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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2010,04:08) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 06 2010,11:55) WJ…..Scripture say GOD can not be tempted by Sin. How does an al Knowing being who knows the beginning from the end of a matter be tempted by anything. He may react to a situation but i don't believe He is tempted by it. We are lead away when we are tempted, but God is NOT ever led or controlled by temptations. IMO peace and love…………gene
GeneJesus was not temted by sin either. There was no lust in him to be led away by. Jesus didn't have a fallen sinful nature.
Satan came to him and found nothing in him.
Oh thats right you do not believe that satan exist as a sentient being.
So just who or what was it that came to Jesus that Jesus said found nothing in him?
WJ
Is man tempted to sin? If they are then according to your logic, Jesus was not tempted like all men.Satan found nothing in him? You assume the term “nothing” means no sin nature. This assumption is based on your preconceived ideas of doctrine. You are reading your doctrine into scripture. You interpret scripture through your doctrine.
You are just being silly
martian ………Well put brother. We are told Jesus (WAS) (tempted) in (ALL) manor of Sin as we are. But these deluded twisters of scripture TRINITARIANS and PREEXISTENCES Just do not understand . IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………..gene
Quote (martian @ April 06 2010,18:14) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2010,04:08) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 06 2010,11:55) WJ…..Scripture say GOD can not be tempted by Sin. How does an al Knowing being who knows the beginning from the end of a matter be tempted by anything. He may react to a situation but i don't believe He is tempted by it. We are lead away when we are tempted, but God is NOT ever led or controlled by temptations. IMO peace and love…………gene
GeneJesus was not tempted by sin either. There was no lust in him to be led away by. Jesus didn't have a fallen sinful nature.
Satan came to him and found nothing in him.
Oh that’s right you do not believe that satan exist as a sentient being.
So just who or what was it that came to Jesus that Jesus said found nothing in him?
WJ
Is man tempted to sin? If they are then according to your logic, Jesus was not tempted like all men.Satan found nothing in him? You assume the term “nothing” means no sin nature. This assumption is based on your preconceived ideas of doctrine. You are reading your doctrine into scripture. You interpret scripture through your doctrine.
You are just being silly
Quote (martian @ April 06 2010,18:14) Is man tempted to sin? If they are then according to your logic, Jesus was not tempted like all men.
martianThat’s right, Jesus was not tempted with evil like we are.
But “every man is tempted“, when he is “drawn away of his own lust, and enticed“. James 1:14
Jesus didn't have lust for he was not born in sin…
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Pss 51:5
Now then it is no more I that do it, “but SIN THAT DWELLETH IN ME. For I know that in me (THAT IS, IN MY FLESH,) DWELLETH NO GOOD THING“: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. Rom 7:17, 18
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but “SIN THAT DWELLETH IN ME”. Rom 7:20
Knowing this, that “our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed”, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Rom 6:6
That ye put off concerning the former conversation “THE OLD MAN, WHICH IS CORRUPT ACCORDING TO THE DECEITFUL LUSTS”; Eph 4:22
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off “THE OLD MAN WITH HIS DEEDS”; Col 3:9
Jesus did not have an “old man” or sinful nature, that is why the scriptures says he came “In the “LIKENESS OF SINFULL FLESH or LIKENESS OF MEN”, (Rom 8:3 – Phil 2:7). His flesh was not tainted by the blood of Adam for his blood and body are the “Blood of God”, (Acts 20:28).
This is why Jesus came into this world through a virgin and is called the 'Only Son of God” and the “Second Adam”.
Jesus said…
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but “THAT WHICH COMETH OUT OF THE MOUTH, THIS DEFILETH A MAN…. But those things which proceed out of the mouth COME FORTH FROM THE HEART; AND THEY DEFILE THE MAN“. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man. Matt 15:11-20
None of these things were ever in the heart of Jesus! Therefore he could never from within be tempted to do any of those things and neither could the Father.
So you go ahead and serve your manmade Jesus that is like us in every way, but the Jesus of the scriptures was not in everyway like us for if he were he would have been a sinner like us also!
