Conception

[Not3in1]

Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 17 2007,11:20)

But the scripture says BOTH were men. Not hybrids just men.

Of course, both are men. However, the scriptures tell us there are differences between the two men. Big differences.

[Not3in1]

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 17 2007,12:47)

This leads to another question: his body was from Mary, what of his spirit and soul?

Nick and I gave this topic a pretty good ride once.  I believe it's towards the beginning of this thread.

My belief is that when we are conceived, we are conceived mind, body and spirit together.  In other words, there are no indications either in science or in scripture that points to one parent being responsible for one part and so on.  It is a process of being FUSED that creates this total person.  This is what happened to Jesus.

[Stu]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2007,15:19)

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 17 2007,12:47) This leads to another question: his body was from Mary, what of his spirit and soul? Nick and I gave this topic a pretty good ride once.  I believe it's towards the beginning of this thread. My belief is that when we are conceived, we are conceived mind, body and spirit together.  In other words, there are no indications either in science or in scripture that points to one parent being responsible for one part and so on.  It is a process of being FUSED that creates this total person.  This is what happened to Jesus.

The only indication science will give is that your body (and mind as a part of it) is produced from a recipe that is a pick and mix of parents' DNA. Apart from some genes on the X and Y chromosomes you have two copies of all genes. In cases where only one of the two gene versions (alleles) can be expressed you will get just the “dominant” one. So, for example if you have a copy of the gene that enables you to roll your tongue, then you will be able to do so because that allele is the dominant one.

So it is true that you could have characteristics that are each specific to one parent only. It is also true that you must have two copies of all genes, one from a father and one from a mother, and a sex chromosome from each parent, X from mother and X or Y from father. There is no explanation for where Jesus's Y chromosome came from on this thread, which is why it is unwise to invoke scientific arguments in this context – reproduction by two human parents is the only way to get human beings. Anything else is magic and therefore outside science (and in my opinion fantasy).

Science says nothing about the “spirit”, as there is no definition of what this is.

Stuart

[kenrch]

Quote

Actually if you read the full context in Hebrews you may notice that the passage says that the children had flesh and blood and so the Son *shared* in their humanity, and he was made exactly like them……..meaning in his body. Yes, Jesus was a man. He ate, slept, had friends, worked a profession, lived and died. But he was not only the Son of Man, he was also the Son of God. We are merely the sons and daughter's of man. Big difference there for those who will accept it.

I am not only the son of man but also a son of God being born again. It just so happens that the son of man part is dead because of sin.
When we get our immortal body then we will be as Jesus is Now. A complete child of God.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Quote

Of course, both are men. However, the scriptures tell us there are differences between the two men. Big differences.

Quote

My belief is that when we are conceived, we are conceived mind, body and spirit together. In other words, there are no indications either in science or in scripture that points to one parent being responsible for one part and so on. It is a process of being FUSED that creates this total person. This is what happened to Jesus.

What differences?
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Adam was a son of God created with no sin. Could we say Adam was God and flesh as you are saying about Jesus.

Mary, you and I are dust made flesh. So Jesus was made from dust on Mary's side of the family If Jesus flesh was part God and Adam's flesh was not then Jesus had an advantage over Adam.

Satan tempted the almighty? And not a mere human like Adam.

One man came from dust made flesh. The other man came from flesh that was dust. Both came from dust. We are Dust.

If Jesus was part God then He was a SUPERHUMAN and God.

I believe the game is who will MAN serve. Not who will a hybrid part God serve. Certianly if what you say is true God in Jesus' flesh then the God part of Him had to have influenced Him. While Adam had NO such advantage?

Unless if Adam had God MIXED in him also.

What makes you think that God as He did with Adam just blow life into Mary's womb. Isn't God capable of doing such a thing. If God can turn dust to flesh couldn't He turn flesh to flesh through Mary.
After all He made Eve from a man. Do you suppose that Eve was a HYBRID too. Eve was called woman because she was taken from man. You mention science, God has no rules for Him all things are possible.

