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- May 13, 2021 at 7:18 am#870668gadam123Participant
For brother Gene on Hebrews 2:5-9 quoting Psalms 8:3-6
(The Hebrew word ’adam means a human being of either gender. I translate adam in verse 4 with the inexact “man” only in order to match the masculine gender of the Hebrew singular pronouns [“him”] and to underline the parallelism with “son of man” [ben ’adam]).
{Verse 5, the NRSV translates this phrase “a little lower than God” and includes a note indicating that it can also be translated “than the divine beings or angels.” The Hebrew word in question here is the curious noun elohim, which is plural in form, but in the Bible it usually refers to the god of Israel. Whether it means “God” or “gods” must be determined from context. Furthermore, the Hebrew alphabet has no capital letters, and so translators must decide when to capitalize a noun: should it be “Gods” or “gods”?}
The author of Hebrews exploits one particular poetic feature of Psalm 8: its use of singular nouns and pronouns to refer to the human race, just as English speakers use the singular “humanity” (or, in noninclusive language, “man”).
The two lines of verse 4 are arranged in a poetic format called synonymous parallelism, a literary device common in biblical poetry, in which two lines express the same thought in different words. The terms “man” and “son of man” thus both refer to human beings in general, or, in this specific context, to insignificant human creatures. The author of Hebrews takes advantage of the ambiguity in the singular form of the words that refer to humanity, and uses that ambiguity to draw an interesting distinction. He starts by making a simple observation about the way things are: it is not yet true that everything in the world is under human control (Heb 2:8). So, the author reasons, the last bit of verse 6 in the psalm (“putting all things under his feet”) cannot be true if “his” means “humanity’s.”
Therefore, the author proposes in Heb 2:9 that “his” refers to one extraordinary individual: Jesus
(of course). Here is the author’s argument in his own words, which come immediately after his quotation of Ps 8:4–6; the ambiguous pronouns are translated here both ways in order to highlight their double meanings:8b Now in subjecting all things to him/them, God left nothing outside his/their control. As it is, however, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him/them,
9 but we do see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, now crowned
with glory and honor. (Heb 2:8b–9a)The argument is rather ingenious, and it shows how thoughtfully the author engages the OT. Naturally, no one reading Psalm 8 on its own would imagine that it is about a single individual, much less about the messiah.
Hope you could follow the arguments. The Psalm 8 was only talking about human beings in general but not about any specific individual.
May 13, 2021 at 8:55 am#870671ProclaimerParticipantNot one verse from Tanach proves the messiahship of Jesus.
Isaiah 53
1
Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2
He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3
He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4
Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.
5
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
6
We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7
He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.
8
By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
9
He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10
Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11
After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light [of life] and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
12
Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.May 13, 2021 at 12:13 pm#870673GeneBalthropParticipantAdam……I see it as the author saying that Jesus was exactly as we “now” are, being made a little lower then the angel’s are for the tasting of death, exactly as we “now” are. But after his resurrection he, “now” has received the Glory and Honor, and “all” thing put under his, as it will be for all of mankind’s feet also, he is the “now” recipient of what we all will receive after our resurrection from the dead just as he did.
Scriptures says “we are heirs and “joint” heirs’, With Christ Jesus”I see it as saying Jesus was a real human being exactly as we are, but “all” things were not under his feet, when he walked this earth either, but now they are, the same applies to us just as it did for him. I see it Adam.
The author was doing two thing , one tying Jesus exact identity to us, the second giving us a hope of attaining to the full measure, because as he “was” , so are we “now”, and as he became so will we. That’s the way I see it Adam.peace and love to you and yours Adam……….gene
May 13, 2021 at 6:42 pm#870674gadam123ParticipantFor proclaimer….