WJ
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 07 2010,11:35) martian ………Well put brother. We are told Jesus (WAS) (tempted) in (ALL) manor of Sin as we are. But these deluded twisters of scripture TRINITARIANS and PREEXISTENCES Just do not understand . IMO peace and love to you and yours…………..gene
GeneWhat you are saying is a “half truth”. Can you point us to the scripture that says…
“Jesus (WAS) (tempted) in (ALL) manor of Sin as we are..”
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2010,04:50) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 07 2010,11:35) martian ………Well put brother. We are told Jesus (WAS) (tempted) in (ALL) manor of Sin as we are. But these deluded twisters of scripture TRINITARIANS and PREEXISTENCES Just do not understand . IMO peace and love to you and yours…………..gene
GeneWhat you are saying is a “half truth”. Can you point us to the scripture that says…
“Jesus (WAS) (tempted) in (ALL) manor of Sin as we are..”
WJ
wj1Co 15:19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2010,04:50) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 07 2010,11:35) martian ………Well put brother. We are told Jesus (WAS) (tempted) in (ALL) manor of Sin as we are. But these deluded twisters of scripture TRINITARIANS and PREEXISTENCES Just do not understand . IMO peace and love to you and yours…………..gene
GeneWhat you are saying is a “half truth”. Can you point us to the scripture that says…
“Jesus (WAS) (tempted) in (ALL) manor of Sin as we are..”
WJ
Hi WJ,Heb:4:15: For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of
our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgWJ,
In fact, Jesus was tested in far greater ways than a normal human would be.
Who, if he were starving and yet know that God had given them the power to turn stones into bread, could honestly refraun from using that power to save themself? Perhaps in ones cosy warm house with food close at hand and an already fat belly, it is easy to say 'Not I, Lord'!
And again, being offered a grest kingdom Who wouldn't want that, just do a simple thing: Bow down and worship Satan, it's such a small, innocuous thing, and you don't have to mean it, really, do you? All that for just that?
What's the alternative? You will be going to your death in the most hidious fashion known to man (Jews), hung on a tree! Hmmm… A no brainer, one would think.Oh, yes, and being humiliated for something you did not do, for a crime you did not do, for sins you did not commit, for people who even despised you, the very same people who scourged you, spat on you, shamed you for their own pleasure, lied about you and denied the doctrine that you brought concerning the very God they claim to worship.
And all Jesus had to do was 'confess' and he would have been freed instead of the 'enemy of the state', Barrabus.WJ, can you imagine what it might have been like for Jesus to be laying down his FULLY HUMAN LIFE (How can a God suffer in the flesh?) after and during his superhuman efforts to expound the virtues of servitude to God, to try and galvanise God's beloved nation into returning to wholesome worship of the One God, YHVH, the God of their father, Abraham, to repent of their sins and believe in him, Jesus, the Begotten first Son of God, the second Adam (the first Son of God).
WJ, do you feel how painful that must have been for Christ, has any been tested and tempted to just give up on them, on mankind, on us and just say 'to hell with them, gimme that kingdom now, these people aren't worth my life', yes, Satan was still dangling the human kingdom in front if him (imo) even while he was about to be crucified:'Father, if this cup could be removed from me.' but he recovers himself, 'But not as I will but as you will'
WJ, what did you want to see from Christ to know that he suffered temtpation to his very death, blood?
Quote (Ed J @ April 07 2010,18:23) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2010,04:50) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 07 2010,11:35) martian ………Well put brother. We are told Jesus (WAS) (tempted) in (ALL) manor of Sin as we are. But these deluded twisters of scripture TRINITARIANS and PREEXISTENCES Just do not understand . IMO peace and love to you and yours…………..gene
GeneWhat you are saying is a “half truth”. Can you point us to the scripture that says…
“Jesus (WAS) (tempted) in (ALL) manor of Sin as we are..”
WJ
Hi WJ,Heb:4:15: For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of
our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EdFirst of all “as we are” is not in the original text, secondly the Temptations that Jesus experienced that we all experience is from the outside and not from the inside.