Sure Jesus said He was the Son of God just as you and I are sons/daughters of God. The son of man was the only “human” walking the earth with the Holy Spirit so yes He was the Son of God Spiritually.

Adam was the son of God spiritually untill sin was found in him.

Both were MEN.

It's like God said ok man failed so I will send myself down there through flesh to be tempted. Lets see if I will follow Satan. Satan would be screaming. You and I would be screaming foul if something like that happened to us.

But there is no record of Satan being upset because Jesus was HUMAN with no sin just as Adam was. He had no right to cry foul AS he did with Job. And notice God then gave Satan permission to do what he will but take Job's life.

Ok lets race I have a Shelby Mustang with 500 horse power engine and you have a Mustang with a 300 horse power engine who will win?

Heb 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, . so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted

Did the part of Jesus that was God die on the cross?

[Not3in1]

Quote (Stu @ Oct. 17 2007,17:55)

There is no explanation for where Jesus's Y chromosome came from on this thread, which is why it is unwise to invoke scientific arguments in this context – reproduction by two human parents is the only way to get human beings. Anything else is magic and therefore outside science (and in my opinion fantasy).

There is an explaination – God is the Father of Jesus, and he provided what was needed.

Indeed you are correct that two human parents will produce a human offspring. Say, Stu, what do you think you would get if you crossed God with a female? Would the offspring be:

A. God
B. A preexistent Angel
C. A preexistent spirit son
D. 100% Human
E. Divine Man

As always, I'm curious about your response.

[Not3in1]

Brother Ken,

I can see from your posts that you are working this out in your own mind, and this is a good thing. Keep asking these questions and see what answers you come up with. Pray and take some time to study this out, I believe you will be blessed for doing so.

Jesus is a mix of God and Mary. He is a true son of the Almighty God.

You have sons, right Ken? I believe I read that somewhere. Think about your boys and how they are yours. Now think of Jesus being God's boy……

[kenrch]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2007,19:20)

Brother Ken, I can see from your posts that you are working this out in your own mind, and this is a good thing.  Keep asking these questions and see what answers you come up with.  Pray and take some time to study this out, I believe you will be blessed for doing so. Jesus is a mix of God and Mary.  He is a true son of the Almighty God. You have sons, right Ken?  I believe I read that somewhere.  Think about your boys and how they are yours.  Now think of Jesus being God's boy……

Then it would seem that God “lost”. He changed the rules. First their was Adam who Satan defeated so God made a different being? A mixed breed, a Hybrid half of Himself and half Adam?

Answer this question if you don't mind.

Did the half that was God die on the cross?

You say Jesus' flesh was half God. So then the half of Jesus' flesh ~that was God~must have died with the half that was human.

Either that or Jesus gave half of Himself.

[Stu]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2007,19:12)

Quote (Stu @ Oct. 17 2007,17:55) There is no explanation for where Jesus's Y chromosome came from on this thread, which is why it is unwise to invoke scientific arguments in this context – reproduction by two human parents is the only way to get human beings. Anything else is magic and therefore outside science (and in my opinion fantasy). There is an explaination – God is the Father of Jesus, and he provided what was needed. Indeed you are correct that two human parents will produce a human offspring.  Say, Stu, what do you think you would get if you crossed God with a female?  Would the offspring be: A.  God B.  A preexistent Angel C.  A preexistent spirit son D.  100% Human E.  Divine Man As always, I'm curious about your response.

It's very kind of you to ask, but I think my response is not relevant to the kind of fantasy answers that people contributing to this thread want. The discussion is far from actual reality in my opinion. Although there are no actual eyewitness accounts of any aspect of the life of Jesus at all, I think you would have been hard pressed to find anyone at the time who would have attested to, or even believed in any kind of human-deity collaboration in the birth of Jesus.

It has been demonstrated time and again across different religions that myths like virgin birth and resurrection are generally invented many years after the supposed events by devout writers. The Judeo-Christian version follows this pattern, including altering the writings of Josephus to suit the cause.

