- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote I might start another thread for that question – unless you want to. We could start at Genesis, and work through every prophecy of Jesus to see if the Father ever claimed him to be God Himself. And then move on to the words of the Father in the NT.
Hi Mike
Feel free to start another thread.God bless
vjesnikQuote vjesnik, Read these scriptures, and you yourself decide what Jesus is according to the Father.
Hebrews 1:7 And to the angels indeed he saith: He that maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But to the Son: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of justice is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And: Thou in the beginning, O Lord, didst found the earth: and the works of thy hands are the heavens.
11 They shall perish, but thou shalt continue: and they shall all grow old as a garment.
12 And as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: but thou art the selfsame, and thy years shall not fail.
peace and love in Jesus Christ
Charles
Hi Charles
Sorry I can't comment on all texts (my English isn't so good, it would probably take me a week to do that
).
So I will comment just one
9 Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
By definition to be equal to God, the God that is equal could not have God, unless they are both gods of each other; and we can not find any example of that in the bible. In the case that they are gods one to each other by definition they could not be true gods any more because to be true God means that you are above everyone and everything. So this text is a perfect answer to the question who Jesus is relation to the Father. However I do understand why some people could think that’s the case and i will try to explain that when i get some time.
Also note that Jesus was anointed by Father.
Dear brothers and sisters, true doctrine have to fit in all Bible not just parts of it.Let me finish with the words of our Lord and saviour: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (John 17:3)
God bless
vjesnikQuote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 06 2011,10:17) Hi Charles, Mark, and any other “Jesus is God” believer out there. How about a little “tit for tat” here? It seems that most of my time on HN is spent refuting the claims of the “Jesus is God” people. It seems that far less time is spent by them refuting the actual scriptures that make it clear Jesus is NOT God.
So I thought it only fair that as we're going through addressing YOUR points, you should also address ours.
Micah 5:4
And he will certainly stand and do shepherding in the strength of Jehovah, in the superiority of the name of Jehovah his God.Why does Jesus, as “God Himself”, have to shepherd the flock in the STRENGTH and NAME of Jehovah, his OWN god?
peace,
mike
Fair enough. Because his God is his literal father, and he is perfect and holy and God, he will have no God but his Father. The other half of himself. It doesn't mean he isn't worthy or hold the royal authority of God our Father. Like I said before, on earth he was not God the Father. But he was the only part of God given to us as savior and Lord, able to redeem us. What about the other scripture in Micah-
——————————————————————————–
Micah 7:14 Shepherd your people with your staff, the flock of your inheritance, which lives by itself in a forest, in fertile pasturelands. Let them feed in Bashan and Gilead as in days long ago.Micah is telling God the Father to sheperd his people, but in the scripture you gave it says that Jesus would do the sheparding. Jesus is the son with the Fathers authority because he is him in human form, exclusively made directly from God, with human requirements of humility and meekness. Since he was perfect he fulfilled them all. He is all in all to everyone, Father (all authority is handed over to him), son, and holy Spirit (he was born of the spirit). Peace-Mark
“God is not, nor has He ever been flesh.'- Mikeboll
Yes he has, and his name was Jesus, the word made flesh. The holy one of Israel.
Mark, I have a hard time understanding this Trinity.
My Mother explains it as we have a Body, Spirit, and Mind. She says therefore God has a Body Spirit and Mind. Man was made in Gods image?
But reading the Bible, I see Jesus as the Son. Not God the Father??
I just don't get it.
I should also add:
She says the flesh part of God was manifested in Jesus, Jesus as the flesh, while God as the Mind was in Heaven, I think she said??
Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 05 2011,18:56)
……..he will have no God but his Father.
But Mark, God Most High does not have a God of His own, right? If Jesus HAS a God, then he cannot BE God.Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 05 2011,18:56)
The other half of himself.
Is your son “the other half” of you? Do the two of you together make up one being?Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 05 2011,18:56)
It doesn't mean he isn't worthy or hold the royal authority of God our Father.
Correct, because Jesus DOES hold the royal authority of God. God has PLACED His Son in charge of His creation for the time being. Later, the Son OF God will hand the reigns of the Kingdom back to his own Father and God, so that God, (NOT Jesus), can be all in all.Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 05 2011,18:56)
Like I said before, on earth he was not God the Father.
Paul said, “yet for US, there is but ONE God, the Father”. Mark, are you not a part of the “US”? If Jesus is not God the Father, and God the Father is the ONLY God we are to have, then you are breaking the rules of scripture by having Jesus also as a God.Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 05 2011,18:56)
……..exclusively made directly from God…..
Yes. Just like everything in heaven and earth was made from God. Jesus is no exception. He was the one made first.Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 05 2011,18:56)
Since he was perfect he fulfilled them all.
He was actually MADE perfect THROUGH the suffering he endured on earth. (Heb 2:10)Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 05 2011,18:56)
…..(all authority is handed over to him)…..
By WHO? His own God, right?Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 05 2011,18:56)
Is anything impossible for God?