Gene said…”Jesus (WAS) (tempted) in (ALL) manor of Sin as we are..“.
That is not what that verse says does it?
People believe that somehow like sinfull men Jesus was tempted to lust, or had thoughts of having sex with a minor, or he was tempted to rape, or to murder, or to molest a little child, or to have sex with a man or an animal, or to steal from his Mom or to worship idols!
If the verse that you quote means that Jesus was tempted to do every kind of evil known to man then he would have had evil thoughts to do things that many men would not even began to be tempted by!
That is not what the verse means and it is only another one of those sickening attempts by unregenerate men to make Jesus the perfect sinless Lamb of God after their own sinfull nature! Anathema!
WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ April 07 2010,19:15) WJ, In fact, Jesus was tested in far greater ways than a normal human would be.
Who, if he were starving and yet know that God had given them the power to turn stones into bread, could honestly refraun from using that power to save themself? Perhaps in ones cosy warm house with food close at hand and an already fat belly, it is easy to say 'Not I, Lord'!
And again, being offered a grest kingdom Who wouldn't want that, just do a simple thing: Bow down and worship Satan, it's such a small, innocuous thing, and you don't have to mean it, really, do you? All that for just that?
What's the alternative? You will be going to your death in the most hidious fashion known to man (Jews), hung on a tree! Hmmm… A no brainer, one would think.Oh, yes, and being humiliated for something you did not do, for a crime you did not do, for sins you did not commit, for people who even despised you, the very same people who scourged you, spat on you, shamed you for their own pleasure, lied about you and denied the doctrine that you brought concerning the very God they claim to worship.
And all Jesus had to do was 'confess' and he would have been freed instead of the 'enemy of the state', Barrabus.WJ, can you imagine what it might have been like for Jesus to be laying down his FULLY HUMAN LIFE (How can a God suffer in the flesh?) after and during his superhuman efforts to expound the virtues of servitude to God, to try and galvanise God's beloved nation into returning to wholesome worship of the One God, YHVH, the God of their father, Abraham, to repent of their sins and believe in him, Jesus, the Begotten first Son of God, the second Adam (the first Son of God).
WJ, do you feel how painful that must have been for Christ, has any been tested and tempted to just give up on them, on mankind, on us and just say 'to hell with them, gimme that kingdom now, these people aren't worth my life', yes, Satan was still dangling the human kingdom in front if him (imo) even while he was about to be crucified:'Father, if this cup could be removed from me.' but he recovers himself, 'But not as I will but as you will'
WJ, what did you want to see from Christ to know that he suffered temtpation to his very death, blood?
JASo where is the evidence he was tempted with evil within himself?
Do you think there was an iota of desire for him to desobey the Father?
Where is the lust for power in him?
Jesus left everything he shared with the Father to come in this earth and give his life a ransom and his face the scriptures say was set like a flynt.
I agree Jesus temptations were greater, but they were not because of evil inside of him.
Again, Jesus said satan came and found nothing in him. John 14:30
Nothing in Jesus responded to the worlds evil lust and desires for he was not of this world but was the Lord of Glory that came in the likeness of sinfull flesh and for sin condemned sin in the flesh!
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in “THE LIKENESS OF SINFUL MAN” to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man.. Rom 8:3
WJ
Ok,
I missed the point.I don't get it why anyone thinks that Jesus had evil within him that he would be wrestling with.
This is the sort of debate that has no profit.
It is a single line debate that only greeks and Sadduccees wallow in.
Jesus had no sin in him, was tested by the God of Sin and passed. End off.
However, to say 'Could Jesus have sinned?' and the answer is a definite 'Yes'
As my pist points out, he was tempted all through his life but because there was ni sin in him, he resisted the insertion, to the glory of his father.
Is it not said, and wholly believable and pleasing, that one should be tested as only by being tested can one demonstrate flawlessness.Now, any found with flaws can go to the refinery and be corrected and tested again. Finally, the flawless one, the one with no sin will willingly submit themselves to the test not fearing the refiner hot wroth.