So, if you want reality, accept that Jesus, if he existed at all, was the son of Mary and probably Joseph.

Stuart

[Not3in1]

Hi Ken,

I started posting and then the Electrician came this morning, sorry.

Quote

He changed the rules. First their was Adam who Satan defeated so God made a different being? A mixed breed, a Hybrid half of Himself and half Adam?

This is a good way of putting it. Yes, “God made a different being” so to speak. Do you remember the parable of the Tenants? Remember how the owner kept sending servants to collect the rent and they kept getting killed by the renter's? Finally the owner sent his son because he knew they would respect him……and they killed him too! It's sort of like this in that Adam, Moses are servants over God's house, but Jesus is the Son over his house. It was Jesus that he sent to collect the debt, only this time Jesus paid the debt.

Adam is a servant, albeit son of God (even angels are referred to as “sons” of God), but Jesus is THE SON of God. A definite difference is drawn.

Quote

Answer this question if you don't mind. Did the half that was God die on the cross? You say Jesus' flesh was half God. So then the half of Jesus' flesh ~that was God~must have died with the half that was human. Either that or Jesus gave half of Himself

If you will indulge me for a second, I'm going to answer your question by posing a question.

If your son was sacrificed on the cross, tell me which part of him would die? The part that is you, or the part that is your wife?

[Not3in1]

Quote (Stu @ Oct. 18 2007,06:25)

So, if you want reality, accept that Jesus, if he existed at all, was the son of Mary and probably Joseph.

You don't know how to play this game, do you Stu? I'm kidding ya!

OK, see your choice was not any option that was listed. You have to pick one of the options listed or I'm taking my ball and going home! heehee

[kenrch]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 18 2007,06:27)

Hi Ken, I started posting and then the Electrician came this morning, sorry. Quote He changed the rules.  First their was Adam who Satan defeated so God made a different being?  A mixed breed, a Hybrid half of Himself and half Adam? This is a good way of putting it.  Yes, “God made a different being” so to speak.  Do you remember the parable of the Tenants?  Remember how the owner kept sending servants to collect the rent and they kept getting killed by the renter's?  Finally the owner sent his son because he knew they would respect him……and they killed him too!  It's sort of like this in that Adam, Moses are servants over God's house, but Jesus is the Son over his house.  It was Jesus that he sent to collect the debt, only this time Jesus paid the debt. Adam is a servant, albeit son of God (even angels are referred to as “sons” of God), but Jesus is THE SON of God.  A definite difference is drawn. Quote Answer this question if you don't mind. Did the half that was God die on the cross?   You say Jesus' flesh was half God.  So then the half of Jesus' flesh ~that was God~must have died with the half that was human. Either that or Jesus gave half of Himself If you will indulge me for a second, I'm going to answer your question by posing a question.   If your son was sacrificed on the cross, tell me which part of him would die?  The part that is you, or the part that is your wife?

Quote

If you will indulge me for a second, I'm going to answer your question by posing a question. If your son was sacrificed on the cross, tell me which part of him would die? The part that is you, or the part that is your wife?

Sadly my son has NO God at all. Even if he did it would only be spiritually as neither myself nor my wife are gods

I think you are comparing apples to oranges, don't you?

First of all you are saying tha Part of Jesus was God! Does God die? Or did the son of man only offer half of Himself?

[Not3in1]

Again, what part of your son is you? What part is your wife? My point is that you cannot separate the two! Your son is a mix of both of you. So it is with Jesus. You asked, “What part of Jesus died on the cross?” Meaning, did the “God part” die, or the “Mary part” die? My answer is that just as you cannot separate your son into the part that is you, and the part that is your wife……you cannot do this with Jesus either.

Quote

Sadly my son has NO God at all. Even if he did it would only be spiritually as neither myself nor my wife are gods

Exactly! Because you both are human, you produced a human son.

However, in the case of our Lord, he only had a human for a mother – his Daddy was/is Almighty God.

In this union of God and women, do you think the child would be 100% human? You produced a human. What would God produce?