ISAIAH 53:
In the original Hebrew texts, there are no chapter divisions, and Jew and Christian alike agree that chapter 53 is actually a continuation of the prophecy which begins at 52:13. Accordingly, our analysis must begin at that verse.52:13 “Behold, My servant will prosper.” Israel in the singular is called God’s servant throughout Isaiah, both explicitly (Isa. 41:8-9; 44:1-2; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3) and implicitly (Isa. 42:19-20; 43:10) – the Messiah is not. Other references to Israel as God’s servant include Jer. 30:10 (note that in Jer. 30:17, the servant Israel is regarded by the nations as an outcast, forsaken by God, as in Isa. 53:4); Jer. 46:27-28; Ps. 136:22; Lk. 1:54. ALSO: Given the Christian view that Jesus is God, is God His own servant?
52:15 – 53:1 “So shall he (the servant) startle many nations, the kings will stand speechless; For that which had not been told them they shall see and that which they had not heard shall they ponder. Who would believe what we have heard?” Quite clearly, the nations and their kings will be amazed at what happens to the “servant of the L-rd,” and they will say “who would believe what we have heard?”. 52:15 tells us explicitly that it is the nations of the world, the gentiles, who are doing the talking in Isaiah 53. See, also, Micah 7:12-17, which speaks of the nations’ astonishment when the Jewish people again blossom in the Messianic age.
53:1 “And to whom has the arm of the L-rd been revealed?” In Isaiah, and throughout our Scriptures, God’s “arm” refers to the physical redemption of the Jewish people from the oppression of other nations (see, e.g., Isa. 52:8-12; Isa. 63:12; Deut. 4:34; Deut. 7:19; Ps. 44:3).
53:3 “Despised and rejected of men.” While this is clearly applicable to Israel (see Isa. 60:15; Ps. 44:13-14), it cannot be reconciled with the New Testament account of Jesus, a man who was supposedly “praised by all” (Lk. 4:14-15) and followed by multitudes (Matt. 4:25), who would later acclaim him as a prophet upon his triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Matt. 21:9-11). Even as he was taken to be crucified, a multitude bemoaned his fate (Lk. 23:27). Jesus had to be taken by stealth, as the rulers feared “a riot of the people” (Mk. 14:1-2).
53:3 “A man of pains and acquainted with disease.” Israel’s adversities are frequently likened to sickness – see, e.g., Isa. 1:5-6; Jer. 10:19; Jer 30:12.
53:4 “Surely our diseases he carried and our pains he bore.” In Matt. 8:17, this is correctly translated, and said to be literally (not spiritually) fulfilled in Jesus’ healing of the sick, a reading inconsistent with the Christian mistranslation of 53:4 itself.
53:4 “Yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, smitten of G- D and afflicted.” See Jer. 30:17 – of God’s servant Israel (30:10), it is said by the nations, “It is Zion; no one cares for her.”
53:5 “But he was wounded from (NOTE: not for) our transgressions, he was crushed from (AGAIN: not for) our iniquities.” Whereas the nations had thought the Servant (Israel) was undergoing Divine retribution for its sins (53:4), they now realize that the Servant’s sufferings stemmed from their actions and sinfulness. This theme is further developed throughout our Jewish Scriptures – see, e.g., Jer. 50:7; Jer. 10:25. ALSO: Note that the Messiah “shall not fail nor be crushed till he has set the right in the earth” (Isa. 42:4).
53:7 “He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, and like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so he did not open his mouth.” Note that in the prior chapter (Isa. 52), Israel is said to have been oppressed and taken away without cause (52:4-5). A similar theme is developed in Psalm 44, wherein King David speaks of Israel’s faithfulness even in the face of gentile oppression (44:17- 18) and describes Israel as “sheep to be slaughtered” in the midst of the unfaithful gentile nations (44:22,11).
Regarding the claim that Jesus “did not open his mouth” when faced with oppression and affliction, see Matt. 27:46, Jn. 18:23, 36-37.
53:8 “From dominion and judgement he was taken away.” Note the correct translation of the Hebrew. The Christians are forced to mistranslate, since – by Jesus’ own testimony – he never had any rights to rulership or judgement, at least not on the “first coming.” See, e.g., Jn. 3:17; Jn. 8:15; Jn. 12:47; Jn. 18:36.