But he who hides from the test, or believes they do not need testing because they are already sinless, they may find rejection at the mandatory Last test.If it were impossible for Jesus to sin then there could be no possible reason to put him to the test.
Saying Jesus could not sin is to deny the superhuman effort of resisting the evil one, to denigrade what he did for us.Quote (JustAskin @ April 07 2010,20:15) However, to say 'Could Jesus have sinned?' and the answer is a definite 'Yes'
JaHow do you know this? Do you think it was possible for Jesus to fail? He didn't and neither did the Father. Jesus was the “Lamb of God that was slain before the foundation of the world”. So no it was not possible for him to fail, for God cannot fail.
Jesus was the “Word/God” in the flesh and had the Spirit without measure!
WJ
Quote (JustAskin @ April 07 2010,20:15) If it were impossible for Jesus to sin then there could be no possible reason to put him to the test.
Saying Jesus could not sin is to deny the superhuman effort of resisting the evil one, to denigrade what he did for us.
JAIf it were possible for Jesus to fail then it would mean that every prophesy spoken of him would have failed!
Saying that Jesus could have failed would be saying that God was a liar.
It is the carnal mind of man that likes to think that somehow Jesus was like us in everyway or that somehow satan could have any hold on him or any desire toward him.
But I agree that Jesus was more than human because he is God!
Didn't you just say something about showing me how small I am, yet something as simple and basic as this you get wrong?
WJ
JustAskin said:
Quote However, to say 'Could Jesus have sinned?' and the answer is a definite 'Yes'
Jesus could not have sinned. The answer is a definite no. Hebrews says that Jesus was without any weakness:28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
There it is! It explicitly says that the law appointed men high priests who had weakness. But Jesus was not appointed by the law but by an oath. Therefore, Jesus definitely did not have weakness. The oath could not have failed. Therefore, Jesus could not have failed.
JA is full of baloney! The reason for this is that JA does not read the Bible.
thinker
WJ,
You are doing a magnificent job taking on these heretics here. All of them put together cannot match you.
Well done my bro!
Jack
Quote (thethinker @ April 07 2010,21:06) JustAskin said: Quote However, to say 'Could Jesus have sinned?' and the answer is a definite 'Yes'
Jesus could not have sinned. The answer is a definite no. Hebrews says that Jesus was without any weakness:28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
There it is! It explicitly says that the law appointed men high priests who had weakness. But Jesus was not appointed by the law but by an oath. Therefore, Jesus definitely did not have weakness. The oath could not have failed. Therefore, Jesus could not have failed.
JA is full of baloney! The reason for this is that JA does not read the Bible.
thinker
JackThanks for the scripture.
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ April 07 2010,21:10) WJ, You are doing a magnificent job taking on these heretics here. All of them put together cannot match you.
Well done my bro!
Jack
JackThe scriptures speak for themselves. But thanks, I appreciate the encouragment.
Keep up the good fight of faith yourself brother!
Blessings Keith
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2010,13:10) Quote (thethinker @ April 07 2010,21:06) JustAskin said: Quote However, to say 'Could Jesus have sinned?' and the answer is a definite 'Yes'
Jesus could not have sinned. The answer is a definite no. Hebrews says that Jesus was without any weakness:28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
There it is! It explicitly says that the law appointed men high priests who had weakness. But Jesus was not appointed by the law but by an oath. Therefore, Jesus definitely did not have weakness. The oath could not have failed. Therefore, Jesus could not have failed.
JA is full of baloney! The reason for this is that JA does not read the Bible.
thinker
JackThanks for the scripture.
WJ
Keith,See my post above inwhich I applaud you. You are a faithful servant of the Lord. These you face here are disobedient.
thinker
So, it was a done deed.
Jesus didn't have to do anything except turn up on earth, walk about in his 'god shield' telling vulnerable man that they should be like him.
Be respectful to the man, man!
Why was he tested by Satan, the god of sin?
Was he not calling out to his father to remove the cup from him? What do you think that was about but the contemplation of 'a way out'. But even so, he recovered himself and said 'Not as I will, but as you will'
What do you think that means?The main problem is that we cannot possibly understand the agony if a sinless soul going down to sheol, a sinless soul does not have a unity with the grave, that's why he 'took upon himself all the sins of man'.
