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Hi,
What is meant by equal in 'co-equal?' I would say that the Father and the Son are equal in nature like all true fathers and sons. Are they equal in what they own? Everything the Father has, He has given the Son, and all that the Son has belongs to the Father also, so they are equal in whatever things is in the 'everything.'Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 05 2006,15:38) Quote (Sammo @ May 05 2006,05:31) What I meant was, that even if Joseph and Pharaoh were 'co-equal' in the sense that they were both men (as Jesus might be co-equal to God in the sense that they were of the same 'kind'), they certainly weren't 100% the same being (as Jesus and the Father are said to both be 100% God). So the relationship between Joseph and Pharaoh can't be seen to represent a trinitarian relationship between Jesus and the Father – but it can be seen to represent a non-trinitarian relationship between Jesus and God.
Take care
Quote Hey Isa 1:18 Would you believe it, I was actually in your neck of the woods last week, and tried giving you a call, but the phone was engaged! The way things go, I guess
Too bad! Actually we've moved and our ph# has changed, i'll PM you the new one in case you are in the area again any time soon. Would love to catch up!Quote What I meant was, that even if Joseph and Pharaoh were 'co-equal' in the sense that they were both men (as Jesus might be co-equal to God in the sense that they were of the same 'kind'), they certainly weren't 100% the same being (as Jesus and the Father are said to both be 100% God). So the relationship between Joseph and Pharaoh can't be seen to represent a trinitarian relationship between Jesus and the Father – but it can be seen to represent a non-trinitarian relationship between Jesus and God.
Trinitarian or non-trinitarian wise, I don't think it's ever appropriate or legitimate to use human analogies to convey a truth about God's nature or identity. You're dealing with the infinite.
The scriptures compare God, who is spirit, to man in many ways. The Lord bare his arm. The eyes of the Lord. Heaven is God's throne, the earth His footstool.As a matter of fact, God compares himself to inanimate objects. Ie, rock, fortress, shield, buckler, words, etc. Psalm 18:1-3, and lots of other places.
God uses human words and concepts to communicate His nature and motives all the time. The entire scripture does just that.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 06 2006,05:45) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 05 2006,11:47) Hi Is 1.18,
Is God greater than you in any and all senses?
Is God greater than the Son of God Jesus Christ.
Jesus said he was.
That excludes them sharing the same being, God as surely God could not have unequal parts?So where is the equality?
Is your father greater than you in senses?Does he have a superior nature to you?
Is he of a higher ontological class?
By your own admission “”Greater” is not an theological or ontological word.” (pg 3), so why are you now now argueing that Yahshua's father is greater than him “in all senses”?
The heavenly Father, God, is superior to Jesus Christ. God does not have a human mother. Jesus Christ has a human mother. Since, God is superior to humans, and humans lesser than God. God is superior to JC. In all ways.Barley,
“You said that God is superior to JC in all ways.” Is God a superior man to Jesus? It appears by your above post that you do not know the Son that created the world, you only know Him after He lowered Himself to become a man. Is that right?Lightenup…………..Barely is right is what he has said sis. Jesus is now and always will be (SUBJECT) to the Fathers Will. If he were not then he would not need God's Seven Spirits to be IN Him giving him the understandings need to reign. He is sited at the right hand of GOD not as GOD HIMSELF. WE are told to honor Jesus to the Glory of the Father. Jesus went to (HIS) GOD and our GOD (HIS) Father and OUR Father. So according to your reasonings we to are GOD”S just as Jesus is a GOD then. Lu reconsider Barely is right sis IMO.
peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 22 2010,09:42) Lightenup…………..Barely is right is what he has said sis. Jesus is now and always will be (SUBJECT) to the Fathers Will. If he were not then he would not need God's Seven Spirits to be IN Him giving him the understandings need to reign. He is sited at the right hand of GOD not as GOD HIMSELF. WE are told to honor Jesus to the Glory of the Father. Jesus went to (HIS) GOD and our GOD (HIS) Father and OUR Father. So according to your reasonings we to are GOD”S just as Jesus is a GOD then. Lu reconsider Barely is right sis IMO. peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
Gene,
But I agree with some of what you but you do not see that the true Son of God is equal in nature to His Father much like every true example of father/son that we have on planet earth. We on the other hand do not come into sonship by our original nature, we have to be born again and we are adopted. He is not.LU,
Born again and Adopted…
What do you think happened to Jesus when he was “Born Again from the Dead” and “Begotten” by God.
Born again in the Spirit after his death in the Flesh.