[kenrch]

Again, what part of your son is you? What part is your wife? My point is that you cannot separate the two! /QUOTE]

So when Christ died DID HIS GOD PART DIE ALSO?

If Jesus' flesh was part God then when Christ died did God die with that flesh?

Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

We have the same SPIRIT as Christ. Does this SPIRIT die when we do? Is that SPIRIT in our flesh?

Please answer this question Mandy.

Because you say Jesus was God in flesh also; When Jesus died did that God part in Jesus' flesh die?

Given what you are saying I believe it is a fair question.

[Jodi]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2007,04:11)

Ken, thanks for your thoughts on this. We know that Adam was made from mud. We know that Jesus was “made from” God's holy spirit and Mary. I would imagine there might be a bit of difference between the two Adam's. The comparision is drawn because they are both of the human race (men). However, we are told that the first man came from the earth, and the second from above. Some do not want to see the difference because to them, it prevents them from being just like their brother. It actually discourages them from attempting to be like Christ, and this is sad, but I certainly understand where they are coming from. Of course, I am speaking specifically about our brother, Gene. There is a difference between Adam and Jesus. That difference is that one is God's *only* Son who was born to him, the other son was created. One bares a resemblence and inherited attributes as sons do, while the other was a “pattern” that was made for the one to come. This is what scripture teaches us. Jesus was born. Adam was created.

Hi Sister,

Yes Adam was Created a Human being, and done so, I might add, by the Power of God's Holy Spirit.

And Yes, Jesus was Born a Human being, also done so by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

I believe it can be argued that both Adam and Jesus came from above. We can say that they both became living beings by the power of God, which comes from above. The difference however is that Adam's mindset was of this world, it was earthly, while Jesus' mindset was from above, was heavenly. God foreknew that His son Adam would bring sin and that His son Jesus would bring righteousness, thus the first Adam was of the earth and the second was heavenly.

Adam was created in the image of God and he became like God by knowing good and evil upon his sinful actions. Jesus was the express image of God because while also knowing good and evil, he only took of the good and he refused the evil.

The notable difference between Adam and Jesus was that Adam sinned and Jesus did not.

“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind,” Albert Einstein.

Yes, how the Holy Spirit made Mary pregnant, is unknown by science (Latin “scientia,” meaning knowledge), for God has not given us that intelligence yet. All the material needed to make a sperm does exist within the body of Mary, it is a matter of configuration of certain elements. How the Spirit goes about putting it all together within Mary is scientifically unknown to us at this time. God reveals knowledge (science) at His will and under His plan. God HAS revealed to us that Jesus is a human being who was birthed by a female. God HAS revealed to mankind how humans are made. I don’t think it takes on my behalf some leap of faith to conclude that the Holy Spirit provided Mary with a Human Sperm. The Holy Spirit we know has helped a few women get pregnant in the past, of course the circumstances were different, but none of the less, they became pregnant by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:31 You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,

In the NT when Jesus was being declared God’s Son, was this so the people would know that he was part biologically God, or was it so that the people would know he was the promised Messiah, the son of David? Let’s not forget that 2 Samuel 7:12-14 tells us, “When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come forth from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me.”

This does not sound to me like Father/Son relationship is a matter of biology!

Mandy, I don’t see anywhere in scripture that says Jesus is part biologically God. Scripture actually PROVES otherwise-
1Co 15:21 -For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being;

God Almighty is a ONE of a KIND Being

Mary was a human being and Jesus is a human being, therefore Jesus is Not in anyway physically or biologically part God. Jesus is FULLY human!

If Jesus were part God and part Mary he too would be a One of a Kind being, we are told however that Jesus is a human being.

Yes Jesus is called a new man, why, because he was perfected. We too will be made perfect, and upon our resurrection we will be just like Jesus, however of course Jesus will be the only one who is King!