53:8 “He was cut off out of the land of the living.”
53:9 “His grave was assigned with wicked men.” See Ez. 37:11-14, wherein Israelis described as “cut off” and God promises to open its “graves” and bring Israel back into its own land. Other examples of figurative deaths include Ex. 10:17; 2 Sam. 9:8; 2 Sam. 16:9.
53:8 “From my peoples’ sins, there was injury to them.” Here the Prophet makes absolutely clear, to anyone familiar with Biblical Hebrew, that the oppressed Servant is a collective Servant, not a single individual. The Hebrew word “lamoh”, when used in our Scriptures, always means “to them” never “to him” and may be found, for example, in Psalm 99:7 – “They kept his testimonies, and the statute that He gave to them.”
53:9 “And with the rich in his deaths.” Perhaps King James should have changed the original Hebrew, which again makes clear that we are dealing with a collective Servant, i.e., Israel, which will “come to life” when the exile ends (Ez. 37:14).
53:9 “He had done no violence.” See Matt. 21:12; Mk. 11:15-16; Lk. 19:45; Lk. 19:27; Matt. 10:34 and Lk. 12:51; then judge for yourself whether this passage is truly consistent with the New Testament account of Jesus.
53:10 “He shall see his seed.” The Hebrew word for “seed”, used in this verse, always refers to physical descendants in our Jewish Scriptures. See, e.g., Gen. 12:7; Gen. 15:13; Gen. 46:6; Ex. 28:43. A different word, generally translated as “sons”, is used to refer to spiritual descendants (see Deut. 14:1, e.g.).
53:10 “He will prolong his days.” Not only did Jesus die young, but how could the days be prolonged of someone who is alleged to be God?
53:11 “With his knowledge the righteous one, my Servant, will cause many to be just.” Note again the correct translation: the Servant will cause many to be just, he will not “justify the many.” The Jewish mission is to serve as a “light to the nations” which will ultimately lead the world to a knowledge of the one true God, this both by example (Deut. 4:5-8; Zech. 8:23) and by instructing the nations in God’s Law (Isa. 2:3-4; Micah 4:2-3).
53:12 “Therefore, I will divide a portion to him with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty.” If Jesus is God, does the idea of reward have any meaning? Is it not rather the Jewish people – who righteously bore the sins of the world and yet remained faithful to God (Ps. 44) – who will be rewarded, and this in the manner described more fully in Isaiah chapters 52 and 54?
May 13, 2021 at 8:18 pm#870677gadam123ParticipantHello brother gene,
You: Adam……I see it as the author saying that Jesus was exactly as we “now” are, being made a little lower then the angel’s are for the tasting of death, exactly as we “now” are. But after his resurrection he, “now” has received the Glory and Honor, and “all” thing put under his, as it will be for all of mankind’s feet also, he is the “now” recipient of what we all will receive after our resurrection from the dead just as he did.
Scriptures says “we are heirs and “joint” heirs’, With Christ Jesus”Me: I know as Christians we draw the same conclusions on the Hebrews writer but if we critically examine the way he used the Psalm 8 for Jesus the super human whereas it was only talking about Man/human beings in general based on Gen 1:26 where God had given dominion to human beings in general.
You: The author was doing two thing , one tying Jesus exact identity to us, the second giving us a hope of attaining to the full measure, because as he “was” , so are we “now”, and as he became so will we. That’s the way I see it Adam.
Me: I can understand your view on Jesus being the human being similar to us. But the writer of Hebrews created much more role to Jesus than what is quoted by you if you read verses Heb 1:1-10 especially verse 10;
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands.
I hope you will note these ambiguities created by NT writers.
Peace and love…..Adam
May 14, 2021 at 1:41 am#870679GeneBalthropParticipantAdam…..I also believe that the term “servant of God” in the OT refers to Israel in most places. And has been misapplied to Jesus in places also.