Begotten of God as a “True Spirit Son”.JA,
He returned to the glory that He had before He became flesh. He was the true spirit Son before He became flesh and was the firstborn over all creation. After the true spirit Son became flesh, He died and was the firstborn again but this time the firstborn of the dead and returned to the glory of being the true spirit Son once again at the side of His Father.LU,
What you say is true.However, in what way did he profit from his noble deed any more than his “BRETHREN”.
What REWARD did he obtain that he 'would not have obtained in any case' had he not risked SIN and DEATH and Overcome them both, moreover, lowering himself into a 'dust' body and been humiliated by his own creation who claimed he didn't know what he was talking about and even wasn't from heaven and wasn't the Son of the Most High that they claim they knew.
All that just to return to what he had before? Or what he would have gotten in any case….
Does something niggle you somewhere – Something missing, perhaps!! How was he RAISED and above WHOM was he Raised and if Raised what position was he in Before he was Raised…, perhaps?
Bases uncovered – cover your bases – but with, and in, truthfulness…
JA,
He was the Spirit Son before He came in the flesh and after the resurrection. The Son, after the resurrection, however was also a mediator, a High Priest to a group of followers that can be with Him in His kingdom. Before the Son came in the flesh, those in heaven and earth could not be reconciled to the Father and have peace. We are His reward…go figure! Also and more importantly, pleasing His Father and giving His Father glory was His reward.But LU,
He was “Pleasing his Father and giving HIM glory” before he came to earth…so what figures?
There has to be more than what you saying …bang to rights!
Besides,
I have shown, even diagramatically, what I see as God's kingdom profile.Are you going to say that you haven't seen it.
I posted it at least TWICE clearly showing (GOD-> JESUS-> Saved Rulers 144,000 in Heaven -> Saved Rulers on Earth -> Paradise Mankind)
**(Amnesia Rules in this Forum)**
JA
Well, it answers your question…right? Before flesh, the Spirit Son did not have anyone in His kingdom. After the resurrection, many will enter His kingdom. Big difference!Wrong JA,
No struggle here. It is simple in the scriptures. So, did I answer your question about the reward the Son had for coming in the flesh?LU,
What you answer is certainly in the scriptures. but this answer was DRAWN out as a progressive response.
My ex-wife used this technique and it always infuriated me because it is not honest – but she could never be wrong (Husbands – you know what I mean!).You originally said …nothing really…just that he returned to his fathers side to bring him glory:
Quote He returned to the glory that He had before He became flesh. He was the true spirit Son before He became flesh and was the firstborn over all creation. After the true spirit Son became flesh, He died and was the firstborn again but this time the firstborn of the dead and returned to the glory of being the true spirit Son once again at the side of His Father. Then it was to be a mediator and High Priest:
Quote He was the Spirit Son before He came in the flesh and after the resurrection. The Son, after the resurrection, however was also a mediator, a High Priest to a group of followers that can be with Him in His kingdom. Before the Son came in the flesh, those in heaven and earth could not be reconciled to the Father and have peace. We are His reward…go figure! Also and more importantly, pleasing His Father and giving His Father glory was His reward. Now it is to receive a Reward of subjects in his Kingdom.
Why not say it from the beginning – and it is a 'TRU-ISM'. Tru-isms are ALWAYS right… that's why they are TRU-ISMs – right!
This REWARD is an AFTER-EFFECT Reward.
What was Jesus' Position BEFORE he came to earth as flesh and above whom was he RAISED when he was raised from the Dead to attain the REWARD for his noble deed.
Stating that he RECEIVED a REWARD does not answer the question but simple states an END EFFECT – The after-effect.Was “Jesus” original to be the Mediator – Didn't God REGRET that man had sinned – so then what if he had not sinned?
I think you are going to say he would still have been King – so what benefit did he achieve from risking his life seeing that he would have gotten the same reward anyway if man had not sinned…?Perhaps there is more to the whole thing that is being seen…!
JA
If it will make you feel less angry, I did mention the reward of followers with Him (the Son) in His (the Son's) kingdom when I mentioned the High Priest and Mediator. Maybe you glossed over that part.
Quote He was the Spirit Son before He came in the flesh and after the resurrection. The Son, after the resurrection, however was also a mediator, a High Priest to a group of followers that can be with Him in His kingdom. Before the Son came in the flesh, those in heaven and earth could not be reconciled to the Father and have peace. We are His reward…go figure! Also and more importantly, pleasing His Father and giving His Father glory was His reward. JA,
You ask:Quote Was “Jesus” original to be the Mediator – Didn't God REGRET that man had sinned – so then what if he had not sinned?
I think you are going to say he would still have been King – so what benefit did he achieve from risking his life seeing that he would have gotten the same reward anyway if man had not sinned…?If man had not sinned, the Son would have gotten brothers/followers without having come in the flesh. Man sinned and so the Son had to come to redeem His brothers/followers.
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