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Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 17 2010,12:19) Hi Stuart, Order: A system of arrangement, a state of efficiency, a state of effective operation,
a general classification according to quality or standing.My expertise is in: Documenting anomalies in the AKJV Bible, illustrating an “Intelligent Design”,
which occurred over large time scales diminishing the look of mans deliberate manipulation!The design of these anomalies illustrate the orchestration of an intelligence NOT bound by time that can even be Labeled as GOD!
I offer to you the Very PROOF of God's existence; a true Agnostic would be interested in the documentation of conclusive PROOF,
while an Atheist would Not be interested in PROOF(only in discrediting such Proof) because their belief in NO God is then proven false!Your actions illustrate rather clearly which camp you belong to! That of the Atheist Camp! So why do you falsely call yourself an Agnostic?
I am both an agnostic, as you are, and an atheist because my interpretation of the evidence for you god (no evidence) is that there is no god. I don't know how you would interpret no evidence for god as evidence for god, but each to their own delusion!Have a look in your salt shaker. Every crystal, while containing some dislocations, is a virtually perfectly ordered arrangement of sodium and chloride ions, alternating positive and negative ions throughout the crystal lattice. That is about as ordered as anything could be, and yet we can explain the exact mechanism for the spontaneous appearance of that order without any reference to divine magic.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 13 2010,14:49) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 13 2010,10:16) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 10 2010,21:18) ccording to real fossil and DNA evidence, this is NOT the genealogy of the first people, because there never was a time of just a few humans.
Interesting comment. Did humans kind of explode on the scene? say 120 at the very beginning.
It was a whole population changing slowly over time that came to a point where they had the characteristics that people generally associate with the word human.It is a matter of opinion whether you say humans began 100,000 years ago, or 185,000 years ago or 250,000 years ago, or even 1,000,000 years ago. A case can be made for each of these times, depending on the similarity with modern humans you require for your definition of human.
It is a classification problem, related to the so called 'species problem' which you can read about here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_problem
If you start with a single breeding pair then the expected result in virtually every case would be extinction.
Stuart
Oh, OK, the whole population evolved at the same time with the same features? They all became mutants at the same time.The first creature that crawled out of a puddle and breathed air and survived on land, is a wrong hypothesis. Rather, it happened to a whole population. They all evolved to the point where they could breath when they crawled out of the puddle.
Am I reading you correctly?
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 17 2010,22:35) If you start with a single breeding pair then the expected result in virtually every case would be extinction.
So if you put a male and a female human on an isolated but bountiful island, then they would become extinct?Um, I think I have to disagree. Sure there is this thing about incest and the genetic risks involved for the proceeding generation, but extinction seems a bit of an over-reaction. Surely not all offspring would be genetically weak to the point of death.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 17 2010,22:35) Oh, OK, the whole population evolved at the same time with the same features? They all became mutants at the same time. The first creature that crawled out of a puddle and breathed air and survived on land, is a wrong hypothesis. Rather, it happened to a whole population. They all evolved to the point where they could breath when they crawled out of the puddle.
Am I reading you correctly?
Yes. But it was a series of mutations that spread through the population each from one starting point, it was not the same mutation appearing simultaneously in several individuals.Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 17 2010,22:45) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 17 2010,22:35) If you start with a single breeding pair then the expected result in virtually every case would be extinction.
So if you put a male and a female human on an isolated but bountiful island, then they would become extinct?Um, I think I have to disagree. Sure there is this thing about incest and the genetic risks involved for the proceeding generation, but extinction seems a bit of an over-reaction. Surely not all offspring would be genetically weak to the point of death.
The odds are that inbreeding would cause extinction in quite short order.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 17 2010,19:01) Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 17 2010,12:19) Hi Stuart, Order: A system of arrangement, a state of efficiency, a state of effective operation,
a general classification according to quality or standing.My expertise is in: Documenting anomalies in the AKJV Bible, illustrating an “Intelligent Design”,
which occurred over large time scales diminishing the look of mans deliberate manipulation!The design of these anomalies illustrate the orchestration of an intelligence NOT bound by time that can even be Labeled as GOD!
I offer to you the Very PROOF of God's existence; a true Agnostic would be interested in the documentation of conclusive PROOF,
while an Atheist would Not be interested in PROOF(only in discrediting such Proof) because their belief in NO God is then proven false!Your actions illustrate rather clearly which camp you belong to! That of the Atheist Camp! So why do you falsely call yourself an Agnostic?
