Christian behavior

[mikeboll64]

Hi All,

It seems to me and some others that certain behaviors on HN have been tolerated for too long.  Some of the things we say to, and about each other are anything but Christian; and some people even downright lie about another.  I, for one would like to see this behavior curbed.

I think we sometimes forget that we have non-members reading our posts – some of them maybe on the verge of giving their lives over to God and His Christ.  Let's not scare them off with our poor behavior and mean spirited posts.

I'm not talking about the occasional "you're an idiot" stuff……although that is definitely not Christian behavior either.  I'm talking about the posts that actually border on hate.  I'm talking about people claiming something about another member that isn't even close to being true.  This includes twisting someone's words.

This is what I propose:  If you have had someone post something hateful or untrue about you or your beliefs, bring it up here in this thread.  Paste what was said about you and by whom.  That person can either:

1.  Defend themselves by explaining and showing proof that what they posted was not a lie or a twisting of your words.

2.  Appeal their case to the moderators that the "hateful" thing they said should not be considered "crossing the line" due to the circumstances involved.  (A moderator will then decide if a warning block is required or not.)

3.  Publicly apologize for the offense directly to you on this thread to avoid a warning block.

4.  Ignore your post and automatically receive a warning block from a moderator.

Together, we can make HeavenNet a place where Christians act and post with love and respect for each other, despite the occasional good natured ribbing or sarcasm.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Hi Martian,

You said this about me in the John 6:62 thread on Aug 4th:

I simply saw no point in going on with someone that is obviously dishonest. I choose to not debate with someone from the IMM.
For those of you who do not remember IMM is Imitating Monkeys ministry. That is how Mike compares following Christ.

I would like you to either show where I have ever been "dishonest" with you, or likened following Christ to "imitating monkeys"………..

OR

You can apologize for your untrue statements.

mike

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote

occasional "you're an idiot" stuff……

haha Thats SF! (so funny)

[Arnold]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 05 2010,19:49)

Quote occasional "you're an idiot" stuff…… haha Thats SF! (so funny)

Even that should not be tolerated, it is not like a Christian at all…. I also believe that the Moderators are somewhat slake in given a tile. Martian did receive a warning from Heaven, but not a tile so all could see that He got a warning. What is so funny, that at the same time I got a false warning from someone. Who it was I just guessed. He or Her signed it Cheers. So I know it did not come from a Moderator….Heaven always has His Aviator on His posts….
It did not scare me at all. I know who it was…..
Peace Irene

[Arnold]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 05 2010,13:28)

Hi All, It seems to me and some others that certain behaviors on HN have been tolerated for too long.  Some of the things we say to, and about each other are anything but Christian; and some people even downright lie about another.  I, for one would like to see this behavior curbed. I think we sometimes forget that we have non-members reading our posts – some of them maybe on the verge of giving their lives over to God and His Christ.  Let's not scare them off with our poor behavior and mean spirited posts. I'm not talking about the occasional "you're an idiot" stuff……although that is definitely not Christian behavior either.  I'm talking about the posts that actually border on hate.  I'm talking about people claiming something about another member that isn't even close to being true.  This includes twisting someone's words. This is what I propose:  If you have had someone post something hateful or untrue about you or your beliefs, bring it up here in this thread.  Paste what was said about you and by whom.  That person can either: 1.  Defend themselves by explaining and showing proof that what they posted was not a lie or a twisting of your words. 2.  Appeal their case to the moderators that the "hateful" thing they said should not be considered "crossing the line" due to the circumstances involved.  (A moderator will then decide if a warning block is required or not.) 3.  Publicly apologize for the offense directly to you on this thread to avoid a warning block. 4.  Ignore your post and automatically receive a warning block from a moderator. Together, we can make HeavenNet a place where Christians act and post with love and respect for each other, despite the occasional good natured ribbing or sarcasm. peace and love, mike

Mike! I wonder though if whoever is the offender will come here or even post. I really doubt it…. Time will tell…Will the Moderator honor your request?.Irene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Good idea!

Here is one.

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2010,20:55)

Keith, Augustine is a trinitarian and I am not, nor do I pretend to be (like some on here).

Kathi is implying that Jack and myself are being dishonest.

Can she tell us what the definition of a Trinitarian is? Can she prove that all the Trinitarian Fathers believed exactly the same?

What is the definition of a Christian?

Do all Christians believe the same or do they have to believe the same to be a Christian?

Is this what you are talking about Mike?

WJ

[Lightenup]

Keith,
Jack and you do not believe that the second person of the trinity was always a son? The trinitarians believe that, you know that don't you? To be a true trinitarian, means that you believe in the trinity doctrine. In the trinity doctrine, the Son is co-eternal with the Father but that is not what you believe…hence, you do not fully accept the trinity doctrine…hence, you are not true trinitarians.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 06 2010,01:27)

Keith, Jack and you do not believe that the second person of the trinity was always a son?  The trinitarians believe that, you know that don't you?  To be a true trinitarian, means that you believe in the trinity doctrine.  In the trinity doctrine, the Son is co-eternal with the Father but that is not what you believe…hence, you do not fully accept the trinity doctrine…hence, you are not true trinitarians.

This is where im at Kathi.

[Lightenup]

SF,
Why don't you join us in the pre-existence thread and tell us more about where you are in this. You used to be a trinitarian, right? But now you don't agree with the trinity? Is that right? Let's talk about it in either the trinity thread or the pre-existence thread. This thread would not be the best place.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 06 2010,04:37)

Good idea! Here is one. Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2010,20:55) Keith, Augustine is a trinitarian and I am not, nor do I pretend to be (like some on here). Kathi is implying that Jack and myself are being dishonest. Can she tell us what the definition of a Trinitarian is? Can she prove that all the Trinitarian Fathers believed exactly the same? What is the definition of a Christian? Do all Christians believe the same or do they have to believe the same to be a Christian? Is this what you are talking about Mike? WJ

Hi Keith,

Not exactly.  It should not be the moderator's place to decide which one of you are right on a discussion matter.  That's what all of HN is for, to defend your postition and attack the one's that you see as false.  

I just thought that if someone gets out of line by being downright hateful, or especially lying about another, they should be reprimanded for it.  Maybe a couple of blocks would make us all think before we post in anger.

When Jack was calling me a heretic, it was his opinion that he was free to state.  But if I post to Jack, "Even WJ agrees with me about what Ignatius is saying", that's an outright lie, and I should have to apologize and retract the statement, or get a block.  

As I understand it, 5 blocks and your out, right?  This would be a good deterent, IMO, to stop the lying about others.  

My main concern is the lies and the REALLY hateful stuff for starters, not whether you are a "real" trinitarian in Kathi's opinion.

Irene makes a good point about whether the accused will even visit this thread.  I guess we could pm them and give them a week or something, and if they still didn't defend what they said, they could get a block by default?

I don't even know if this thread was a good idea.  Martian has flat out LIED about me a couple of times, and as a moderator I could give a warning……but what about everyone else?  I thought this would be a way for everyone to clear their name if they wanted to. It would also give the accused a chance to defend what they said.

My thinking was that after a couple blocks, the offender would just stop lying or being hateful.

Any feedback?

mike

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 06 2010,03:22)

SF, Why don't you join us in the pre-existence thread and tell us more about where you are in this.  You used to be a trinitarian, right?  But now you don't agree with the trinity?  Is that right?  Let's talk about it in either the trinity thread or the pre-existence thread.  This thread would not be the best place.

LU,
I already did join that thread…. I just dont remember what I said, bc its already in the past.
and it has 800pg already, I already lost track of it.
make a new thread or what not.

