to our mind, but it is given to us to accept those things which have been revealed. When we accept those things and work towards showing Him we accept them, we are given more gifts of His Spirit, including immortality.
What I mean when I say time, experience and knowledge are needed for faith and righteousness, is that God cannot instantaneously create a righteous human being, and a human being cannot instantaneously have faith in God. This is because we are limited, not being all powerful knowing beings as God is. Therefore God is limited in His instruction of our Free Will minds, which means time, experience and knowledge is a necessity that God must give mankind in a very strategic manner, in order to establish faith and make us righteous.
But Jodi, how can this be? When even our faith is a gift from God.Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 23 2007,15:25) Hi WJ, Quote Your opinion. I could also say that if you deny that Jesus came in the flesh then you are of the spirit of antichrist.
I have never denied that Jesus came in the flesh. He was born, wasn't he?Quote But jesus conception is not a “natural conception” is it?
I believe that it is.
not3You say…
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I have never denied that Jesus came in the flesh. He was born, wasn't he?Coming in the flesh as the scriptures say is a useless term if it dosnt mean what it says.
You cant come “In” something namely the flesh unless you existed before th flesh! You have Unitarian glasses on!
You say…
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I believe that it is.Really a virgin is with child by the Holy Spirit and you believe this is natural?
Jodi,
Thanks for your responses. I'm afraid we will not come to an agreement after all. I believe your explainations to my questions are a bit of a stretch. As I am sure you believe other things about my theories, ah well. We are still family and I have really appreciated your willingness to give me your thoughts.
Quote That is a good and legitimate question and I believe the bible provides the answer. If Jesus was the biological son of Joseph he would receive the curse from being a descendant of Coniah/Jeconiah (Matthew 1 shows Joseph’s biological connection to Coniah). Jeremiah 22:27 But they shall not return to the land to which they long to return. 28 Is this man Coniah a despised broken pot, a vessel no one wants? Why are he and his offspring hurled out and cast away in a land that they do not know? 29 O land, land, land, hear the word of the Lord! 30 Thus says the Lord: Record this man as childless, a man who shall not succeed in his days; for none of his offspring shall succeed in sitting on the throne of David, and ruling again in Judah.
I must have missed this or forgotten your response before, sorry. I do think it is a bit of a stretch and this is why, there is no greater curse than being born under the Law (which is the curse of death), which Jesus was. Further, it is said that even when Jesus' days were cut short that God would see his offspring (which is you and me). If God was able to un-do such curses and restrictions, certainly a throw-back curse from Coniah would be no biggie for God. Prophesies were changed all the time in the OT. Most Christians believe that when God said something, it was a done deal – not so. There are plenty of examples where God said something would be thus and so, and because of the persons choices or behavior, it was changed (King David is an excellent example of this).Quote What made Jesus special was God's Spirit working in him. The virgin birth was a matter of getting around a curse, so the Jews would have an excepting legal heir to the throne.
God's spirit worked through Moses in a mighty way, wouldn't you agree? And yet Moses was a servant over God's house while Jesus was a Son over God's house. The virgin birth is so much more than “getting around something” – I don't believe God would have sent a host of angels to sing in the air over his Son's birth if it was simply a scapegoat arrangement.Quote And to answer your second question-
Jesus never became a child of wrath, through remaining sinless, he remained a child of God. The rest of us are sinners and are lost children.
You said earlier that what made Jesus special was that God worked through him (as opposed to him being special by birth), do you think it was God that worked through him to keep him sinless? If so, how come we cannot remain sinless – God works through us?Quote Our adoption has nothing to do with biology and everything to do with sin. If Adam had not sinned he would not need to be adopted through Christ.
As I shared with Ken, this idea of Adam never sinning and therefore not needing Christ is an interesting subject. But I don't believe it applies when we are talking about reality. Adam did sin. If there wasn't a problem with the first covenant, God would have never sought to establish a new one based on better promises. Adam was promised a rose garden…..we are promised intimate family ties and full rights as sons and daughter's. Obviously Adam did not have these promises.Quote We are adopted-accepted as sons and daughters by God because Jesus washed away our sins, no longer making us children of wrath.
We are sons and daughter's awaiting our adoption because Jesus was given, because he was who he was. Because of who he is, we will follow him. If he was just a mere man who obeyed – what would there be to follow? Obedience? Divine nature? We can partake of the divine nature NOW. So what is our hope in following Jesus in his death and resurrection? Our hope is being accepted as full sons and daughter's. We can only have this hope because Jesus was/is a full, legitimate Son of God and we will follow him.Paul tells us that if we have what we hope for – it is no hope at all. So even though we obey, even though we have faith, even though God works through us, even though Jesus has already died for us and secured our redemption…..we still do not have what we hope for. Not yet, anyway.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 23 2007,15:35) Oops, I wasn't done posting to you WJ……. Quote I am glad you believe that “ALL THINGS” are possible with God, including taking on the likeness of sinfull flesh.