Good scholarship Adam, glad you are here brother.
I have a question for you, scripture says Jesus showed his deciles where he was mentioned in scriptures, that he revealed to them showing who he actually was, it says he opened their minds to those scripture where he was mentioned . Can you please post the ones you think he was relating to brother.
peace and love to you and yours Adam……….geneMay 14, 2021 at 4:27 am#870680gadam123ParticipantHello brother Gene,
You: I have a question for you, scripture says Jesus showed his disciples where he was mentioned in scriptures, that he revealed to them showing who he actually was, it says he opened their minds to those scripture where he was mentioned . Can you please post the ones you think he was relating to brother.
Me: This comes under ‘Jesus fulfilled prophecy’. But again we don’t have original sayings of Jesus available to us except those are written by the NT writers like Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. If we consider writer of the Matthew, we found that he was not so much honest in applying the Hebrew prophecies to Jesus for example on Isaiah 7:14 regarding Virgin Birth of Jesus. I am quoting the few arguments on the fulfillment of prophecy as mentioned by Luke that supposedly uttered by Jesus ;
(1) In Jesus’ final prediction of his passion he states, “See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written about the Human One(son of man) by the prophets will be fulfilled, for he will be handed over to the gentiles” (Luke 18:31–32). Luke’s source here (Mark 10:33) reads, “See we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Human One will be handed over.” By adding “and everything that is written about the Human One by the prophets will be fulfilled,” Luke emphasizes that Jesus’ suffering and death fulfills prophecy. The “everything” implies a large number of prophecies, of which, however, Luke identifies only one (see Luke 22:37).
(2) The second assertion that Jesus fulfills prophecies occurs in the famous scene in which the risen Jesus walks incognito with two of his disciples to the village of Emmaus. The two disciples, who were “prevented
from recognizing him” (Luke 24:16), discuss his death and wonder about reports of his resurrection, after which Jesus says to them,
25 “You people are so dim, so reluctant to trust everything the prophets have said! 26Wasn’t the Anointed One destined to endure those things and enter into his glory?”27 Then, starting with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted for them every passage of scripture that referred to himself. (Luke 24:25–27)
(3) The third expression of this theme also occurs after the resurrection and comprises most of the risen Jesus’ parting words.
44 Then he said to them, “This is the message I gave you while I was still with you: everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms is destined to be fulfilled.”45 Then he prepared their minds to understand the scriptures.
46 He said to them, “This is what is written: the Anointed One will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day.
47And all peoples will be called on to repent for the forgiveness of sins, beginning from Jerusalem.” (Luke 24:44–47)
Those last two scenes are unique to Luke. No other gospel reports that the risen Jesus explained how he had fulfilled the scriptures. The scope of the two statements is both broad and indefinite; verses 27 and 44 give the prophecy in the gospel of Luke and the Acts of the apostles impression that many predictions are involved. Verses 26 and 46 state that these many predictions are primarily about Jesus’ death and resurrection, though verse 47 adds that some of the predictions are not about Jesus but about what his followers are to do after his death. Neither 24:25–27 nor 24:44–47 hints that Jesus fulfilled prophecy during his lifetime—all the interest is on his death and its aftermath. Those last two scenes feature the risen Jesus, which is important for two interrelated reasons. First, the presence of the risen Jesus in these scenes shows that Luke is aware that Jesus’ followers did not realize that he had fulfilled prophecy until after his death (see also John 2:19–22). Luke thus confirms the thesis that the belief that Jesus fulfills prophecy is retrospective, one that arises as those who already believe in Jesus’ resurrection look back at the stories about him and ponder them in relation to the OT. As we have seen before, belief in Jesus came first, and belief that he fulfilled prophecy came after—and because of that first belief—not the other way around.