[shimmer]

I agree and I will confess, I was upset over something on the forum, [been and gone now], I felt like a change, so I changed my username, I'm really karmarie But Yes, this forum can hurt people at times, alot of the behaviour is unchristianlike and should be addressed.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 05 2010,13:38)

Hi Martian, You said this about me in the John 6:62 thread on Aug 4th: I simply saw no point in going on with someone that is obviously dishonest. I choose to not debate with someone from the IMM. For those of you who do not remember IMM is Imitating Monkeys ministry. That is how Mike compares following Christ. I would like you to either show where I have ever been "dishonest" with you, or likened following Christ to "imitating monkeys"……….. OR You can apologize for your untrue statements. mike

I think that is fair enough.

I think you owe Mike an explanation at least, Martian.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Arnold @ Aug. 06 2010,02:49)

Even that should not be tolerated, it is not like a Christian at all…. I also believe that the Moderators are somewhat slake in given a tile.  Martian did receive a warning from Heaven, but not a tile so all could see that He got a warning.  What is so funny, that at the same time I got a false warning from someone.  Who it was I just guessed.  He or Her signed it Cheers.  So I know it did not come from a Moderator….Heaven always has His Aviator on His posts…. It did not scare me at all.  I know who it was….. Peace Irene

A person usually gets a warning without a penalty, and if they continue, they get penalties.

I think that moderators needs to be graceful and remember that the mercy we show ill be the same mercy that God shows us.

The system works fine if posts are reported and a repeat offender will not get away with it if the offending posts are reported.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 07 2010,13:46)

I agree and I will confess, I was upset over something on the forum, [been and gone now], I felt like a change, so I changed my username, I'm really karmarie But Yes, this forum can hurt people at times, alot of the behaviour is unchristianlike and should be addressed.

I agree.

Those who hurt others are accountable for what they have done if what they do is unjustified. Some members here preach their doctrine strongly, but also have very little fruit to demonstrate that they have a good and strong faith.

They will even get nasty as a defense of their doctrine. That is really an oxymoron.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2010,15:27)

Keith, Jack and you do not believe that the second person of the trinity was always a son?  The trinitarians believe that, you know that don't you?  To be a true trinitarian, means that you believe in the trinity doctrine.  In the trinity doctrine, the Son is co-eternal with the Father but that is not what you believe…hence, you do not fully accept the trinity doctrine…hence, you are not true trinitarians.

Kathi

Unless you can prove what a "true Trinitarian" is and that they all agreed to the letter, then your statement is a false accusation.

Not to mention you need to prove that I am not sincere in my faith and belief as a Trinitarian.

This is simply an attack on the person and a false accusation of Jack and I of being dishonest about our faith.

Do "Christians" agree on every issue? Does that mean they are not a "Christian"?

You said…

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2010,20:55)

Keith, Augustine is a trinitarian and I am not, nor do I pretend to be (like some on here).

You should withdraw this false accusation unless you can prove that I am dishonest in my faith.

WJ

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 07 2010,07:46)

I agree and I will confess, I was upset over something on the forum, [been and gone now], I felt like a change, so I changed my username, I'm really karmarie But Yes, this forum can hurt people at times, alot of the behaviour is unchristianlike and should be addressed.

Oh Wow,
You could have told us this before!!!!

hmph (crys)

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 07 2010,16:50)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2010,15:27) Keith, Jack and you do not believe that the second person of the trinity was always a son?  The trinitarians believe that, you know that don't you?  To be a true trinitarian, means that you believe in the trinity doctrine.  In the trinity doctrine, the Son is co-eternal with the Father but that is not what you believe…hence, you do not fully accept the trinity doctrine…hence, you are not true trinitarians. Kathi Unless you can prove what a "true Trinitarian" is and that they all agreed to the letter, then your statement is a false accusation. Not to mention you need to prove that I am not sincere in my faith and belief as a Trinitarian. This is simply an attack on the person and a false accusation of Jack and I of being dishonest about our faith. Do "Christians" agree on every issue? Does that mean they are not a "Christian"? You said… Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2010,20:55) Keith, Augustine is a trinitarian and I am not, nor do I pretend to be (like some on here). You should withdraw this false accusation unless you can prove that I am dishonest in my faith. WJ

Keith,

Below I provide documentation that shows that Tertullian and the Apologists taught that the Word existed in two stages. Tertullian and the Apologists taught that Jesus was the Eternal Word who became Son.

I posted this for Kathi last year and she has apparently forgotten about it. I showed her that the Apologist Trinitarians agree with you and me that the Word became Son.

What makes a trinitarian a trinitarian is the belief that the Word Himself is eternal. Not all trinitarians believe that Jesus is the "eternally generated" Son.

Quote

Like the Apologists, Tertullian posited a two-stage existence in the Word: First as immanent within the Father, then as expressed at the Son's generation: There are some who allege that even Genesis opens thus in Hebrew: "In the beginning God made for Himself a Son." As there is no ground for this, I am led to other arguments derived from God's own dispensation, in which He existed before the creation of the world, up to the generation of the Son. For before all things God was alone – being in Himself and for Himself universe, and space, and all things. Moreover, He was alone, because there was nothing external to Him but Himself. Yet even not then was He alone; for He had with Him that which He possessed in Himself, that is to say, His own Reason. For God is rational, and Reason was first in Him; and so all things were from Himself. This Reason is His own Thought (or Consciousness) which the Greeks call logos, by which term we also designate Word or Discourse and therefore it is now usual with our people, owing to the mere simple interpretation of the term, to say that the Word was in the beginning with God; although it would be more suita ble to regard Reason as the more ancient; because God had not Word from the beginning, but He had Reason even before the beginning; because also Word itself consists of Reason, which it thus proves to have been the prior existence as being its own substan ce…. He became also the Son of God, and was begotten when He proceeded forth from Him (from chs. 5,7).

NOTE: Above Tertullian argued against those who alleged that there was a time when God was alone.

Quote

For Tertullian, the Word became the Son of God when it was begotten of the Father prior to creation. The Son, though God by nature, thus occupies a subordinate role within the divine economy. Similarly, the Holy Spirit occupies a status of third rank: Everything which proceeds from something else must needs be second to that from which it proceeds, without being on that account separated. Where, however, there is a second, there must be two; and where there is a third, there must be three. Now the Spirit indeed is third from God and the Son; just as the fruit of the tree is third from the root, or as the stream out of the river is third from the fountain, or as the apex of the ray is third from the sun. Nothing, however, is alien from that original source whence it derives its own properties. In like manner the Trinity, flowing down from the Father through intertwined and connected steps, does not at all disturb the Monarchy, whilst at the same time guards the state of the Economy (ch. 9). As can be seen in this description of the divine economy, the Son and the Spirit are not divine in a static way but in a dynamic way; they proceed from the one substance as they have separate tasks to fulfill. They are three in order and distinction, but one in substance. The Father is not the same as the Son, since they differ one from another in the mode of their being. For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as He Himself acknowledges: "My Father is greater than I" [John 14:28]. In the Psalm His inferiority is described as being "a little lower than the angels" [Psa. 8:5]. Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son, inasmuch as He who begets is one, and He who is begotten is another;…the Son is also distinct from the Father; so that He showed a third degree in the Paraclete, as we believe the second degree is in the Son, by reason of the order observed in the Economy (ch. 9).

There were other Trinitarian fathers who agreed with Tertullian and the Apologists  that the Word became Son.

Quote

Considering this language it is easy to see why this is frequently called "the economic Trinity." Irenaeus of Lyons and Hippolytus of Rome, other second- and third-century theologians, also thought about the Trinity in this way.

But Origen was in sharp contrast to Tertullian and the Apologists:

Quote

This changed significantly with the third-century Origen. Although Origen's Trinity was also hierarchical, the Son and the Spirit being subordinate to the Father, Origen conceived of the Trinity as God's eternal mode of being, not as an economy. In sharp contrast to the Apologists and Tertullian, Origen refused to postulate two stages in the existence of the Word. Rather, he held that the Word is eternally being generated by the Father (D e princ. 1.2.2).

