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Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 29 2013,04:30) Kerwin. The ones who live by the Spirit will live forever.
We receive and live by the Spirit through faith in Jesus' words.
There is only one way to live forever.
Note: If I am not understanding you correctly then please help me understand.*ONE WHO LIVE BY THE SPIRIT WILL LIVE FOREVER*.
*YOU SAID IT*. HIS BODY IS SPIRIT FOR HE IS THE **WORD** OF GOD,WHICH IS SPIRIT.WE OUGHT TO EAT THE WORDS OF POWER IN PRINT, AND FILL OURSELVES WITH THE SPIRIT.
SO WE WILL BE ONE WITH HIM.JESUS LIVED BY THE FATHER,AND WE LIVE BY HIM.
*MY FOOD IS TO DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER*.THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK TO YOU;THEY ARE SPIRIT;
AND THEY ARE LIFE.
IT IS THE SPIRIT THAT QUICKENS.
THE FLESH PROFITETH NOTHING.wakeup.
Wakeup,Close, but I won't specify print because God's word can be heard in many ways including the teachings of Spirit who is sent in Jesus' name.
In addition, Jesus' flesh symbolizes the Spirit but it is not the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit reveals the Word to those that have it from when they first heed its call but have not yet received it.
Jesus' flesh profits nothing while his Spirit gives eternal life.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 29 2013,20:19) Wakeup,Sep. wrote:Kerwin.
Quote The ones who live by the Spirit will live forever.
We receive and live by the Spirit through faith in Jesus' words.
There is only one way to live forever.
Note: If I am not understanding you correctly then please help me understand.*ONE WHO LIVE BY THE SPIRIT WILL LIVE FOREVER*.
*YOU SAID IT*. HIS BODY IS SPIRIT FOR HE IS THE **WORD** OF GOD,WHICH IS SPIRIT.WE OUGHT TO EAT THE WORDS OF POWER IN PRINT, AND FILL OURSELVES WITH THE SPIRIT.
SO WE WILL BE ONE WITH HIM.JESUS LIVED BY THE FATHER,AND WE LIVE BY HIM.
*MY FOOD IS TO DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER*.THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK TO YOU;THEY ARE SPIRIT;
AND THEY ARE LIFE.
IT IS THE SPIRIT THAT QUICKENS.
THE FLESH PROFITETH NOTHING.wakeup.
Wakeup,Close, but I won't specify print because God's word can be heard in many ways including the teachings of Spirit who is sent in Jesus' name.
In addition, Jesus' flesh symbolizes the Spirit but it is not the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit reveals the Word to those that have it from when they first heed its call but have not yet received it.
Jesus' flesh profits nothing while his Spirit gives eternal life.
Kerwin.(quote).
Close, but I won't specify print because God's word can be heard in many ways including the teachings of Spirit who is sent in Jesus' name.MANY WAYS; TRUE: BUT ONLY THE ONE WAY IS THE TRUTH.
John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of **this bread**, he shall live for ever:
and ****the bread that I will give is my flesh****,
which I will give for the life of the world.THE BREAD IS HIS FLESH; IS THE HOLY SPIRIT,
IS THE WORD OF GOD.John 16:14 **He shall glorify me**: for ****he shall receive of mine****, and shall shew it unto you.
THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH SHALL GLORIFY JESUS.
HE SHALL RECEIVE *OF JESUS*.John 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine:
therefore said I,
that ****he shall take of mine****, and shall shew it unto you.THE HOLY SPIRIT COMES FROM JESUS.
THE *WORD OF GOD* IS FULL OF TRUTH.wakeup.
Mike,
Quote See my last post to 2B. Remind yourself what question Paul was answering when he gave us this teaching. (Hint: He was NOT talking about dual natures of man, but the difference between how we are now, and how we will be after the resurrection. I am speaking of the cultural context of Paul's answer which is not the same context as today. I also point out the same culture led the writers of that time to use flesh and nature as well as other words in ways we are not accustomed to today.