Of course I believe all things are possible (God could make children out of stone if he wanted to), but tell me why it would be more beneficial for God to come himself in a body that ordinarily would belong to a new individual? Why confuse matters? And what is the benefit versus Jesus being the true SON of God.Quote How can you possibly compare the two.
I didn't, Gabriel did.Quote You say…Quote God provided what was needed (sperm). This is what a “source” does (they provided what is needed).
So you say and believe. Scipture please?
I'm not sure what you want scripture for? That God is the source of Jesus, his Son? Are not all Father's the source of their children?Quote Sorry not3, your belief leaves a lot of unanswered questions!
What are your questions, specifically, and I'll see if I can answer them? And you'll have to forgive me a little because I am looking at this from a non-trinitarian perspective. Those questions have already been answered for me and I have moved on.
Not3You say…
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Of course I believe all things are possible (God could make children out of stone if he wanted to)Well look around, he made man out of dirt didnt he? Why would the body of the second adam be made any different?
He is the creator isnt he? We know Jesus is the second Adam who is a quickening Spirit, the first Adam was a living soul.
But the body is the same except Jesus body was without sin.
You say…
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but tell me why it would be more beneficial for God to come himself in a body that ordinarily would belong to a new individual?Because another man like Adam could not save us. Besides you are implying that the man is “Flesh”. Have you seen a dead body? Is that the man. No it was the tent that the man lived in. The body without the Spirit is dead being alone.
You say…
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Why confuse matters? And what is the benefit versus Jesus being the true SON of God.To me your idea is confusing and is not scriptural. Besides your version of Jesus being the son of God, part man and part God, divine man, is confusing, more so than the Trinitarian view which says he is God in the flesh.
Jesus is a “Hybrid”?
You say…
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I didn't, Gabriel did.There is no comparison to a virgin being found with child of the Holy Spirit and Eiizabeths birth.
Did the Angel say to Elizabeth “his name shall be called Immanuel, which is being interpreted God with us?
You say…
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I'm not sure what you want scripture for? That God is the source of Jesus, his Son? Are not all Father's the source of their children?I want a scripture showing your claim that God took sperm and implanted it into Marys womb like a test tube baby.
And you didnt explain how can it be natural sperm, and if it was then he is like us in every way and so why the virgin.
Does God have “Spiritual Sperm”?
You say…
Quote
What are your questions, specifically, and I'll see if I can answer them? And you'll have to forgive me a little because I am looking at this from a non-trinitarian perspective. Those questions have already been answered for me and I have moved on.Yes I realize you are looking at it through Unitarian glasses.
Question..
Was the sperm that God provided Mary natural or spiritual?
Was Jesus also a Spirit being?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 23 2007,15:50) You have Unitarian glasses on!
You are right, brother, I do. I'm not sure what all the Unitarians believe, but I know what the Lord has revealed to me about his Father. And as much as I want to please you, because you have my respect, I am sorry to say that I cannot believe in the Jesus that you do. I know that you cannot believe in the Jesus that I do. And so we must pray for one another that God's holy spirit will guide us both.Jesus was conceived naturally. Meaning, as the Father of Jesus, God provided what was needed. Children are conceived naturally every day with the help of sperm donor's.
WJ,
It looks like you are answering your own questions.
Quote Why would the body of the second adam be made any different? See your answer below….
Quote Because another man like Adam could not save us.
To this I say, Amen!Quote Jesus is a “Hybrid”?
If that is what you choose to call the Son of God and the Son of Man – then yes!Quote There is no comparison to a virgin being found with child of the Holy Spirit and Eiizabeths birth.
I'm sorry I wasn't very clear. My point was that their pregnancies were compared in that they were both with child. A child. Not an incarnation. Unless, of course you believe that JTB was some sort of incarnation?Quote I want a scripture showing your claim that God took sperm and implanted it into Marys womb like a test tube baby.
Test tube babies are really no different from regular conceived babies. The sperm and the egg are united in a dish and then inserted into the womb. So this doesn't really apply, but I understand your frustration in seeing that God can simply provide what is needed. It's a pretty basic concept.Quote And you didnt explain how can it be natural sperm, and if it was then he is like us in every way and so why the virgin. Does God have “Spiritual Sperm”?
Human men have – human sperm. God is spirit – I would imagine that he provided a sperm that included his appropriate properties (or DNA). After all, Jesus was born with two legs, two eyes, and so on. He was also born sinless, with a star that shone bright the night he was delievered. Accompanied by a host of angels annoucing his birth.Quote Was Jesus also a Spirit being?
Jesus was/is a combination of his parents.Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 23 2007,16:30) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 23 2007,15:50) You have Unitarian glasses on!
You are right, brother, I do. I'm not sure what all the Unitarians believe, but I know what the Lord has revealed to me about his Father. And as much as I want to please you, because you have my respect, I am sorry to say that I cannot believe in the Jesus that you do. I know that you cannot believe in the Jesus that I do. And so we must pray for one another that God's holy spirit will guide us both.Jesus was conceived naturally. Meaning, as the Father of Jesus, God provided what was needed. Children are conceived naturally every day with the help of sperm donor's.
not3But you didnt answere the questions!
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