I am both an agnostic, as you are, and an atheist because my interpretation of the evidence for you god (no evidence) is that there is no god. I don't know how you would interpret no evidence for god as evidence for god, but each to their own delusion!Have a look in your salt shaker. Every crystal, while containing some dislocations, is a virtually perfectly ordered arrangement of sodium and chloride ions, alternating positive and negative ions throughout the crystal lattice. That is about as ordered as anything could be, and yet we can explain the exact mechanism for the spontaneous appearance of that order without any reference to divine magic.
Stuart
Hi Stuart,Table salt is a very good example of order, because man has manipulated it's structure,
natural salts do not contained in the higher doses of iodine as found in table salt!Why do you falsely call me “Agnostic”, do you believe that nobody can have more understanding than you?
I illustrated for you a pattern orchestrated by God and you appear to merely scoff at it,
because you do not understand the complexities contained within the pattern!Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.Your evolved brain appears to be limited compared to my “Created” Brain.
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Stu @ Feb. 17 2010,18:52) While others have ideas about religious belief being a powerful means of achieving unity in a group, with all the survival advantages that brings, Richard Dawkins thinks that religious belief is a byproduct of very young children believing everything adults tell them, which is an adaptation that has obvious and overwhelming survival advantages. Stuart
Stu, while this statement may be the norm, it was not my reality. I was made to go to church as a child, but thought God was a myth by the time I was 10.
I was atheist until two short years ago (I'm 45, now).
I used to show people a card I carried with me that said, “The first step in believing in yourself is breaking the chains that bind Christian America to its alters. Your God is dying, and will continue to do so until it joins the ranks of other myths and fairy tales long since outgrown.”
I told people that God was a joke, and if there was a God that let all the pain and suffering in the world continue, then to hell with him.
Then I got to a point in my life where I was so desparate, I prayed, “God, I never believed in you, but if you are there I need your help.”
The help was immediate-like cupped hands picking me up out of the mire I was sinking into. I can't explain it any better.
I know God exists without a doubt. Not to wish bad on you, but I hope someday you'll get to be that desparate, so you can know the peace I now have.
Love and Peace,
MikeQuote (Stu @ Feb. 17 2010,18:48) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 17 2010,17:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 17 2010,14:40) kejonn, British astronomer Sir Fred Doyle, “Rather than accept the fantastically small probability of life having arisen through the blind forces of nature, it seemed better to suppose that the origin of life was a deliberate intellectual act.”
Professor Michael J. Behe, “Life on earth at its most fundamental level, in its most critical components, is the product of intelligent activity.”
Forget about the intricate way a human body and brain are designed; if it is just survival of the fittest, why do we have an appreciation for art and music and beautiful sunsets, etc.?
“Survival of the fittest” is a myth created by evolutionists it actually has nothing to do with the “Theory of Evolution” which is based upon the very generic idea of “biological viability” in other words what can survive will survive, not that it is trying to survive.
The phrase Survival of the Fittest was coined by British philosopher Herbert Spencer and adopted by Darwin in a later edition of Origin of Species, although Darwin's intended meaning was not the one that others put on the phrase.Stuart
Then stop promoting the false version of the idea, that is the version that Kejonn and yourself always are spouting about, it is false.Quote (Stu @ Feb. 18 2010,05:52) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 17 2010,22:35) Oh, OK, the whole population evolved at the same time with the same features? They all became mutants at the same time. The first creature that crawled out of a puddle and breathed air and survived on land, is a wrong hypothesis. Rather, it happened to a whole population. They all evolved to the point where they could breath when they crawled out of the puddle.
Am I reading you correctly?
Yes. But it was a series of mutations that spread through the population each from one starting point, it was not the same mutation appearing simultaneously in several individuals.Stuart
So mutations are now viruses that spread? Have you no sense!?Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 17 2010,20:07) So mutations are now viruses that spread? Have you no sense!?
Speaking of mutations and viruses, did you know why there has never been a cure for the common cold? The cold virus mutates so quickly that a cure for one variation today would be useless tomorrow due to some new mutation.This is a great example of evolution on a small scale. Because the life span of a virus is so short, generations can pass within months. These viruses continue to thrive because the beneficial mutations are passed on.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 18 2010,12:43) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 17 2010,18:52) While others have ideas about religious belief being a powerful means of achieving unity in a group, with all the survival advantages that brings, Richard Dawkins thinks that religious belief is a byproduct of very young children believing everything adults tell them, which is an adaptation that has obvious and overwhelming survival advantages. Stuart
Stu, while this statement may be the norm, it was not my reality. I was made to go to church as a child, but thought God was a myth by the time I was 10.
