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Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 17 2011,13:33) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 16 2011,12:29) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 16 2011,03:20) Are you saying that Moses didn't produce any physical evidence to show that his God existed, (Exodus 4:1-9)?
Well it is hardly unlikely that this is eye witness evidence for you.
Unless you can strap some neutrinos on the front of your car and consequently travel back in time.
No, this is not evidence for me, because I don't think it happened. (The bible is full of false claims.)However, this is the kind evidence that I would be open to accepting. Do you have any of that kind of evidence?
WitIn both sentences you do not tell truth ,you do not believe scriptures ,because you do not have truth in you ,
You will not accept scriptures because you do not believe in Gods word and do not believe in truth ,
Stop trying to present yourself with a sheep like jacket ,,your lips are betraying you.
Pierre
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 16 2011,13:31) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 16 2011,07:51) Please just answer the question, WIT. Do you, or do you not believe that something(s) existed from eternity?
I have no firm evidence for either possibility.
So which one do you personally believe? Not “know for a fact”, but BELIEVE to be more likely?In my experience Mike, you rarely get a straight answer out of an Atheist as to what they believe because they are usually clueless and the ones that do have a belief of some kind have zero proof and will deny that they have faith of any kind.
And yet, for some reason they know without a doubt that there is no God.
But scripture does paint such as fools, and it is hard to show a fool where he has erred.
Hey Stu taught me that something can come from nothing because he says that if you cannot see it, touch it, experience it, then it doesn't exist.
So before I was born, there was nothing and now I am here and I see lots of somethings.
Hmm, might have to review the something from nothing option again.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 17 2011,04:21) In my experience Mike, you rarely get a straight answer out of an Atheist as to what they believe because they are usually clueless and the ones that do have a belief of some kind have zero proof and will deny that they have faith of any kind. And yet, for some reason they know without a doubt that there is no God.
But scripture does paint such as fools, and it is hard to show a fool where he has erred.
Nice. Assuming that I am an atheist and then painting with a broad brush based on that assumption.Do you always speak confidently out of ignorance?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 17 2011,04:00) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 16 2011,13:31) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 16 2011,07:51) Please just answer the question, WIT. Do you, or do you not believe that something(s) existed from eternity?
I have no firm evidence for either possibility.
So which one do you personally believe? Not “know for a fact”, but BELIEVE to be more likely?
If you are looking for pure conjecture on my part, then I can tell that I believe that consciousness is a fundamental quality of the universe like energy and matter. We all share a common consciousness, but it does not control us, or rule us. It just is. I also believe that existence is not dependent on time, so everything that exists now exists with no deference to time.That's some pretty heavy stuff, WIT. But what's the answer to my question? Do you believe that something(s) have ALWAYS existed?
I assume from your last sentence that you do. Is that a correct assumption?
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 16 2011,16:41) Stu taught me that………..if you cannot see it, touch it, experience it, then it doesn't exist. So before I was born, there was nothing……..
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 17 2011,05:24) That's some pretty heavy stuff, WIT. But what's the answer to my question? Do you believe that something(s) have ALWAYS existed? I assume from your last sentence that you do. Is that a correct assumption?
Concepts like “always” or “never” don't really make sense once you remove the constraints of time, but for the sake of your chess game, sure, that's close enough.Well then, we'll call it a stalemate. Because we both believe that something existed from eternity. You like to think that this thing (or these things) somehow, out of the blue, just interacted with each other and BAM!, a billion years later, here we are discussing it.
I personally think that is absurd. There are a million reasons for me believing that “thing” from eternity was a being who subsequently created all other things. But I don't suppose that listing them would soften your hardened heart.
I can live with you not believing in God. But you should be a little more lenient with those of us who do, because you also believe that something was out there long before we were.
Our version of the beginning of life involves a caring, knowing Creator. Yours involves unintelligent “things” that eventually evolved into human beings – the majority of whom believe in a Creator for some odd reason.