No. Is it impossible for God to have begotten a Son unto Himself who is NOT God, but the Son OF God?peace,
mikeQuote (mikeangel @ Oct. 05 2011,19:05) “God is not, nor has He ever been flesh.'- Mikeboll Yes he has, and his name was Jesus, the word made flesh. The holy one of Israel.
The “word made flesh” was not God Himself, but the Word OF God. The word “OF” shows a POSSESSION. The car OF Mike is not Mike himself, but a POSSESSION OF Mike. The Word OF God is not God Himself, but a POSSESSION OF God.It was a possession OF God who was made flesh, Mark. Not God Himself.
I do not understand it. I know that Jesus was one with the Father. More than one in spirit only. Otherwise he couldn't have said
Show Us the Father! – John 14:8-11
Philip said to Jesus, “Lord, show us the Father. That is all we need.”
Jesus answered, “Philip, I have been with you for a long time. So you should know me. The person that has seen me has seen the Father too.How could he say this if he wasn't the express human expression of God the Father? And How could he be anything but the same spirit because they are of the same? And How can he be with us until the end, and in Heaven at the same time? I do not understand it either, like I don't understand him being born to a virgin miraculously, but I do not have to Thank God. I just have to believe in him and his son,kinda the tag team of salvation who left me the consolation of thier spirit until Jesus returns and Rules as King.I can't wait……
Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 05 2011,19:05) “God is not, nor has He ever been flesh.'- Mikeboll Yes he has, and his name was Jesus, the word made flesh. The holy one of Israel.
Mark, God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.Why would your “flesh God” teach us that God is Spirit? Why would he count himself among those who worshipped our Spirit God? (John 4:22)
Is anything impossible for God? -Mark
No. Is it impossible for God to have begotten a Son unto Himself who is NOT God, but the Son OF GOD?-Mikeboll
Your answer seems contradictory or confusing. Yes or no please. Is anything impossible for God?
Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 05 2011,19:28) Jesus answered, “Philip, I have been with you for a long time.
Actually, Jesus said “I am with you for a long time”. But the English translators, knowing that the MEANING of the Greek was “I HAVE BEEN with you”, translate it accordingly.It is only in John 8:58 that these translators forget how to translate, and render a sentence that makes no sense in English: “Before Abraham existed, I HAVE BEEN” is the true MEANING, just like in John 14:9.
Food for thought.
Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 05 2011,19:35) Is anything impossible for God? -Mark No. Is it impossible for God to have begotten a Son unto Himself who is NOT God, but the Son OF GOD?-Mikeboll
Your answer seems contradictory or confusing. Yes or no please. Is anything impossible for God?
My answer is “NO”. And knowing that nothing is impossible for God, I asked you if begetting a Son who was NOT God, but the Son OF God was impossible for God.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 06 2011,12:35) Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 05 2011,19:05) “God is not, nor has He ever been flesh.'- Mikeboll Yes he has, and his name was Jesus, the word made flesh. The holy one of Israel.
Mark, God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.Why would your “flesh God” teach us that God is Spirit? Why would he count himself among those who worshipped our Spirit God? (John 4:22)
We have been here before. He worshipped his Father and was worshipped. You have broke your interpretation of translation down for me before so I won't go there. You say bowing or showing respect was not worship. It was ambinisense? But I believe that when he rose above the earth , those who saw that worshipped him, as did his diciples when he calmed the sea. I know you don't see it that way, but I understand he worshipped and was worshipped. “My Lord and My God!”- ThomasQuote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 06 2011,12:39) Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 05 2011,19:28) Jesus answered, “Philip, I have been with you for a long time.
Actually, Jesus said “I am with you for a long time”. But the English translators, knowing that the MEANING of the Greek was “I HAVE BEEN with you”, translate it accordingly.It is only in John 8:58 that these translators forget how to translate, and render a sentence that makes no sense in English: “Before Abraham existed, I HAVE BEEN” is the true MEANING, just like in John 14:9.
Food for thought.
What about the rest of it? Those who saw him have seen the Father?But Mark,
If the Apostles worshipped BOTH Jesus AND the One that Jesus himself worshipped, then wouldn't they be guilty of worshipping TWO Gods?
Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 05 2011,19:43) What about the rest of it? Those who saw him have seen the Father?
Do you claim that Jesus IS the Father?Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 05 2011,19:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 06 2011,12:35) Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 05 2011,19:05) “God is not, nor has He ever been flesh.'- Mikeboll Yes he has, and his name was Jesus, the word made flesh. The holy one of Israel.
Mark, God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.Why would your “flesh God” teach us that God is Spirit? Why would he count himself among those who worshipped our Spirit God? (John 4:22)
We have been here before.
My point here wasn't the “worship” thing anyway. My point was that God is SPIRIT, not FLESH. Does it make sense that a FLESH being who told us that God is SPIRIT would BE that God who is SPIRIT?Jesus didn't say “God is Spirit AND flesh”, right? And we know God is unchanging from scripture. If He is Spirit, like Jesus says, then He is ALWAYS Spirit.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