I was atheist until two short years ago (I'm 45, now).
I used to show people a card I carried with me that said, “The first step in believing in yourself is breaking the chains that bind Christian America to its alters. Your God is dying, and will continue to do so until it joins the ranks of other myths and fairy tales long since outgrown.”
I told people that God was a joke, and if there was a God that let all the pain and suffering in the world continue, then to hell with him.
Then I got to a point in my life where I was so desparate, I prayed, “God, I never believed in you, but if you are there I need your help.”
The help was immediate-like cupped hands picking me up out of the mire I was sinking into. I can't explain it any better.
I know God exists without a doubt. Not to wish bad on you, but I hope someday you'll get to be that desparate, so you can know the peace I now have.
Love and Peace,
Mike
So you are saying this is the religion of the desperate?You know full well that you do not know for sure whether gods exist or not. Did you have to convince yourself of that tenet in order that your skeptical self did not challenge the new mythology you had swallowed?
I am a bit tired of reading “I was once an atheist” stories. They ignore all the “I used to be a theist but realised what a load of nonsense it is” stories.
Essentially you ARE wishing ill on me so I get so desperate that I will feel some need to adopt perhaps the same false comfort in order to get me through.
Thanks very much.
Stuart
Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 18 2010,13:05) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 17 2010,18:48) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 17 2010,17:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 17 2010,14:40) kejonn, British astronomer Sir Fred Doyle, “Rather than accept the fantastically small probability of life having arisen through the blind forces of nature, it seemed better to suppose that the origin of life was a deliberate intellectual act.”
Professor Michael J. Behe, “Life on earth at its most fundamental level, in its most critical components, is the product of intelligent activity.”
Forget about the intricate way a human body and brain are designed; if it is just survival of the fittest, why do we have an appreciation for art and music and beautiful sunsets, etc.?
“Survival of the fittest” is a myth created by evolutionists it actually has nothing to do with the “Theory of Evolution” which is based upon the very generic idea of “biological viability” in other words what can survive will survive, not that it is trying to survive.
The phrase Survival of the Fittest was coined by British philosopher Herbert Spencer and adopted by Darwin in a later edition of Origin of Species, although Darwin's intended meaning was not the one that others put on the phrase.Stuart
Then stop promoting the false version of the idea, that is the version that Kejonn and yourself always are spouting about, it is false.
I have never said that natural selection is the same thing as “survival of the fittest”, and in fact I have argued against this false idea myself.I am surprised to see you correcting misrepresentations of Darwin's theory, you have manufactured so many other falsehoods around it yourself.
Stuart
Ed
Quote Table salt is a very good example of order, because man has manipulated it's structure,
natural salts do not contained in the higher doses of iodine as found in table salt!
OK, pretend you have ground rocksalt in your salt shaker then.Quote Why do you falsely call me “Agnostic”, do you believe that nobody can have more understanding than you?
No, but I don’t think what you claim to be knowledge of supernatural beings and events is knowledge of anything real.See how we are already having a much more interesting conversation now I am ignoring your other numerological nonsense?
Stuart
Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 18 2010,13:07) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 18 2010,05:52) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 17 2010,22:35) Oh, OK, the whole population evolved at the same time with the same features? They all became mutants at the same time. The first creature that crawled out of a puddle and breathed air and survived on land, is a wrong hypothesis. Rather, it happened to a whole population. They all evolved to the point where they could breath when they crawled out of the puddle.
Am I reading you correctly?
Yes. But it was a series of mutations that spread through the population each from one starting point, it was not the same mutation appearing simultaneously in several individuals.Stuart
So mutations are now viruses that spread? Have you no sense!?
As they would ask you at RD.net:Do you understand anything at all of what we are saying?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 18 2010,15:56) Ed Quote Table salt is a very good example of order, because man has manipulated it's structure,
natural salts do not contained in the higher doses of iodine as found in table salt!
OK, pretend you have ground rocksalt in your salt shaker then.Quote Why do you falsely call me “Agnostic”, do you believe that nobody can have more understanding than you?
No, but I don’t think what you claim to be knowledge of supernatural beings and events is knowledge of anything real.See how we are already having a much more interesting conversation now I am ignoring your other numerological nonsense?
Stuart
Hi Stuart,You 'choose' to ignore my “Data”, because my DATA Proves “GOD is Real”; a reality you don't want! (Color adds to the clarity)
People need: “BIBLE PERCEPTION“=151 to understand “BIBLE TRUTH“=117 ! (AKJV Eph.4:22-24)
The “Divine”=63 “Deity”=63 of “The Bible”=63 is “YHVH”=63 !