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/trinity1.html#Economic

Now there it is! There were two kinds of Trinitarians. There was Tertullian and the Apologists who taught that the Word existed in two stages and that He became Son (Keith and I). Then there were those who believed in the "eternal generation" theory which taught that Christ is the eternal Son.

BOTH GROUPS WERE TRINITARIANS!

DO YOU GOT IT NOW KATHI? KEITH AND I ARE TRINITARIANS BECAUSE WE BELIEVE THAT THE WORD IS ETERNAL. BUT WE SIDE WITH TERTULLIAN AND THE APOLOGISTS WHO TAUGHT THAT THE WORD BECAME SON.

You have been informed once again Kathi. If you continue to accuse Keith and I of "pretending" to be Trinitarians you become a false acccuser! This I submit is not Christian behavior. Is it better to "pretend" to be a Christian?

the Roo

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Aug. 08 2010,05:34)

BOTH GROUPS WERE TRINITARIANS! DO YOU GOT IT NOW KATHI? KEITH AND I ARE TRINITARIANS BECAUSE WE BELIEVE THAT THE WORD IS ETERNAL. BUT WE SIDE WITH TERTULLIAN AND THE APOLOGISTS WHO TAUGHT THAT THE WORD BECAME SON. You have been informed once again Kathi. If you continue to accuse Keith and I of "pretending" to be Trinitarians you become a false acccuser! This I submit is not Christian behavior. Is it better to "pretend" to be a Christian?

Hey Keith and Jack,

I'm trying not to take sides on this one, but just an observation:

If there are different "sub-cultures" of trinitarians, maybe there are different names for those "sub-cultures"?  Maybe you and Keith should call yourselves "Tertullian Trinitarians" or something?  

Because I see Kathi's point and agree with her that it sure doesn't seem like Ignatius and Eusebius, who you guys call trinitarians, believed what you guys believe.  

Btw Irene, kudos to Georg.  It seems like Jack's post confirms that Tertullian WAS the goofball that invented that flawed man-made doctrine of a trinity god.  

peace and love,
mike

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2010,07:13)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Aug. 08 2010,05:34) BOTH GROUPS WERE TRINITARIANS! DO YOU GOT IT NOW KATHI? KEITH AND I ARE TRINITARIANS BECAUSE WE BELIEVE THAT THE WORD IS ETERNAL. BUT WE SIDE WITH TERTULLIAN AND THE APOLOGISTS WHO TAUGHT THAT THE WORD BECAME SON. You have been informed once again Kathi. If you continue to accuse Keith and I of "pretending" to be Trinitarians you become a false acccuser! This I submit is not Christian behavior. Is it better to "pretend" to be a Christian? Hey Keith and Jack, I'm trying not to take sides on this one, but just an observation: If there are different "sub-cultures" of trinitarians, maybe there are different names for those "sub-cultures"?  Maybe you and Keith should call yourselves "Tertullian Trinitarians" or something?   Because I see Kathi's point and agree with her that it sure doesn't seem like Ignatius and Eusebius, who you guys call trinitarians, believed what you guys believe.   Btw Irene, kudos to Georg.  It seems like Jack's post confirms that Tertullian WAS the goofball that invented that flawed man-made doctrine of a trinity god.   peace and love, mike

The trinity concept goes way further back than Tertullian. Note the three sections I bolded in red.The first points out the two persons Moses called "YHWH" in Genesis 19:24. The second one is a quotation from a  manuscript which calls Jesus God. The third one says that Christ was the adviser in creation. It was the Word (i.e., the Speaker) who said, "Let US make man in OUR image."

Note the LOOOONG list of pre-Tertullian confessions of the divinity of our Lord Jesus. The more Kathi rewrites history the more she loses her credibility.