Quote And that is the part that I said was just “too much”, Kerwin. Of course angels are spirit beings who exist in the spirit realm of heaven. No scripture ever comes close to “hinting” that angels are comprised of any flesh, nor did Jesus ever do a “test” that concluded spirits cannot eat or be touched. And that is the part that I said was just “too much”, Kerwin. Of course angels are spirit beings who exist in the spirit realm of heaven. No scripture ever comes close to “hinting” that angels are comprised of any flesh, nor did Jesus ever do a “test” that concluded spirits cannot eat or be touched.
Let us look at your point and assume spirits can be touched and eat. Jesus invited the disciples who believe he is a spirit to touch him and so they do. Since they did and you claim spirits can be touched Jesus can still be a spirit. Jesus then instructed them to give him food and they did and he ate it but since you claim spirits can eat he has failed to make the case that he is not a spirit. On the other hand if we assume my point is true then Jesus succeeds in making his case.
Quote As I have done in the past, I'll remind you again about the story of Balaam and the donkey. If that angel was “flesh”, then why could only the donkey see him at first, while Balaam could not? The passage answers that. God opened Balaam's eyes to see what already there. You would run into the side of a barn if God chose for you not to see it while others whose eyes he did not close would be wondering about your health.
Quote And if he was spirit who cannot be touched, then what threat to Balaam was the sword he was swinging? How could a spirit sword hurt Balaam if it could not touch him? All I can say about angel swords is they are miraculous weapons.
Quote Just don't forget that the main job of a diplomat is to blow smoke up other peoples' asses, and tell them white lies to keep the peace. I am not good with white lies as I seem to be by nature unable to comprehend when little things are offensive and lies have become more gross. I have learned to either keep quiet or to depersonalize those things others seem to take offense at.
Quote (2besee @ Sep. 29 2013,11:10) Terraricca,
I believe that Jesus was raised from the dead in the flesh and bone. He was not a spirit. He then ascended to Heaven, and was presented before God.Touch me and see. A spirit does not have flesh and bone like you see that I have.
Do not hold on to me , for I have not yet
ascended to the Father. (John 20:17)Then I saw a Lamb, looking
as if it had been slain, standing
at the center of the throne,
encircled by the four living
creatures and the elders. (Revelation 5:6 and Daniel 7:13)Do you think that Jesus was raised as a spirit being from the dead, and then he ascended to the Father as a spirit?
2beei believe Christ was resurrected in the flesh the same body that he ad before his dead , and after he went to his disciples to show himself as a prove that in fact he was resurrected ,he went up to were he was before he came down mean heaven and was changed from flesh to spirit (i do believe he had the powers to be a spirit if he chose so to be ,because dead ad no longer a grip on him)what is seen in Revelation is shown as an allegorical image ,
scriptures says flesh and blood can not go to heaven ;nature will tell you that
Quote (2besee @ Sep. 29 2013,17:51) Wakeup, sorry. Did you not teach that to be born again of “water” is NOT water baptism?
Did you not say that being born again of water is being born from your mothers womb?
Besee.There is no such as born again of water,
this is an invention of religion with no understanding.
Born again can only be the second birth,and that is
when Mother zion gives birth to her children/the resurrection.
Then you will be spirit,for Mother zion is spirit.It is sown a natural body?flesh.
It is raised a spiritual body.
The natural first;and then the spiritual.Jesus was born of water and blood/his birth.
Meaning: he is truly flesh,not some hybrid.
He is like his brethren.
He feels pain and sorrow,and sad,and being abused.
and also hunger.He is the son of man/human.
He is full of the holy spirit;and yet he is not spirit
but flesh,and resurrected in a body so much better than the angels.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 28 2013,16:30) Kerwin. The ones who live by the Spirit will live forever.
We receive and live by the Spirit through faith in Jesus' words.
There is only one way to live forever.
Note: If I am not understanding you correctly then please help me understand.
Hi Wakeup,You did the first part right. You hit the “Quote” button, and then pasted Kerwin's words behind the word “Quote”. Now you just have to remember to hit that same “Quote” button a second time AFTER you paste his words in.