My understanding is that Jesus is God’s Only begotten Son because God, through His intelligent planning, knew ahead of time that Jesus would never become a child of wrath. All sinners are children of wrath and therefore are children of death and cannot be seen as children of God because they do not have God’s life in them. Jesus is God’s Only Son because his righteousness kept him from seeing corruption. All other human beings are incapable of leading a sinless life, and therefore cannot earn themselves immortality. Through Jesus we receive immortality, and this is why in Ephesians we are referred to as adopted children of God.

Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will– 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace

Scripture never indicates that Jesus is anything other then fully human, neither does it ever indicate that we are not children of God because we are not part biologically God. We are seen as adopted because it was by our doing that we became lost children of God, and by Jesus we once again can be found. If there were another person out there that remained sinless, then Jesus would not be considered God’s only son. Sonship is a matter of righteousness, it is a matter of Mind Set, where a person exemplifies God by reflecting God’s character with their own character perfectly. God gives His Spirit, which is a matter of information planted in our brain. The final step to perfection is when our biological code is programmed not to degenerate. Jesus did not have advantage in his flesh, he experienced all the corruption Adam brought into the world. He did however have the advantage of having the fullness of God’s Spirit. Thus proving to the world that God, not laws perfect the man. Through the First Adam and the Second Adam God shows the world that we need Him, that we need His will and not our own.

Mankind needed to learn that we (flesh and blood) are inferior to God. The lesson in the garden was that mankind cannot find knowledge on his own. Through the punishment of death, God showed just how weak and powerless we are. Through God's life in Jesus however, God showed that all we could ever want and need comes from God, not from a piece of fruit!

Jesus is a product of God's work in a HUMAN BEING, and NOT a product of God's biological make
up.

Mandy, if you deny that Jesus is fully human, then I believe you are denying the flesh that bought you, because if Jesus was not fully human, then he could not have paid for your sins.

Once again-1Co 15:21 -For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being;

Jesus –Only begotten Son because he remained sinless
Mankind- Adopted children because are sins are washed away only by Christ’s blood

Because of our sins we are dead children of God, but because Jesus can wash away those sins when we ask for forgiveness, we become once again children of God.

This seems clear enough to me —–Jesus was foreplanned to lead a perfect life and therefore is seen rightfully as God’s Only Son. Until we are resurrected and are made incorruptible, Jesus will remain technically God’s Only Human Son.

[Stu]

Hi Jodi

You say “Yes, how the Holy Spirit made Mary pregnant, is unknown by science (Latin “scientia,” meaning knowledge), for God has not given us that intelligence yet. All the material needed to make a sperm does exist within the body of Mary”

Isn't this a bit confused, to say the least? You are quite happy that the Imaginary One can make people out of dirt, then you are trying to describe a plausible way that a god could use the contents of Mary's body to make a sperm cell? This is fantasyland stuff. At the very least it is a celebration of ignorance.

Tell me if Adam had nipples. Did he have a navel? Can you tell me where Jesus’s Y chromosome came from?

You quote Albert Einstein “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind,”. I have posted elsewhere the background to this oft-misused quote. If you knew the meaning of the word “religion” in the way Einstein used it you would not bother with it – Einstein didn’t believe in gods, he thought of religion as the sense of awe and excitement that can be gained from studying the universe.

I think in this case of your post, and of most of this thread, science has completely turned to face the other way while people abuse it without a care.

Stuart

[kenrch]