Quote

Regarding the "US", in Gen 1:26 "Let us make man in our image": Regarding two Yahweh’s in Gen 19:24, "Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh out of heaven." 50 AD The Huleatt Manuscript 50 AD The Huleatt Manuscript "She poured it [the perfume] over his [Jesus'] hair when he sat at the table. But, when the disciples saw it, they were indignant. . . . God, aware of this, said to them: 'Why do you trouble this woman? She has done [a beautiful thing for me.] . . . Then one of the Twelve, who was called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priest and said, 'What will you give me for my work?' [Matt. 26:7-15]" (Huleatt fragments 1-3). 74 AD The Letter of Barnabas 74 AD The Letter of Barnabas "And further, my brethren, if the Lord [Jesus] endured to suffer for our soul, he being the Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, 'Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness,' understand how it was that he endured to suffer at the hand of men" (Letter of Barnabas 5). 80 AD Hermas 80 AD Hermas "The Son of God is older than all his creation, so that he became the Father's adviser in his creation. Therefore also he is ancient" (The Shepherd 12). 140 AD Aristides 140 AD Aristides "[Christians] are they who, above every people of the Earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16). 150 AD Justin Martyr 150 AD Justin Martyr "The Father of the universe has a Son, who also being the first begotten Word of God, is even God." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 63) 150 AD Justin Martyr "Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts." (Dialogue with Trypho, ch, 36) 150 AD Justin Martyr "Moreover, in the diapsalm of the forty-sixth Psalm, reference is thus made to Christ: 'God went up with a shout, the Lord with the sound of a trumpet." (Dialogue with Trypho, ch 37) 150 AD Justin Martyr quotes Hebrews 1:8 to prove the Deity of Christ. "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever." (Dialogue with Trypho, ch 56) 150 AD Justin Martyr "Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Christ] is witnessed to by Him who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ." – Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 63. 150 AD Justin Martyr in Chap. LXVI. He (Justin) Proves From Isaiah That God Was Born From A Virgin. (Chapter Title, Chap. LXVI) 150 AD Justin Martyr "And Trypho said, "You endeavor to prove an incredible and well-nigh impossible thing;[namely], that God endured to be born and become man…some Scriptures which we mention, and which expressly prove that Christ was to suffer, to be worshipped, and [to be called] God, and which I have already recited to you, do refer indeed to Christ." (Dialogue with Trypho, ch 68) 150 AD Justin Martyr "But if you knew, Trypho," continued I, "who He is that is called at one time the Angel of great counsel, and a Man by Ezekiel, and like the Son of man by Daniel, and a Child by Isaiah, and Christ and God to be worshipped by David, and Christ and a Stone by many, and Wisdom by Solomon, and Joseph and Judah and a Star by Moses, and the East by Zechariah, and the Suffering One and Jacob and Israel by Isaiah again, and a Rod, and Flower, and Corner Stone, and Son of God, you would not have blasphemed Him who has now come, and been born, and suffered, and ascended to heaven; who shall also come again, and then your twelve tribes shall mourn. For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God. For Moses says somewhere in Exodus the following: `The Lord spake to Moses, and said to him, I am the Lord, and I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, being their God; and my name I revealed not to them, and I established my covenant with them.' And thus again he says, `A man wrestled with Jacob,' and asserts it was God; narrating that Jacob said, `I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.'" (Dialogue of Justin with Trypho, A Jew, Chap. CXXVI [See also The First Apology of Justin, Chap. XIII; XXII; LXIII; Dialogue of Justin with Trypho, A Jew, Chap. XXXVI; XLVIII; LVI; LIX; LXI; C; CV; CXXV; CXXVIII) [Trypho to Justin] "…you say that this Christ existed as God before the ages, and that He submitted to be born and become man" – Dialogue with Trypho, ch.48. 150 AD Justin Martyr "We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God Himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the Mystery which lies therein" (First Apology 13:5-6). 150 A D Justin Martyr "Jesus Christ is the only proper Son who has been begotten by God, being His Word and first-begotten, and power; and, becoming man according to His will, He taught us these things for the conversion and restoration of the human race" (First Apology 23). 150 AD Justin Martyr "But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 6) Notice what else Justin say: "Worship God alone." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 16) "Whence to God alone we render worship." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 17) 150 AD Justin Martyr "God begot before all creatures a Beginning, who was a certain rational power from himself and whom the Holy Spirit calls . . . sometimes the Son, . . . sometimes Lord and Word … We see things happen similarly among ourselves, for whenever we utter some word, we beget a word, yet not by any cutting off, which would diminish the word in us when we utter it. We see a similar occurrence when one fire enkindles another. It is not diminished through the enkindling of the other, but remains as it was" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 61). 150 AD Justin Martyr "God speaks in the creation of man with the very same design, in the following words: 'Let us make man after our image and likeness' . . . I shall quote again the words narrated by Moses himself, from which we can indisputably learn that [God] conversed with someone numerically distinct from himself and also a rational being. . . . But this Offspring who was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with him" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 62). 150 AD Justin Martyr [Note: Justin never says Jesus is a created angel. Justin never refers to Jesus as an angel before creation, although JW’s will falsely affirm such from the text below. Justin, however, does refer to Jesus as the "angel of the Lord" after creation in various appearances to man. Many but not all Trinitarians would have no problem affirming, along side of Justin, that Jesus as uncreated God, was referred to as the Angel of Jehovah.] "HOW GOD APPEARED TO MOSES. And all the Jews even now teach that the nameless God spake to Moses; whence the Spirit of prophecy, accusing them by Isaiah the prophet mentioned above, said "The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib; but Israel doth not know Me, and My people do not understand." And Jesus the Christ, because the Jews knew not what the Father was, and what the Son, in like manner accused them; and Himself said, "No one knoweth the Father, but the Son; nor the Son, but the Father, and they to whom the Son revealeth Him." Now the Word of God is His Son, as we have before said. And He is called Angel and Apostle; for He declares whatever we ought to know, and is sent forth to declare whatever is revealed; as our Lord Himself says, "He that heareth Me, heareth Him that sent Me." From the writings of Moses also this will be manifest; for thus it is written in them, "And the Angel of God spake to Moses, in a flame of fire out of the bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of thy fathers; go down into Egypt, and bring forth My people." And if you wish to learn what follows, you can do so from the same writings; for it is impossible to relate the whole here. But so much is written for the sake of proving that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God and His Apostle, being of old the Word, and appearing sometimes in the form of fire, and sometimes in the likeness of angels; but now, by the will of God, having become man for the human race, He endured all the sufferings which the devils instigated the senseless Jews to inflict upon Him; who, though they have it expressly affirmed in the writings of Moses, "And the angel of God spake to Moses in a flame of fire in a bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob," yet maintain that He who said this was the Father and Creator of the universe. Whence also the Spirit of prophecy rebukes them, and says, "Israel doth not know Me, my people have not understood Me." And again, Jesus, as we have already shown, while He was with them, said, "No one knoweth the Father, but the Son; nor the Son but the Father, and those to whom the Son will reveal Him." The Jews, accordingly, being throughout of opinion that it was the Father of the universe who spake to Moses, though He who spake to him was indeed the Son of God, who is called both Angel and Apostle, are justly charged, both by the Spirit of prophecy and by Christ Himself, with knowing neither the Father nor the Son. For they who affirm that the Son is the Father, are proved neither to have become acquainted with the Father, nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin, according to the counsel of the Father, for the salvation of those who believe on Him, He endured both to be set at nought and to suffer, that by dying and rising again He might conquer death. And that which was said out of the bush to Moses, "I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and the God of your fathers," this signified that they, even though dead, are let in existence, and are men belonging to Christ Himself. For they were the first of all men to busy themselves in the search after God; Abraham being the father of Isaac, and Isaac of Jacob, as Moses wrote." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 63) 150 AD Justin Martyr "It is not on this ground solely," I said, "that it must be admitted absolutely that some other one is called Lord by the Holy Spirit besides Him who is considered Maker of all things; not solely [for what is said] by Moses, but also [for what is said] by David. For there is written by him: ‘The Lord says to my Lord, Sit on My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool,’ as I have already quoted. And again, in other words: ‘Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever." (Dialog of Justin with Trypho, a Jew, ch 56) 150 AD Justin Martyr "Then I replied, "Reverting to the Scriptures, I shall endeavor to persuade you, that He who is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things, — numerically, I mean, not [distinct] in will. For I affirm that He has never at any time done anything which He who made the world — above whom there is no other God — has not wished Him both to do and to engage Himself with." (Dialog of Justin with Trypho, a Jew, ch 56) 150 AD Justin Martyr "… even so here, the Scripture, in announcing that the Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses, and in afterwards declaring him to be Lord and God, speaks of the same One, whom it declares by the many testimonies already quoted to be minister to God, who is above the world, above whom there is no other [God]." (Dialog of Justin with Trypho, a Jew, ch 60) 150 AD Justin Martyr "I shall give you another testimony, my friends," said I, "from the Scriptures, that God begat before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father’s will, and since He was begotten of the Fat her by an act of will; just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word; yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word [which remains] in us, when we give it out: and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter, …" (Dialog of Justin with Trypho, a Jew, ch 60) 150 AD Polycarp of Smyrna 150 AD Polycarp of Smyrna "I praise you for all things, I bless you, I glorify you, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, with whom, to you and the Holy Spirit, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 14). 