Can you even begin to imagine what that feels like?
Think if a man who witnesses a number of unruly children doing a wrong deed. When the deed is discovered the kids are condemned to death but the man steps up and claims that it was him that did it, in effect because he saw them but didn't stop them, he is guilty and will bear their sins.
However, as he is about to be executed he suddenly realises the reality of what he has done, he is actually innocent, he is losing his life for people who maybe wouldn't spit on him if he was on fire. He agonises over his decision, swears blood over it. Is he now not tempted to confess that, actually, he did see the out of order kids but there was ni way he could have actually stopped them, etc?Ok, not a direct analogy but can there be one?
The point is, Yes, Jesus was tempted – and there can be no point in tempting someone that cannot be tempted, indeed there is noone that cannot be tempted, even God Almighty… Yes, you heard, God Almighty.
Here is the explanation:
To be tempted does not mean that you have sin in you, that's just messy thinking.
To be tempted means trying to avoid doing something can would either otherwise cause great pain to you (including another person on your behalf) or cause you great joy illegaly, to benefit yourself over another without just cause (i.e. Cheat)
When man sinned, God could have wiped him from the face of the earth and started again – that is the temptation… To wipe out man and start again, but lo! How Satan would have gloated.
God agonised over the issue and decided to do the right thing and persevere with his creation, sinful as they now were, to prove to Satan that the Word issued forth from His mouth will not return until it has accomplished the deed.Satan was 'perfect in all his way, in the day that he was created until sin was found in him'
What does that say. A perfect creation allowed sin to insert itself in him.
Adam was 'sinless' in the day that he was created but sought to gain a pleasure not offered to him. He wad tested, and failed. The fruit in itself did not harm him nor enlighten him, but by eating it he broke the only command Gid gave him and he realised that he could do things without God and still 'live'(Satan had hidden the full devestating reality, though. Perhaps even Satan didn't realise what he had done but arrogantly wanted man to worship him for freeing them from God's rule, so he might hsve thought, saying 'you can gain the advantage by knowing good from bad – I am the guardian of the Tree of Knowledge of good and bad. (Who is the guardian of the Tree of Life?) )All have the ability to sin,
It is the knowledge of the consequence of sinning and holding fast to what is Righteous, this is what is important, what makes the difference.
When temptation comes the Righteous does the Righteous thing. The sinner wavers and weights things and sometimes, always, does the unrighteous thing to gain a temporary pleasure or avoid an embarrassment.
What does the scriptures say: 'if you did not know the law you cannot be guilty of breaking it. But, once knowing the law, you are nolonger innocent if you do break it'
And Jesus was 'under the law of man' and was all the time tempted to break the law, to sin, but he Resisted the temptation.Resisting the temptation does not mean that he 'could not' sin. It means he was Subject to Sinning like all men of flesh but he was Righteous in all his ways And Resisted.
For the Truth to be known there needs to be detractors, then the truth shines like a light in dark places.
For Jesus to be shown as sinless He needed to be shown being tested in real or perceived sinful situations and His Rightroud ways shine like a beacon in the darkQuote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2010,11:27) Quote (Ed J @ April 07 2010,18:23) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2010,04:50) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 07 2010,11:35) martian ………Well put brother. We are told Jesus (WAS) (tempted) in (ALL) manor of Sin as we are. But these deluded twisters of scripture TRINITARIANS and PREEXISTENCES Just do not understand . IMO peace and love to you and yours…………..gene
GeneWhat you are saying is a “half truth”. Can you point us to the scripture that says…
“Jesus (WAS) (tempted) in (ALL) manor of Sin as we are..”
WJ
Hi WJ,Heb:4:15: For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of
our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EdFirst of all “as we are” is not in the original text
WJ
Hi WJ,Sorry, I'm usually meticulous in this, here is how I should have posted it…
Heb:4:15: For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of
our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.Italics are indeed added words, added by the translators! I will try not to let this happen again; OK?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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