Second, because it is about the risen Jesus, Luke 24:45 is quite revealing:
“Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures.” According to this verse, the ability to recognize Jesus in the OT is a special gift imparted directly by the risen Jesus. Those not blessed in this way are, by implication, unable “to understand the scriptures.” This notion confirms what we have seen before: the claims that Jesus fulfilled prophecy are not convincing except to those who already believe in him.In summary, the two statements by the risen Jesus in Luke make the following points:
a. Jesus fulfilled many prophecies.
b. The prophecies he fulfilled had to do with his passion, death, and resurrection rather than with details of his life.
c. His followers were unaware that Jesus fulfilled prophecies until they looked back from the perspective of their belief in his resurrection.
d. One must receive spiritual insight from the risen Jesus before one can properly understand the OT.If we were informed about all that before reading the whole gospel—imagine that the Gospel of Luke was a movie and that those two crucial scenes in chapter 24 (Luke 24:25–27 and 44–47, above) were part of the preview—we might well be in doubt about what to expect as the narrative unfolds. On the one hand, since we were told that Jesus fulfilled many prophecies, we might expect Luke to point out some of them along the way, as do Matthew and John. On the other hand, since we were also told that the fulfillment of
those numerous prophecies was not apparent to Jesus’ followers until after his resurrection, we equally might expect Luke to leave his audience in the same situation as the characters in the story—and so not learn about how Jesus fulfilled prophecies until the risen Jesus drew attention to them.Hope these arguments I quoted above would have answered your queries on Jesus’ own words on prophecy fulfillment by him.
May 14, 2021 at 4:41 am#870681Danny DabbsParticipantHi Adam,
Well, I believe that everything written in the Old and New Testament was inspired by God. 2 Timothy 3:16
Not one single misapplication…God bless, Danny
May 14, 2021 at 4:47 am#870682gadam123ParticipantHi Danny,
You: Well, I believe that everything written in the Old and New Testament was inspired by God. 2 Timothy 3:16
Not one single misapplication
Me: Our beliefs are personal and we are critically arguing the application of Hebrew scriptures by the NT writers on this thread.
May 14, 2021 at 5:00 am#870683Danny DabbsParticipantHi Adam,
All scripture is given by inspiration of God…2 Timothy 3:16
So there can’t be any Misquoting.
May 14, 2021 at 5:23 am#870684gadam123ParticipantHi Danny, please go through the posts and share your views. 2 Tim 3:16 is the opinion of it’s writer. The scriptures he meant were Hebrew scriptures available to the NT writers.
May 14, 2021 at 5:39 am#870685GeneBalthropParticipantAdam…..Ok, but you said Jesus brought out, those “prophecies ” correct? So what I am asking you, which prophecies do you see, or think, was about him. Can you give us your opinion brother?
I find what you are saying very interesting , because I also do believe the New Testament writing and some of the Old Testament has been corrupted from there original texts also. But I believe most of it has been not so much by the New Testament writers themselves , but by “trinitarian” translators, who altered sentence structures, by changing the words , adding commas, using unspecific terminology, which does cloud the truth.
I think a good example of this is found in 2ths2 , I would like to dig deep into that prophesy given from , the Apostle Paul. I will try to find where we discussed it before here, and would like your opinion of what I wrote on it brother.
I am very excited you are here, you cause us to try to think outside the box, fallen Christianity has place most in. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Adam……..gene
May 14, 2021 at 5:44 am#870686Danny DabbsParticipantMay 14, 2021 at 8:45 am#870687carmelParticipant.
May 14, 2021 at 10:09 am#870689carmelParticipantHi Gadam,
YOU: Among the major problems with Matthew’s attribution of this verse to Jesus is that in context the entire chapter in Hoshea is clearly speaking about the Jewish people as “My son.” This is a very common metaphor in Tanach, where the collective body of the Jewish people is called “God’s son,” or “firstborn.”
Me: You elaborated CONVINCINGLY regarding Israel as the servant in Isaiah.
Are you in the position to do the same regarding Israel as “THE SON OF GOD” since it is very COMMON?
I am asking this as I wondered why Israel was called as such!
Also, I noticed that despite the fact that Israel as such was never a CHILD but a name given to Jacob, Hosea still addressed him as a CHILD. What are your comments, please?