160 AD Mathetes 160 AD Mathetes "[The Father] sent the Word that he might be manifested to the world . . . This is he who was from the beginning, who appeared as if new, and was found old . . . This is he who, being from everlasting, is today called the Son" (Letter to Diognetus 11). 170 AD Tatian the Syrian 170 AD Tatian the Syrian "We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21). 177 AD Athenagoras 177 AD Athenagoras "The Son of God is the Word of the Father in thought and actuality. By him and through him all things were made, the Father and the Son being one. Since the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son by the unity and power of the Spirit, the Mind and Word of the Father is the Son of God. And if, in your exceedingly great wisdom, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by `the Son,' I will tell you briefly: He is the first- begotten of the Father, not as having been produced, for from the beginning God had the Word in himself, God being eternal mind and eternally rational, but as coming forth to be the model and energizing force of all material things" (Plea for the Christians 10:2-4). 177 AD Melito of Sardis 177 AD Melito of Sardis "It is no way necessary in dealing with persons of intelligence to adduce the actions of Christ after his baptism as proof that his soul and his body, his human nature, were like ours, real and not phantasmal. The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages" (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai's The Guide 13). 180 AD Theophilus of Antioch 180 AD Theophilus of Antioch Chapter XV. – Of the Fourth Day. "On the fourth day the luminaries were made; because God, who possesses foreknowledge, knew the follies of the vain philosophers, that they were going to say, that the things which grow on the earth are produced from the heavenly bodies, so as to exclude God. In order, therefore, that the truth might be obvious, the plants and seeds were produced prior to the heavenly bodies, for what is posterior cannot produce that which is prior. And these contain the pattern and type of a great mystery. For the sun is a type of God, and the moon of man. And as the sun far surpasses the moon in power and glory, so far does God surpass man. And as the sun remains ever full, never becoming less, so does God always abide perfect, being full of all power, and understanding, and wisdom, and immortality, and all good. But the moon wanes monthly, and in a manner dies, being a type of man; then it is born again, and is crescent, for a pattern of the future resurrection. In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity,. of God, and His Word, and His wisdom." [Triavdo" The earliest use of this word "Trinity." It seems to have been used by this writer in his lost works, also; and, as a learned friends suggests, the use he makes of it is familiar. He does not lug it in as something novel: "types of the Trinity," he says, illustrating an accepted word, not introducing a new one.] "And the fourth is the type of man, who needs light, that so there may be God, the Word, wisdom, man. Wherefore also on the fourth day the lights were made. The disposition of the stars, too, contains a type of the arrangement and order of the righteous and pious, and of those who keep the law and commandments of God. For the brilliant and bright stars are an imitation of the prophets, and therefore they remain fixed, not declining, nor passing from place to place. And those which hold the second place in brightness, are types of the people of the righteous. And those, again, which change their position, and flee from place to place, which also are cared planets, they too are a type of the men who have wandered from God, abandoning His law and commandments." (180 AD, Theophilus of Antioch Chapter XV. – Of the Fourth Day, To Autolycus 2:15) 180 AD Irenaeus 180 AD Irenaeus "…so that He indeed who made all things can alone, together with His Word, properly be termed God and Lord: but the things which have been made cannot have this term applied to them, neither should they justly assume that appellation which belongs to the Creator." – Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 8, section 3. 180 AD Irenaeus "But the Son, eternally co-existing with the Father, from of old, yea, from the beginning, always reveals the Father to Angels, Archangels, Powers, Virtues…" (Against Heresies, Book II, ch. 30, section 9) 180 AD Irenaeus "Christ Jesus is our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King." (Against Heresies, Book I, ch. 10, section 1) 180 AD Irenaeus "For I have shown from the scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man. (Irenaeus Against Heresies, chapter xix.2) 180 AD Irenaeus "For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the Earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and Earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who announced through the prophets the dispensations and the comings, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the Resurrection from the dead, and the bodily Ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and his coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to re-establish all things; and the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on Earth and under the earth . . . " (Against Heresies 1:10:1). 180 AD Irenaeus "[The Gnostics] transfer the generation of the uttered word of men to the eternal Word of God, attributing to him a beginning of utterance and a coming into being . . . In what manner, then, would the word of God–indeed, the great God himself, since he is the Word–differ from the word of men?" (Against Heresies 2:13:8). 180 AD Irenaeus "Nevertheless, what cannot be said of anyone else who ever lived, that he is himself in his own right God and Lord . . . may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth" (Against Heresies, 3:19:1). 180 AD Irenaeus "It was not angels, therefore, who made us, nor who formed us, neither had angels power to make an image of God, nor any one else, except the Word of the Lord, nor any Power remotely distant from the Father of all things. For God did not stand in need of these [beings], in order to the accomplishing of what He had Himself determined with Himself beforehand should be done, as if He did not possess His own hands. For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, "Let Us make man after Our image and likeness; " [Gen. 1:26]" (Against Heresies 4:20:1). 180 AD Irenaeus [Quoting John 1:1] "’…and the Word was God,’ of course, for that which is begotten of God is God." (Against Heresies, Book I, ch. 8, section 5) 180 AD Irenaeus "And again when the Son speaks to Moses, He says, ‘I am come down to deliver this people,’ (Exodus 3:8 – the burning bush). For it is He who descended and ascended for the salvation of men." (Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 6, section 2) 180 AD Irenaeus "Proofs From The Apostolic Writings, That Jesus Christ Was One And The Same, The Only Begotten Son Of God, Perfect God And Perfect Man." (Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 16, Chapter Title) 180 AD Irenaeus [in reference to Jesus] "For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself,…Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man." (Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 19, section 2) 180 AD Irenaeus "God, then, was made man, and the Lord did Himself save us, giving us the token of the Virgin." (Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 21, section 1) 180 AD Irenaeus "Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spake to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers." (Against Heresies, Book IV, ch. 5, section 2) 180 AD Irenaeus "And for this reason all spake with Christ when He was present [upon earth], and they named Him God." (Against Heresies, Book IV, ch.6, section 6) 180 AD Irenaeus "God formed man…it was not angels, therefore, who made us…neither had angels power to make an image of God." (Against Heresies, Book IV, ch. 20, section 1) 180 AD Irenaeus "Wherefore the prophets, receiving the prophetic gift from the same Word, announced His advent according to the flesh, by which the blending and communion of God and man took place according to the good pleasure of the Father, the Word of God foretelling from the beginning that God should be seen by men, and hold converse with them upon earth." (Against Heresies, Book IV, ch. 20, section 4) 180 AD Irenaeus "The Word, that is, the Son, was always with the Father." (Against Heresies, Book IV, ch. 20, section 3) 180 AD Irenaeus "Christ Jesus, the Son of God, because of His surpassing love for His creation, condescended to be born of the virgin." (Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 4, section 2) 180 AD Irenaeus "Therefore neither would the Lord, nor the Holy Spirit, nor the apostles, have ever named as God, definitely and absolutely, him who was not God, unless he were truly God; nor would they have named any one in his own person Lord, except God the Father ruling over all, and His Son who has received dominion from His Father over all creation, as this passage has it: "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit Thou at my right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool." Here the [Scripture] represents to us the Father addressing the Son; He who gave Him the inheritance of the heathen, and subjected to Him all His enemies. Since, therefore, the Father is truly Lord, and the Son truly Lord, the Holy Spirit has fitly designated them by the title of Lord. And again, referring to the destruction of the Sodomites, the Scripture says, "Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah fire and brimstone from the LORD out of heaven." For it here points out that the Son, who had also been talking with Abraham, had received power to judge the Sodomites for their wickedness. And this [text following] does declare the same truth: "Thy throne, O God; is for ever and ever; the scepter of Thy kingdom is a right scepter. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity: therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee." For the Spirit designates both [of them] by the name, of God — both Him who is anointed as Son, and Him who does anoint, that is, the Father." (Book 3, ch 6) 190 AD Clement Of Alexandria 190 AD Clement Of Alexandria [note: Clement NEVER calls Jesus a creature.] "There was then, a Word importing an unbeginning eternity; as also the Word itself, that is, the Son of God, who being, by equality of substance, one with the Father, is eternal and uncreated." (Fragments, Part I, section III) "that so great a work was accomplished in so brief a space by the Lord, who, though despised as to appearance, was in reality adored, the expiator of sin, the Saviour, the clement, the Divine Word, He that is truly most manifest Deity, He that is made equal to the Lord of the universe; because He was His Son, and the Word was in God, not disbelieved in by all when He was first preached, nor altogether unknown when, assuming the character of man, and fashioning Himself in flesh, He enacted the drama of human salvation: for He was a true champion and a fellow-champion with [ie. God among creatures, not that Jesus is classed as a creature] the creature." (Exhortations, Chap 10) 190 AD Clement Of Alexandria "I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father." (Stromata, Book V, ch. 14) 190 AD Clement Of Alexandria "When [John] says: 'What was from the beginning [1 John 1:1],' he touches upon the generation without beginning of the Son, who is co-equal with the Father. 'Was,' therefore, is indicative of an eternity without a beginning, just as the Word Himself, that is the Son, being one with the Father in regard to equality of substance, is eternal and uncreated. That the word always existed is signified by the saying: 'In the beginning was the Word' [John 1:1]." (fragment in Eusebius History, Bk 6 Ch 14; Jurgens, p. 188) 190 AD Clement Of Alexandria 'For both are one — that is, God. For He has said, "In the beginning the Word was in God, and the Word was God." (The Instructor, Book 1, ch 8) 190 AD Clement of Alexandria "Despised as to appearance but in reality adored, [Jesus is] the Expiator, the Savior, the Soother, the Divine Word, he that is quite evidently true God, he that is put on a level with the Lord of the universe because he was his Son." (Exhortation to the Greeks, 10:110:1). 190 AD Clement of Alexandria "The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning, for lie was in God, and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things" (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1). 190 AD Clement Of Alexandria "Now, O you, my children, our Instructor is like His Father God, whose son He is, sinless, blameless, and with a soul devoid of passion; God in the form of m an, stainless, the minister of His Father’s will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father’s right hand, and with the form of God is God." (Instructor, Book I, ch. 2) 190 AD Clement Of Alexandria "His Son Jesus, the Word of God, is our Instructor…. He is God and Creator." (Instructor, Book I, ch. 11) 190 AD Clement Of Alexandria "This is the New Song, the manifestation of the Word that was in the beginning, and before the beginning. The Savior, who existed before, has in recent days appeared. He, who is in Him that truly is, has appeared; for the Word, who "was with God," and by whom all things were created, has appeared as our Teacher. The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher; that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends." (Exhortation To The Heathen, ch 2) 190 AD Clement Of Alexandria "This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man" (Exhortation To The Heathen, ch 2) 190 AD Clement Of Alexandria "For it was not without divine care that so great a work was accomplished in so brief a space by the Lord, who, though despised as to appearance, was in reality adored, the expiator of sin, the Savior, the clement, the Divine Word, He that is truly most manifest Deity, He that is made [made = appointed not created, ie. made king after resurrection.] equal to the Lord of the universe; because He was His Son, and the Word was in God, not disbelieved in by all when He was first preached, nor altogether unknown when, assuming the character of man, and fashioning Himself in flesh" (Exhortation To The Heathen, ch 10) 190 AD Clement Of Alexandria "Now, O you, my children, our Instructor is like His Father God, whose son He is, sinless, blameless, and with a soul devoid of passion; God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Father’s will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father’s right hand, and with the form of God is God." (The Instructor, Book 1, ch 2) 200 AD Tertullian 200 AD Tertullian "Never did any angel descend for the purpose of being crucified, of tasting death, and of rising again from the dead." (The Flesh of Christ, ch 6) 200 AD Tertullian "All the Scriptures give clear proof of the Trinity, and it is from these that our principle is deduced…the distinction of the Trinity is quite clearly displayed." (Against Praxeas, ch 11) 200 AD Tertullian "The origins of both his substances display him as man and as God: from the one, born, and from the other, not born" (The Flesh of Christ, 5:6-7). 200 AD Tertullian "[God speaks in the plural ‘Let us make man in our image’] because already there was attached to Him his Son, a second person, his own Word, and a third, the Spirit in the Word….one substance in three coherent persons. He was at once the Father, the Son, and the Spirit." (Against Praxeas, ch 12) 200 AD Tertullian "Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another. These Three are, one essence, not one Person, as it is said, 'I and my Father are One' [John 10:30], in respect of unity of Being not singularity of number" (Against Praxeas, 25) 200 AD Tertullian "As if in this way also one were not All, in that All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons — the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." (Against Praxeas, by Tertullian) 200 AD Tertullian "So too, that which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God; and the two are one…. In his birth he is God and man united." (Apology, ch 21) 200 AD Tertullian "There is one only God, but under the following dispensation, or oikonomia, as it is called, that this one only God has also a Son, His Word, who proceeded from Himself, by whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made. Him we believe to have been sent by the Father into the Virgin, and to have been born of her — being both Man and God, the Son of Man and the Son of God, and to have been called by the name of Jesus Christ; we believe Him to have suffered, died, and been buried, according to the Scriptures, and, after He had been raised again by the Father and taken back to heaven, to be sitting at the right hand of the Father, and that He will come to judge the quick and the dead; who sent also from heaven from the Father, according to His own promise, the Holy Ghost, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father, and in the Son, and in the Holy Ghost. That this rule of faith has come down to us from the beginning of the gospel, even before any of the older heretics." (Against Praxeas, ch 2) 200 AD Tertullian "That there are two Gods and two Lords, however, is a statement which we will never allow to issue from our mouth; not as if the Father and the Son were not God, nor the Spirit God, and each of them God; but formerly two were spoken of as Gods and two as Lords, so that when Christ would come, he might both be acknowledged as God and be called Lord, because he is the Son of him who is both God and Lord" (Against Praxeas 13:6) 200 AD Tertullian "The Spirit is God, and the Word is God, because proceeding from God, but yet is not actually the very same as He from whom He proceeds.." (Against Praxeas, ch 26) 200 AD Tertullian "For He could not have been the Father previous to the Son, nor a judge previous to sin" (Against Hermogones, Ch 3) 200 AD Tertullian "He will be God, and the Word – the Son of God. We see plainly the twofold state, which is not confounded, but conjoined in One Person – Jesus, God and Man.." (Against Praxeas, ch 27) 200 AD Tertullian "God alone is without sin. The only man who is without sin is Christ; for Christ is also God" (The Soul 41:3) 200 AD Tertullian "We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . . We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the Sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit. . . . this rule of faith has been present since the beginning of the Gospel, before even the earlier heretics" … "And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the Three are the Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in Being, but in form; not in power, but in kind; of one Being, however, and one condition and one power, because he is one God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Against Praxeas 2). 200 AD Tertullian "While keeping to this demurrer always, there must, nevertheless, be place for reviewing for the sake of the instruction and protection of various persons. Otherwise it might seem that each perverse opinion is not examined but simply prejudged and condemned. This is especially so in the case of the present heresy [Sabellianism], which considers itself to have the pure truth when it supposes that one cannot believe in the one only God in any way other than by saying that Father, Son, and Spirit are the selfsame person. As if one were not all . . . through the unity of substance" (Against Praxeas 2:3-4) 200 AD Tertullian "Keep always in mind the rule of faith which I profess and by which I bear witness that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and then you will understand what is meant by it. Observe now that I say the Father is other [distinct], the Son is other, and the Spirit is other. This statement is wrongly understood by every uneducated or perversely disposed individual, as if it meant diversity and implied by that diversity a separation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" (Against Praxeas, 9) 200 AD Tertullian "[W]hen God says, 'Let there be light' [Gen. 1:3], this is the perfect nativity of the Word, while he is proceeding from God. . . . Thus, the Father makes him equal to himself, and the Son, by proceeding from him, was made the first-begotten, since he was begotten before all things, and the only-begotten, because he alone was begotten of God, in a manner peculiar to himself, from the womb of his own heart, to which even the Father himself gives witness: 'My heart has poured forth my finest Word' [Ps. 45:1Against Praxeas 7:1). 