Take care,
mikewit
the fact that you make a technical description of the food on your plate does not change the fact that you can now live without food ,or that you now are smarter and have inproved in any way ,for century's farmers could not read but knew how to plant so they could eat,and live
so if you gain the world knowledge it would not help you because it would have prevent you to eat and drink were there is some.
Pierre
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 16 2011,08:12) Mike, If you are about to try to explain to me how your view is obvious and makes the most sense, please re-read what you just quoted from me.
Quote You may think that it's “obvious” that God created everything, but you are committing the same mistake as your geocentric ancestors. Physical evidence is not a series of logical deductions. In fact, in this case, physical evidence for the god of the bible would be a demonstration that he has complete control over the universe and can bend the natural laws at will. In other words, physical evidence for the god of the bible would be a documented miracle.
Based on the sheer number of purported miracles in the bible, this should be an easy task. Do you disagree?
Hi WIT,You refuse to believe all the documented evidence.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgMike wrote:
Quote Well then, we'll call it a stalemate. Because we both believe that something existed from eternity. You like to think that this thing (or these things) somehow, out of the blue, just interacted with each other and BAM!, a billion years later, here we are discussing it. I never said any such thing. I distinctly said that when you talk about existence outside of time, it's not easily understandable in terms that we are used to thinking in. I don't think that “things” just started interacting out of the blue. I think that “things” interacting is the way of the universe, with or without the constraints of time.
Mike wrote:
Quote I personally think that is absurd. There are a million reasons for me believing that “thing” from eternity was a being who subsequently created all other things. But I don't suppose that listing them would soften your hardened heart. I was a Christian for nearly thirty years. Do you ever stop to think that maybe you are the one who is hardened in your ways? It was not easy for me to accept the truth, but I also had no choice once I discovered it.
Mike wrote:
Quote I can live with you not believing in God. But you should be a little more lenient with those of us who do, because you also believe that something was out there long before we were. I have no problem with you believing that God created everything, etc., but when people like T8 continually call those of us who think differently fools, I think that offering a defense of my position is reasonable.
Mike wrote:
Quote Our version of the beginning of life involves a caring, knowing Creator. Yours involves unintelligent “things” that eventually evolved into human beings – the majority of whom believe in a Creator for some odd reason. Consciousness, by definition, is the essence of intelligence, so you completely misunderstand my point of view.
As for our stalemate, you can break it any time. Just show me a documented miracle. (Or, have your god turn my hair green as a dramatic but trivial demonstration that he exists.)
Good luck!
Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 17 2011,17:19) Hi WIT, You refuse to believe all the documented evidence.
God bless
Ed J
You serve a false god Ed. He does not exist, except in your head. He has no more power over me than Zeus, Bacchus, or Santa Claus.Care to demonstrate otherwise?
Until you do, please stop bugging me with the same evidence that even your fellow Christians find laughable.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 17 2011,17:05) As for our stalemate, you can break it any time.
I'm good. But thanks for the offer.Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 18 2011,17:05) Mike wrote: Quote Well then, we'll call it a stalemate. Because we both believe that something existed from eternity. You like to think that this thing (or these things) somehow, out of the blue, just interacted with each other and BAM!, a billion years later, here we are discussing it. I never said any such thing. I distinctly said that when you talk about existence outside of time, it's not easily understandable in terms that we are used to thinking in. I don't think that “things” just started interacting out of the blue. I think that “things” interacting is the way of the universe, with or without the constraints of time.
Mike wrote:
Quote I personally think that is absurd. There are a million reasons for me believing that “thing” from eternity was a being who subsequently created all other things. But I don't suppose that listing them would soften your hardened heart. I was a Christian for nearly thirty years. Do you ever stop to think that maybe you are the one who is hardened in your ways? It was not easy for me to accept the truth, but I also had no choice once I discovered it.
Mike wrote:
Quote I can live with you not believing in God. But you should be a little more lenient with those of us who do, because you also believe that something was out there long before we were. I have no problem with you believing that God created everything, etc., but when people like T8 continually call those of us who think differently fools, I think that offering a defense of my position is reasonable.