Hosea 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth
is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as
[“The Latter Rain“=151 and “former rain“=117] unto the earth.The “THREE” main “FEASTS OF GOD” are…
1) “The Passover”=148; made possible by
“JESUS MESSIAH”=1482) “Pentecost”=117 started the “Former Rain”=117 of
“GOD THE FATHER”=117; “Spirit [of] God”=117(Holy Spirit)3) “Feast of Booths”=151 begins “The Latter Rain”=151 of the
“HOLY SPIRIT”=151(God The Father); “Feast [of] Tabernacles”=151.“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 “is” [The Bible's Center], the “[smallest chapter]” of the [LARGEST BOOK]!God’s Name (יהוה) is written exactly 6823 times in the Hebrew Masoretic Texts.
6823 is the 877th prime number in a long list of primes starting with two (2).
Now this might not seem significant until you realize that the number 877
is the 151st prime number. This number 151 shows “Unity” in Spirit.YHVH is ONE GOD=151 (Deut.6:4 / Eph.4:6)
1) The LORD JEHOVAH=151 (Isaiah 12:2 / Isaiah 26:4) (Old “Testament”=117)
2) LORD of Hosts=151…(AKJV Bible)…His Hosts=117: Jesus and ALL of His brethren! (Rev.11:15)
3) Holy Spirit=151 (“The word“ Structure of “GOD”: Old and New “Testament”=117)
4) Jesus Christ=151 (“Testator“=151) (Hebrews 9:16-17) (New “Testament”=117)Witnessing to the world in behalf of…
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgPS. You use satan's 'title' as you shut your eyes to “Bible Truth”!
Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 18 2010,14:41) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 17 2010,20:07) So mutations are now viruses that spread? Have you no sense!?
Speaking of mutations and viruses, did you know why there has never been a cure for the common cold? The cold virus mutates so quickly that a cure for one variation today would be useless tomorrow due to some new mutation.This is a great example of evolution on a small scale. Because the life span of a virus is so short, generations can pass within months. These viruses continue to thrive because the beneficial mutations are passed on.
The cold virus does not “Mutate” it adapts and once again you do not know what you are talking about. Viruses do not have their own reproductive mechanisms they use the cells of the host for replication.Viruses are not living organisms, they cannot live without host mechanisms. There is a cure for the common cold, I have never had a “cold” Proper rest and nutrition is the easily preventable “cold cure”
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 18 2010,15:52) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 18 2010,13:05) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 17 2010,18:48) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 17 2010,17:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 17 2010,14:40) kejonn, British astronomer Sir Fred Doyle, “Rather than accept the fantastically small probability of life having arisen through the blind forces of nature, it seemed better to suppose that the origin of life was a deliberate intellectual act.”
Professor Michael J. Behe, “Life on earth at its most fundamental level, in its most critical components, is the product of intelligent activity.”
Forget about the intricate way a human body and brain are designed; if it is just survival of the fittest, why do we have an appreciation for art and music and beautiful sunsets, etc.?
“Survival of the fittest” is a myth created by evolutionists it actually has nothing to do with the “Theory of Evolution” which is based upon the very generic idea of “biological viability” in other words what can survive will survive, not that it is trying to survive.
The phrase Survival of the Fittest was coined by British philosopher Herbert Spencer and adopted by Darwin in a later edition of Origin of Species, although Darwin's intended meaning was not the one that others put on the phrase.Stuart
Then stop promoting the false version of the idea, that is the version that Kejonn and yourself always are spouting about, it is false.
I have never said that natural selection is the same thing as “survival of the fittest”, and in fact I have argued against this false idea myself.I am surprised to see you correcting misrepresentations of Darwin's theory, you have manufactured so many other falsehoods around it yourself.
Stuart
No, I never have. I would like everyone to know the truth about darwinism and all other bogus evolution schemes and this can only be done if it is demonstrated properly, not how you or Kejonn have claimed it to be.You still use the term “Natural Selection” knowing that the word “selection” is loaded with misunderstanding, Nature doesn't select anything, does it?
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 18 2010,15:58) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 18 2010,13:07) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 18 2010,05:52) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 17 2010,22:35) Oh, OK, the whole population evolved at the same time with the same features? They all became mutants at the same time. The first creature that crawled out of a puddle and breathed air and survived on land, is a wrong hypothesis. Rather, it happened to a whole population. They all evolved to the point where they could breath when they crawled out of the puddle.