200 AD Tertullian "… it is not by division that He is different, but by distinction; because the Father is not the same as the Son, since they differ one from the other in the mode of their being. For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as He Himself acknowledges: "My Father is greater than I." In the Psalm His inferiority is described as being "a little lower than the angels." Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son, inasmuch as He who begets is one, and He who is begotten is another; He, too, who sends is one, and He who is sent is another" (Against Praxeas, by Tertullian) 200 AD Tertullian [Just as JW’s attribute words to Tertullian that he never said. We draw your attention to the fact that the quoted words (from "Should you believe in the trinity", Watchtower booklet), "There was a time when the Son was not" are not Tertullian’s, but those of Bishop Kaye in his appendix section on Tertullian. (Bishop Kaye, Account of the Writings of Tertullian, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol 3, p 1181). Kaye, Tertullian, some Trinitarians and all Modalists teach that Jesus was eternally pre-existent as God, and that the title of "Son" was first applied to Jesus after his incarnation. Just as a man cannot be called a father, until after he has a son, so too Jesus cannot be called a Son until after he was physically born via incarnation. This is the gist of what Kaye is saying Tertullian taught. To support this, notice this comment by Tertullian,] "For He could not have been the Father previous to the Son, nor a judge previous to sin" (Against Hermogones, Ch 3) see next quote: 200 AD Tertullian [Interesting that Tertullian being a modalist, not only says there was a time before the Son became the Son, so too a time before God was the Father] Because God is in like manner a Father, and He is also a Judge; but He has not always been Father and Judge, merely on the ground of His having always been God. For He could not have been the Father previous to the Son, nor a Judge previous to sin. There was, however, a time when neither sin existed with Him, nor the Son; the former of which was to constitute the Lord a Judge, and the latter a Father. In this way He was not Lord previous to those things of which He was to be the Lord. But He was only to become Lord at some future time: just as He became the Father by the Son, and a Judge by sin, so also did He become Lord by means of those things which He had made, in order that they might serve Him. (Tertullian, Against Hermogenes, chapter 3) 200 AD Tertullian "For before all things God was alone — being in Himself and for Himself universe, and space, and all things. Moreover, He was alone, because there was nothing external to Him but Himself. Yet even not then was He alone; for He had with Him that which He possessed in Himself, that is to say, His own Reason. For God is rational, and Reason was first in Him; and so all things were from Himself. This Reason is His own Thought (or Consciousness) which the Greeks call , by which term we also designate Word or Discourse and therefore it is now usual with our people, owing to the mere simple interpretation of the term, to say that the Word was in the beginning with God;" (Against Praxeas, by Tertullian) 200 AD Hippolytus 200 AD Hippolytus "For who will not say that there is one God? Yet he will not on that account deny the economy (i.e., the number and disposition of persons in the Trinity)." (Against The Heresy Of One Noetus) 200 AD Hippolytus "As far as regards the power, therefore, God is one. But as far as regards the economy there is a threefold manifestation, as shall be proved afterwards when we give account of the true doctrine" (Against The Heresy Of One Noetus) 200 AD Hippolytus "Let us look next at the apostle's word: "Whose are the fathers, of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever."(13) This word declares the mystery of the truth rightly and clearly. He who is over all is God; for thus He speaks boldly, "All things are delivered unto me of my Father."(14) He who is over all, God blessed, has been born; and having been made man, He is (yet) God for ever. For to this effect John also has said, "Which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."(15) And well has he [John] named Christ the Almighty. For in this he has said only what Christ testifies of Himself. For Christ gave this testimony, and said, "All things are delivered unto me of my Father;"(16) and Christ rules all things, and has been appointed" (Against The Heresy Of One Noetus 6) 200 AD Hippolytus "For Christ is the God above all, and He has arranged to wash away sin from human beings,(7) rendering regenerate the old man. And God called man His likeness from the beginning, and has evinced in a figure His love towards thee. And provided thou obeyest His solemn injunctions, and becomest a faithful follower of Him who is good, thou shall resemble Him, inasmuch as thou shall have honour conferred upon thee by Him. For the Deity, (by condescension,) does not diminish ought of the divinity of His divine(8) perfection; having made thee even God unto His glory" (Elucidations, Ch. 30, Author's Concluding Address) 200 AD Hippolytus "She hath mingled her wine" in the bowl, by which is meant, that the Saviour, uniting his Godhead, like pure wine, with the flesh in the Virgin, was born of her at once God and man without confusion of the one in the other. "And she hath furnished her table:" that denotes the promised knowledge of the Holy Trinity." (Hippolytus on Prov 9:1, fragment, "Wisdom hath builded her house.") 200 AD Hippolytus "But there is also that which is more honourable than all–the fact that Christ, the Maker of all, came down as the rain, and was known as a spring, and diffused Himself as a river, and was baptized in the Jordan." (Discourse On The Holy Theophany) 200 AD Hippolytus [Applying Rev 1:8 to Christ] "He who is over all, God blessed, has been born, and having been made man. He is God forever. For to this effect John also has said, 'Which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.' And well has he named Christ the Almighty." (Against Noetus, Part 6) 200 AD Hippolytus "Beside Him there was nothing; but He [God], while existing alone, yet existed in plurality." (Against Noetus, Part 10) 200 AD Hippolytus "Let us believe th en, dear brethren, according to the tradition of the apostles, that God the Word came down from heaven,… He now, coming forth into the world, was manifested as God in a body, coming forth too as a perfect man.." (Against Noetus, Part 17) 200 AD Hippolytus "The Logos is God, being the substance of God." (Refutation of all Heresies, Book X, ch 29) 200 AD Hippolytus "For Christ is the God above all…" (Refutation of all Heresies, Book X, ch 30) 200 AD Hippolytus "The Word alone of this God is from God himself, wherefore also the Word is God, being the Being of God. Now the world was made from nothing, wherefore it is not God" (Refutation of All Heresies 10:29). 200 AD Hippolytus "Therefore, this sole and universal God, by reflecting, first brought forth the Word–not a word as in speech, but as a mental word, the reason for everything. . . . The Word was the cause of those things which came into existence, carrying out in himself the will of him by whom he was begotten. . . . Only [God's] Word is from himself and is therefore also God, becoming the substance of God" … "For Christ is the God over all, who has arranged to wash away sin from mankind, rendering the old man new" (Refutation of All Heresies 10:33,34). 200 AD Hippolytus "Thus, after the death of Zephyrinus, supposing that he had obtained (the position) after which he so eagerly pursued, he [Callistus] excommunicated Sabellius, as not entertaining orthodox opinions" (Refutation of All Heresies 9:7). 200 AD Hippolytus "Against The Heresy Of One Noetus: 1. Some others are secretly introducing another doctrine, who have become disciples of one Noetus, who was a native of Smyrna, (and) lived not very long ago. This person was greatly puffed up and inflated with pride, being inspired by the conceit of a strange spirit. He alleged that Christ was the Father Himself, and that the Father Himself was born, and suffered, and died. Ye see what pride of heart and what a strange inflated spirit had insinuated themselves into him. Froth his other actions, then, the proof is already given us that he spoke not with a pure spirit; for he who blasphemes against the Holy Ghost is cast out from the holy inheritance. He alleged that he was himself Moses, and that Aaron was his brother. When the blessed presbyters heard this, they summoned him before the Church, and examined him. But he denied at first that he held such opinions. Afterwards, however, taking shelter among some, and having gathered round him some others who had embraced the same error, he wished thereafter to uphold his dogma openly as correct. And the blessed presbyters called him again before them, and examined him. But he stood out against them, saying, "What evil, then, am I doing in glorifying Christ?" And the presbyters replied to him, "We too know in truth one God; we know Christ; we know that the Son suffered even as He suffered, and died even as He died, and rose again on the third day, and is at the right hand of the Father, and cometh to judge the living and the dead. And these things which we have learned we allege." Then, after examining him, they expelled him from the Church. And he was carried to such a pitch of pride, that he established a school. 