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
May 14, 2021 at 6:53 pm#870694gadam123ParticipantHi Danny,
You: So you don’t believe the NT writers were inspired by God?
Me: There is no question of belief here as we are critically debating on the Christian writings.
May 14, 2021 at 8:47 pm#870698gadam123ParticipantHello brother Gene, thanks again for your quick reply on my post.
You: Adam…..Ok, but you said Jesus brought out, those “prophecies ” correct? So what I am asking you, which prophecies do you see, or think, was about him. Can you give us your opinion brother?
Me: It was not Jesus who brought out the ‘prophecies’ but the Gospel writer Luke claimed so. Please understand me I am not claiming any prophecy for Jesus as I am on neutral ground. We are on this thread to debate critically the prophetic claims made by the NT writers on Jesus to prove that he was the promised Jewish Messiah.
You: I find what you are saying very interesting , because I also do believe the New Testament writing and some of the Old Testament has been corrupted from there original texts also. But I believe most of it has been not so much by the New Testament writers themselves , but by “trinitarian” translators, who altered sentence structures, by changing the words , adding commas, using unspecific terminology, which does cloud the truth.
Me: I appreciate your goodness towards me. I request you to move forward from the assumptions that “Trinitarian” translators misquoting NT scriptures. You will find much truth. I am not asking you to forgo your beliefs as everyone of us here have something to claim.
You: I think a good example of this is found in 2ths2 , I would like to dig deep into that prophesy given from , the Apostle Paul. I will try to find where we discussed it before here, and would like your opinion of what I wrote on it brother.
Me: In fact I am doing much research on Jesus’ Parousia these days. Yes 2 Thessalonians 2 is the quite interesting material on Jesus’ Parousia. I am going to start this new debate on Jesus’ promise of Parousia on another thread. Please join there for the interesting arguments on Parousia including Paul’s 2Thes2.
May 14, 2021 at 10:09 pm#870703ProclaimerParticipantYou say that Jesus hasn’t fulfilled any Old Testament prophecies. However this one is so recognisable as Jesus that even an Atheist would guess it to be Jesus, even if they didn’t believe that Jesus was a real historical person. So you are clearly wrong.
Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.May 14, 2021 at 10:17 pm#870704gadam123ParticipantHello Proclaimer,
You: You say that Jesus hasn’t fulfilled any Old Testament prophecies. However this one is so recognisable as Jesus that even an Atheist would guess it to be Jesus, even if they didn’t believe that Jesus was a real historical person. So you are clearly wrong.
Isaiah 53
Me: I have already presented my arguments on Isaiah 53 in my earlier reply as it was about nation Israel as God’s servant.
May 14, 2021 at 10:54 pm#870705gadam123ParticipantHello Carmel,
You: You elaborated CONVINCINGLY regarding Israel as the servant in Isaiah.
Me: Thank you for your appreciation.
You: Are you in the position to do the same regarding Israel as “THE SON OF GOD” since it is very COMMON?
I am asking this as I wondered why Israel was called as such!
Also, I noticed that despite the fact that Israel as such was never a CHILD but a name given to Jacob, Hosea still addressed him as a CHILD. What are your comments, please?
Me: Yes Hebrew Bible clearly quotes Israel as God’s son. The following are scriptures;
“When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. The more they were called, the more they went away; they kept sacrificing to the Baals and burning offerings to idols” – (Hosea 11:1–7)
Israel as Son of God in Torah: In Exodus 4:22, God declares, “Israel is my first-born son.” This image of the individual, Israel, continues through this and the remaining books of Torah. The masculine singular for Israel, the son, occurs repeatedly. No imperative is addressed to Israel other than in the form of the masculine singular. There is no hint in any passage that the reader should think of Israel as feminine. The book of Deuteronomy brings to fullness the theme of Israel as the son of God. The focus on sonship suggests responsibility and growth for the individual, Israel.
Hope the above would answer your query.
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