Am I reading you correctly?
Yes. But it was a series of mutations that spread through the population each from one starting point, it was not the same mutation appearing simultaneously in several individuals.Stuart
So mutations are now viruses that spread? Have you no sense!?
As they would ask you at RD.net:Do you understand anything at all of what we are saying?
Stuart
Not when you keep changing what you're saying to avoid the truthQuote (Ed J @ Feb. 18 2010,19:28) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 18 2010,15:56) Ed Quote Table salt is a very good example of order, because man has manipulated it's structure,
natural salts do not contained in the higher doses of iodine as found in table salt!
OK, pretend you have ground rocksalt in your salt shaker then.Quote Why do you falsely call me “Agnostic”, do you believe that nobody can have more understanding than you?
No, but I don’t think what you claim to be knowledge of supernatural beings and events is knowledge of anything real.See how we are already having a much more interesting conversation now I am ignoring your other numerological nonsense?
Stuart
Hi Stuart,You 'choose' to ignore my “Data”, because my DATA Proves “GOD is Real”; a reality you don't want! (Color adds to the clarity)
People need: “BIBLE PERCEPTION“=151 to understand “BIBLE TRUTH“=117 ! (AKJV Eph.4:22-24)
The “Divine”=63 “Deity”=63 of “The Bible”=63 is “YHVH”=63 !
Hosea 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth
is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as
[“The Latter Rain“=151 and “former rain“=117] unto the earth.The “THREE” main “FEASTS OF GOD” are…
1) “The Passover”=148; made possible by
“JESUS MESSIAH”=1482) “Pentecost”=117 started the “Former Rain”=117 of
“GOD THE FATHER”=117; “Spirit [of] God”=117(Holy Spirit)3) “Feast of Booths”=151 begins “The Latter Rain”=151 of the
“HOLY SPIRIT”=151(God The Father); “Feast [of] Tabernacles”=151.“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 “is” [The Bible's Center], the “[smallest chapter]” of the [LARGEST BOOK]!God’s Name (יהוה) is written exactly 6823 times in the Hebrew Masoretic Texts.
6823 is the 877th prime number in a long list of primes starting with two (2).
Now this might not seem significant until you realize that the number 877
is the 151st prime number. This number 151 shows “Unity” in Spirit.YHVH is ONE GOD=151 (Deut.6:4 / Eph.4:6)
1) The LORD JEHOVAH=151 (Isaiah 12:2 / Isaiah 26:4) (Old “Testament”=117)
2) LORD of Hosts=151…(AKJV Bible)…His Hosts=117: Jesus and ALL of His brethren! (Rev.11:15)
3) Holy Spirit=151 (“The word“ Structure of “GOD”: Old and New “Testament”=117)
4) Jesus Christ=151 (“Testator“=151) (Hebrews 9:16-17) (New “Testament”=117)Witnessing to the world in behalf of…
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgPS. You use satan's 'title' as you shut your eyes to “Bible Truth”!
How is it you use the word “The” only when it works out numerically? This disproves your whole “book of fraud” and for search engines “Holy city bible code is book of fraudQuote (Stu @ Feb. 18 2010,15:48) So you are saying this is the religion of the desperate? You know full well that you do not know for sure whether gods exist or not. Did you have to convince yourself of that tenet in order that your skeptical self did not challenge the new mythology you had swallowed?
I am a bit tired of reading “I was once an atheist” stories. They ignore all the “I used to be a theist but realised what a load of nonsense it is” stories.
Essentially you ARE wishing ill on me so I get so desperate that I will feel some need to adopt perhaps the same false comfort in order to get me through.
Thanks very much.
Stuart
If ill on your current life is what it takes for you to receive everlasting life, it's a small price to pay. Sorry if that statement hurt you, though.But what if we Christians are wrong, Stu? What's the harm? What if we die and end up fertilizing trees? We try our best to live our lives by the two greatest commandments.
1. Love God with all your heart-translation:don't be so egotistical to think one species on one planet of billions has all the answers and are the smartest things in the universe.
2. Love your neighbor as you love yourself-translation:don't cheat, steal from or hurt anybody else.
So what if we're wrong and the world is a better place because we believe and try to live by those commandments? (And please don't go to the “most wars, etc. are caused by religion” place. We know that guns don't kill people-people kill people. Same applies. Religion doesn't start wars, people do.)
BUT WHAT IF YOU'RE WRONG?
peace and love,
mike
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