2. Now they [Noetus] seek to exhibit the foundation for their dogma by citing the word in the law, "I am the God of your fathers: ye shall have no other gods beside me;" and again in another passage, "I am the first," He saith, "and the last; and beside me there is none other." Thus they say they prove that God is one. And then they answer in this manner: "If therefore I acknowledge Christ to be God, He is the Father Himself, if He is indeed God; and Christ suffered, being Himself God; and consequently the Father suffered, for He was the Father Himself." But the case stands not thus; for the Scriptures do not set forth the matter in this manner. But they make use also of other testimonies, and say, Thus it is written: "This is our God, and there shall none other be accounted of in comparison of Him. He hath found out all the way of knowledge, and hath given it unto Jacob His servant (son), and to Israel His beloved. Afterward did He show Himself upon earth, and conversed with men." You see, then, he says, that this is God, who is the only One, and who afterwards did show Himself, and con-versed with men." And in another place he says, "Egypt hath laboured; and the merchandise of Ethiopia and the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, (and they shall be slaves to thee); and they shall come after thee bound with manacles, and they shall fall down unto thee, because God is in thee; and they shall make supplication unto thee: and there is no God beside thee. For Thou art God, and we knew not; God of Israel, the Saviour." Do you see, he says, how the Scriptures proclaim one God? And as this is clearly exhibited, and these passages are testimonies to it, I am under necessity, he says, since one is acknowledged, to make this One the subject of suffering. For Christ was God, and suffered on account of us, being Himself the Father, that He might be able also to save us. And we cannot express ourselves otherwise, he says; for the apostle also acknowledges one God, when he says, "Whose are the fathers, (and) of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever." … "8. In this way, then, they choose to set forth these things, and they make use only of one class of passages; just in the same one-sided manner that Theodotus employed when he sought to prove that Christ was a mere man. But neither has the one party nor the other understood the matter rightly, as the Scriptures themselves confute their senselessness, and attest the truth. See, brethren, what a rash and audacious dogma they have introduced, when they say without shame, the Father is Himself Christ, Himself the Son, Himself was born, Himself suffered, Himself raised Himself. But it is not so. The Scriptures speak what is right; but Noetus is of a different mind from them. Yet, though Noetus does not understand the truth, the Scriptures are not at once to be repudiated. For who will not say that there is one God? Yet he will not on that account deny the economy (i.e., the number and disposition of persons in the Trinity). The proper way, therefore, to deal with the question is first of all to refute the interpretation put upon these passages by these men, and then to explain their real meaning. For it is right, in the first place, to expound the truth that the Father is one God, "of whom is every family," "by whom are all things, of whom are all things, and we in Him." (Against The Heresy Of One Noetus) 200 AD Hippolytus "Against The Heresy Of One Noetus: Many other passages, or rather all of them, attest the truth. A man, therefore, even though he will it not, is compelled to acknowledge God the Father Almighty, and Christ Jesus the Son of God, who, being God, became man, to whom also the Father made all things subject, Himself excepted, and the Holy Spirit; and that these, therefore, are three. But if he desires to learn how it is shown still that there is one God, let him know that His power is one. As far as regards the power, therefore, God is one. But as far as regards the economy there is a threefold manifestation, as shall be proved afterwards when we give account of the true doctrine. In these things, however, which are thus set forth by us, we are at one. For there is one God in whom we must believe, but unoriginated, impassible, immortal, doing all things as He wills, in the way He wills, and when He wills. What, then, will this Noetus, who knows nothing of the truth, dare to say to these things? And now, as Noetus has been confuted, let us turn to the exhibition of the truth itself, that we may establish the truth, against which all these mighty heresies have arisen without being able to state anything to the purpose. (Against The Heresy Of One No etus) 200 AD Hippolytus "A man, therefore, even though he will it not, is compelled to acknowledge God the Father Almighty, and Christ Jesus the Son of God, who, being God, became man, to whom also the Father made all things subject, Himself excepted, and the Holy Spirit; and that these, therefore, are three. But if he desires to learn how it is shown still that there is one God, let him know that His power is one. As far as regards the power, therefore, God is one. But as far as regards the economy there is a threefold manifestation, as shall be proved afterwards when we give account of the true doctrine. In these things, however, which are thus set forth by us, we are at one. For there is one God in whom we must believe, but unoriginated, impassible, immortal, doing all things as He wills, in the way He wills, and when He wills." (Against The Heresy Of One Noetus) 200 AD Hippolytus "As far as regards the power, therefore, God is one. But as far as regards the economy there is a threefold manifestation, as shall be proved afterwards when we give account of the true doctrine" (Against The Heresy Of One Noetus) 225 AD Origen 225 AD Origen "And that you may understand that the omnipotence of Father and Son is one and the same, as God and the Lord are one and the same with the Father, listen to the manner in which John speaks in the Apocalypse: "Thus saith the Lord God, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."(3) For who else was "He which is to come" than Christ? And as no one ought to be offended, seeing God is the Father, that the Saviour is also God; so also, since the Father is called omnipotent, no one ought to be offended that the Son of God is also cared omnipotent." (De Principis, On Christ, Book 1, Ch 2) 225 AD Origen "Nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification." (De Principis, Book I, ch. 3, section 7) 225 AD Origen "Saving baptism was not complete except by the authority of the most excellent Trinity of them all, i.e., by the naming of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." (De Principis, Book I, ch. 3, section 2) 225 AD Origen "The holy Apostles, in preaching the faith of Christ, treated with the utmost clarity of certain matters which they believed to be of absolute necessity to all believers…The specific points which are clearly handed down through the Apostolic preaching [are] these: First, that there is one God who created and arranged all things…Secondly, that Jesus Christ himself was born of the Father before all creatures…Although He was God, He took flesh, and having been made man, He remained what He was, God" (De Principis, Preface, sections 3 – 4) 225 AD Origen "For we do not hold that which the heretics imagine: that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existent substances, that is, from a substance outside Himself, so that there was a time when He did not exist." (De Principis, Book V, Summary, section 28) 225 AD Origen "We worship one God, the Father and the Son." (Against Celsus, Book VIII, section 12) 225 AD Origen "The specific points which are clearly handed down through the apostolic preaching are these: First, that there is one God who created and arranged all things, and who, when nothing existed, called all things into existence, and that in the final period this God, just as he had promised beforehand through the prophets, sent the Lord Jesus Christ. Secondly, that Jesus Christ himself, who came, was born of the father before all creatures; and after he had ministered to the father in the creation of all things, for through him all things were made" … "Although he was God, he took flesh; and having been made man, he remained what he was. God" (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:0:4). 225 AD Origen "For we do not hold that which the heretics imagine: that some part of the Being of God was converted into the Son, or that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existent substances, that is, from a Being outside himself, so that there were a time when he [the Son] did not exist" … "No, rejecting every suggestion of corporeality, we hold that the Word and the Wisdom was begotten out of the invisible and incorporeal God, without anything corporal being acted upon . . . the expression which we employ, however that there was never a time when he did not exist is to be taken with a certain allowance. For these very words `when' and `never' are terms of temporal significance, while whatever is said of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, is to be understood as transcending all time, all ages, and all eternity" … "For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds every sense in which not only temporal but even eternal may be understood. It is all other things, indeed, which are outside the Trinity, which are to be measured by time and ages" (The Fundamental Doctrines 4:4:1). 225 AD Origen "While we have been sketching the proof of the divinity of Jesus, we have made use of the prophetic statements concerning him, and have at the same time demonstrated that the writings which prophesied about him are divinely inspired" (The Fundamental Doctrines, 4:1:6). 225 AD Origen "So also Wisdom, since he proceeds from God, is generated from the very substance of God" (Commentary on Hebrews). 225 AD Origen "In what follows, some may imagine that he says something plausible against us. "If," says he, "these people worshipped one God alone, and no other, they would perhaps have some valid argument against the worship of others. But they pay excessive reverence to one who has but lately appeared among men, and they think it no offence against God if they worship also His servant." To this we reply, that if Celsus had known that saying," I and My Father are one," and the words used in prayer by the Son of God, "As Thou and I are one, he would not have supposed that we worship any other besides Him who is the Supreme God. "For," says He, "My Father is in Me, and I in Him." And if any should from these words be afraid of our going over to the side of those who deny that the Father and the Son are two persons, let him weigh that passage, "And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul," that he may understand the meaning of the saying, "I and My Father are one." We worship one God, the Father and the Son, therefore, as we have explained; and our argument against the worship of other gods still continues valid. And we do not "reverence beyond measure one who has but lately appeared," as though He did not exist before; for we believe Himself when He says, "Before Abraham was, I am." Again He says, "I am the truth; " and surely none of us is so simple as to suppose that truth did not exist before the time when Christ appeared. We worship, therefore, the Father of truth, and the Son, who is the truth; and these, while they are two, considered as persons or subsistences, are one in unity of thought, in harmony and in identity of will. So entirely are they one, that he who has seen the Son, "who is the brightness of God’s glory, and the express image of His person," has seen in Him who is the image, of God, God Himself." (Origen Against Celsus, book 8, chapter 12, 225 AD) 235 AD Novatian 235 AD Novatian "For Scripture as much announces Christ as also God, as it announces God Himself as man. It has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as moreover it has also described Christ the Lord to be God. Because it does not set forth Him to be the Son of God only, but also the Son of man; nor does it only say, the Son of man, but it has also been accustomed to speak of Him as the Son of God. So that being of both, He is both, les t if He should be one only, He could not be the other. For as nature itself has prescribed that he must be

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