Mike wrote:
Quote Our version of the beginning of life involves a caring, knowing Creator. Yours involves unintelligent “things” that eventually evolved into human beings – the majority of whom believe in a Creator for some odd reason. Consciousness, by definition, is the essence of intelligence, so you completely misunderstand my point of view.
As for our stalemate, you can break it any time. Just show me a documented miracle. (Or, have your god turn my hair green as a dramatic but trivial demonstration that he exists.)
Good luck!
WITYOU ARE A BELIEVER ;well in the Roman god of luck” that is
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 18 2011,10:11) Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 17 2011,17:19) Hi WIT, You refuse to believe all the documented evidence.
God bless
Ed J
You serve a false god Ed. He does not exist, except in your head. He has no more power over me than Zeus, Bacchus, or Santa Claus.Care to demonstrate otherwise?
Until you do, please stop bugging me with the same evidence that even your fellow Christians find laughable.
Hi WIT,What do you call this universal conscience, we call him YHVH.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Dec. 19 2011,02:49) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 18 2011,10:11) Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 17 2011,17:19) Hi WIT, You refuse to believe all the documented evidence.
God bless
Ed J
You serve a false god Ed. He does not exist, except in your head. He has no more power over me than Zeus, Bacchus, or Santa Claus.Care to demonstrate otherwise?
Until you do, please stop bugging me with the same evidence that even your fellow Christians find laughable.
Hi WIT,What do you call this universal conscience, we call him YHVH.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjeveryone has a conscience from the time he his born ,and it also is a printer of what we learn ,and establish to follow,this is a constant moving machine ,
universal conscience is has good as the general conscience of wall street,
Pierre
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 17 2011,10:20) If you are looking for pure conjecture on my part, then I can tell that I believe that consciousness is a fundamental quality of the universe like energy and matter. We all share a common consciousness, but it does not control us, or rule us. It just is.
And yet you rule out a 'conscious mind' as being the source of all including consciousness.That is like saying that the source of all energy has no energy.
Like a light bulb when turned on is emitting light and heat, and then denying that the electricity that makes that happen is not created from a source of energy such as the wind, a river, nuclear, etc.Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 18 2011,19:49) You serve a false god Ed. He does not exist, except in your head. He has no more power over me than Zeus, Bacchus, or Santa Claus. Care to demonstrate otherwise?
Until you do, please stop bugging me with the same evidence that even your fellow Christians find laughable.
Although I agree with your last statement, I do not agree with the first.God is proven in at least 3 ways.
1) Creation demands a creator. In other words, the cosmos itself demands an explanation, and saying it came from nothing or from something dead and possessing the IQ of zero is completely inadequate. Thus the only feasible explanation is a creator and this also happens to answer nearly every other question about the universe.
2) You can know God intimately. Different to knowing a religion, you can actually know God. You can even know God from your conscience as it contains knowledge that God put there.
3) You can experience this God. Even if you are not intimate with God, he can still answer your prayers, heal you, give you a vision, speak to you, and guide you by conscience.
People who hate God or even the very idea of his existence will deny all three.
But that is fine. This is the time where our lives play out the testimony of whether we get to live with this God eternally. Not all will choose God of course and will go about denying his existence in any way they can. This testimony is proof enough of whether we love God or not.
And there are at least 2 things that a Believer and an Atheist agree on.
That Atheists or those that hate God or the idea of his existence will likely not live with God and inherit eternal life. We both believe that unbelievers will not live in another life after this one for eternity.
Disagreement of course starts with what happens to believers and other related things.
But that doesn't concern believers that much and really doesn't concern Atheists for it is not their business what happens to Believers. We allow people to not believe us because we understand that there is a great division happening. Between those who love God and those who do not. We have made our choice and so it seems have many others to the contrary. I accept this, and do not try to force all to believe in God. But when challenged about it, I will most of the time be happy to give an answer.
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