Quote (Jodi @ Oct. 20 2007,05:29)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2007,04:11) Ken, thanks for your thoughts on this. We know that Adam was made from mud.  We know that Jesus was “made from” God's holy spirit and Mary.  I would imagine there might be a bit of difference between the two Adam's.  The comparision is drawn because they are both of the human race (men).  However, we are told that the first man came from the earth, and the second from above.  Some do not want to see the difference because to them, it prevents them from being just like their brother.  It actually discourages them from attempting to be like Christ, and this is sad, but I certainly understand where they are coming from.  Of course, I am speaking specifically about our brother, Gene. There is a difference between Adam and Jesus.  That difference is that one is God's *only* Son who was born to him, the other son was created.  One bares a resemblence and inherited attributes as sons do, while the other was a “pattern” that was made for the one to come.  This is what scripture teaches us.  Jesus was born.  Adam was created. Hi Sister, Yes Adam was Created a Human being, and done so, I might add, by the Power of God's Holy Spirit. And Yes, Jesus was Born a Human being, also done so by the Power of the Holy Spirit. I believe it can be argued that both Adam and Jesus came from above. We can say that they both became living beings by the power of God, which comes from above. The difference however is that Adam's mindset was of this world, it was earthly, while Jesus' mindset was from above, was heavenly. God foreknew that His son Adam would bring sin and that His son Jesus would bring righteousness, thus the first Adam was of the earth and the second was heavenly. Adam was created in the image of God and he became like God by knowing good and evil upon his sinful actions. Jesus was the express image of God because while also knowing good and evil, he only took of the good and he refused the evil. The notable difference between Adam and Jesus was that Adam sinned and Jesus did not. “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind,” Albert Einstein. Yes, how the Holy Spirit made Mary pregnant, is unknown by science (Latin “scientia,” meaning knowledge), for God has not given us that intelligence yet. All the material needed to make a sperm does exist within the body of Mary, it is a matter of configuration of certain elements. How the Spirit goes about putting it all together within Mary is scientifically unknown to us at this time. God reveals knowledge (science) at His will and under His plan.  God HAS revealed to us that Jesus is a human being who was birthed by a female. God HAS revealed to mankind how humans are made. I don’t think it takes on my behalf some leap of faith to conclude that the Holy Spirit provided Mary with a Human Sperm. The Holy Spirit we know has helped a few women get pregnant in the past, of course the circumstances were different, but none of the less, they became pregnant by the power of the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:31 You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, In the NT when Jesus was being declared God’s Son, was this so the people would know that he was part biologically God, or was it so that the people would know he was the promised Messiah, the son of David? Let’s not forget that 2 Samuel 7:12-14 tells us, “When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come forth from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me.” This does not sound to me like Father/Son relationship is a matter of biology! Mandy, I don’t see anywhere in scripture that says Jesus is part biologically God. Scripture actually PROVES otherwise- 1Co 15:21 -For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; God Almighty is a ONE of a KIND Being Mary was a human being and Jesus is a human being, therefore Jesus is Not in anyway physically or biologically part God. Jesus is FULLY human! If Jesus were part God and part Mary he too would be a One of a Kind being, we are told however that Jesus is a human being. Yes Jesus is called a new man, why, because he was perfected. We too will be made perfect, and upon our resurrection we will be just like Jesus, however of course Jesus will be the only one who is King! My understanding is that Jesus is God’s Only begotten Son because God, through His intelligent planning, knew ahead of time that Jesus would never become a child of wrath. All sinners are children of wrath and therefore are children of death and cannot be seen as children of God because they do not have God’s life in them. Jesus is God’s Only Son because his righteousness kept him from seeing corruption. All other human beings are incapable of leading a sinless life, and therefore cannot earn themselves immortality. Through Jesus we receive immortality, and this is why in Ephesians we are referred to as adopted children of God. Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will– 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace Scripture never indicates that Jesus is anything other then fully human, neither does it ever indicate that we are not children of God because we are not part biologically God. We are seen as adopted because it was by our doing that we became lost children of God, and by Jesus we once again can be found. If there were another person out there that remained sinless, then Jesus would not be considered God’s only son. Sonship is a matter of righteousness, it is a matter of Mind Set, where a person exemplifies God by reflecting God’s character with their own character perfectly. God gives His Spirit, which is a matter of information planted in our brain. The final step to perfection is when our biological code is programmed not to degenerate. Jesus did not have advantage in his flesh, he experienced all the corruption Adam brought into the world. He did however have the advantage of having the fullness of God’s Spirit. Thus proving to the world that God, not laws perfect the man.  Through the First  Adam and the Second Adam God shows the world that we need Him, that we need His will and not our own. Mankind needed to learn that we (flesh and blood) are inferior to God. The lesson in the garden was that mankind cannot find knowledge on his own. Through the punishment of death, God showed just how weak and powerless we are. Through God's life in Jesus however, God showed that all we could ever want and need comes from God, not from a piece of fruit! Jesus is a product of God's work in a HUMAN BEING, and NOT a product of God's biological makeup. Mandy, if you deny that Jesus is fully human, then I believe you are denying the flesh that bought you, because if Jesus was not fully human, then he could not have paid for your sins. Once again-1Co 15:21 -For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; Jesus –Only begotten Son because he remained sinless Mankind- Adopted children because are sins are washed away only by Christ’s blood Because of our sins we are dead children of God, but because Jesus can wash away those sins when we ask for forgiveness, we become once again children of God. This seems clear enough to me —–Jesus was foreplanned to lead a perfect life and therefore is seen rightfully as God’s Only Son. Until we are resurrected and are made incorruptible, Jesus will remain technically God’s Only Human Son.

Well stated Jodi!

How's Molly Sue?

[IM4Truth]

Jodi How is that bundle of Joy doing. Love to hear from you about Molly Sue.
As far as Jesus is concerned I wish you would read some of t8 post on the preexisting tread. It is very good and I believe like He does.
I can give you some scriptures to study, but I have no energy to write them all out for you, tho. So here they are.
John 1:1, 1:3, 1:14-15, 6:38-40, 3:17
Jude 1:25
Col. 1:15-18
Luke 10:18
In your James Moffatt translation of the Bible these scriptures explains it the best.
Prov. 8:22-30

Peace and Love Mrs.

[Jodi]

Quote (Stu @ Oct. 20 2007,09:25)

Hi Jodi You say “Yes, how the Holy Spirit made Mary pregnant, is unknown by science (Latin “scientia,” meaning knowledge), for God has not given us that intelligence yet. All the material needed to make a sperm does exist within the body of Mary” Isn't this a bit confused, to say the least? You are quite happy that the Imaginary One can make people out of dirt, then you are trying to describe a plausible way that a god could use the contents of Mary's body to make a sperm cell? This is fantasyland stuff. At the very least it is a celebration of ignorance. Tell me if Adam had nipples. Did he have a navel? Can you tell me where Jesus’s Y chromosome came from? You quote Albert Einstein “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind,”. I have posted elsewhere the background to this oft-misused quote. If you knew the meaning of the word “religion” in the way Einstein used it you would not bother with it – Einstein didn’t believe in gods, he thought of religion as the sense of awe and excitement that can be gained from studying the universe. I think in this case of your post, and of most of this thread, science has completely turned to face the other way while people abuse it without a care. Stuart

People who believe in the God of the bible, which every Christian has their own unique view or understanding of who He is, are obvious believers in ID.

Personally, in my opinion people who think such complex systems such as DNA can just poof into existence by accident ARE the TRUE believers of FANTASY and MAGIC.

What part of my statement was confusing Stuart? We are made up of the same chemical elements found in dirt. If an Intelligent Designer can take the elements found in dirt and reconfigure them to make a human, then He can certainly reconfigerate elements in Mary to make a sperm.

You said I should not have bothered with the quote of Einstein because I don’t properly understand his use of the word religion. I’m curious Stu have you ever read this quote by Einstein?

“My religion consists of a humble admiration of the unlimitable superior who reveals Himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God.”

In my opinion Stuart, macroevolutionists are the biggest abusers of science. This thread is not about evolution verses creation however, it’s about Creationists who are intrigued with the miracle birth of Jesus, so your comments are nil and void!

[Jodi]

Molly Sue is doing great. At her two week check up she had already gained a pound! She is starting to eat more less often, which means more sleep for me at night! We have been calling her our Molly Tamale, and when she gets mad, we of course call her our Hot Tamale!

[IM4Truth]

That is so adorable, thank you for sharing this Picture with us Jodi! You must be a proud Mother She is beautiful. I am so happy for you that you get more sleep, now.

Peace and Love Mrs.  

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