(After you've hit it once, the “Quote” button will have an asterisk on it. That's telling you that you've opened the quote box, and now need to hit the “Quote” button again to close it – after the words you are quoting.)
So you'll have the word “quote” in brackets before the words you are quoting, then the word “quote” with a forward slash in brackets AFTER the words you are quoting. The second one will look like this: [/quote]
The first one looks like this:
And all the words in between will post inside a quote box on the finished post.
Quote The ones who deny the true resurrection of Jesus' flesh also deny the power of God – and that today is the JWs. Of such Paul told us to keep away.
2B,I have discussed this in length with David, our resident JW. And although my understanding of scripture is often aligned with the JW's understanding, this is one of the times where we disagree. You are correct that the JWs think Jesus was raised from the dead as a spirit. I do not believe this because it would mean Jesus LIED to his disciples in Luke 24:39.
So I DON'T deny that Jesus was raised from the dead as a flesh being.
Quote To say that flesh and bone cannot be changed, and enter Heaven, is to say that things are impossible to God – but with God ANYTHING is possible.
My understanding exactly. We know from Luke 24 that Jesus WASN'T yet a spirit. But we know from 1 Cor 15 that Jesus BECAME a spirit. We also know from many scriptures that FLESH cannot enter the kingdom of God. And we know from Phil 3:21 that lowly FLESH bodies can be TRANSFORMED into glorious spiritual bodies like Jesus has right now.So my understanding is that Jesus was raised from the dead in the exact same body in which he died. He remained on earth with that body for 40 days, because there was still work for him to do. And at the end of that 40 days, his flesh body was TRANSFORMED upon his ascension to heaven.
(Note: 40 days seems to be a “holy” amount of time for special occasions to God. God made it rain for 40 days to wash the wickedness from the earth. Two different times, Moses prepared for 40 days before his most holy meetings with God on the mountain. Goliath taunted Israel for 40 days before Jehovah delivered them through David. Elijah traveled 40 days to reach the mountain of God. Jesus prepared for 40 days before beginning his ministry.)
Quote Don't DENY the power with the teachings of men, Mike. You are easily led astray.
Says the man who has just promised to come back with the writings of MEN that will prove us wrong.
Wakeup,
Hit “Quote” on this post, and then scroll through the bottom box. Notice how all of 2B's words begin with the word quote in brackets, and end with the word /quote in brackets.
Anything in between those will post in a quote box.
Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 28 2013,22:57) Quote (2besee @ Sep. 29 2013,13:18) Wakeup,
As was water baptism for the Jew and gentile, but you disagree with that also.
Should I go on?
Besee.Dont start twisting my words.
I BELIEVE IN WATER BABTISM.
What I dont believe is, You saying born
of the spirit is born again at baptism.john 3.You are also twisting Jesus own words.
He said born of the spirit is spirit.
But you can not proof that you are spirit.
You still bleed when cut.
What are spirits doing on earth?
You suppose to be in heaven.What is the need for your resurrection,
You are already quickened.wakeup.
Good points. Well said.Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 29 2013,03:03) Jesus did not say I am not a spirit yet but I soon will become one.
You are correct that Jesus didn't specifically say those words, Kerwin.But we know from other scriptural words that Jesus did become a spirit. And we know that lowly flesh bodies are transformed into spiritual, heavenly bodies. And we know that flesh cannot enter the kingdom of God, nor even see it.
We must take the scriptures as a whole. Of course, you already know this.
Quote The ones who deny the true resurrection of Jesus' flesh also deny the power of God – and that today is the JWs. Of such Paul told us to keep away. This has been stated a few times. I'm not sure why. JW definitely believe Jesus “came in the flesh.” Or, as it possibly meant, “Jesus as Christ (the anointed one) came in the flesh.”
They don't believe he was raised in the flesh but believe he was raised a spirit.
Regarding 1 John, biblehub gives this commentary:
“These seducers deny “Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh,” or (as the Greek may possibly mean) they deny “Jesus as Christ coming in the flesh.” The present participle ἐρχόμενον seems to indicate exactly the position of some of the Gnostic teachers. The Jew denied that the Incarnation had taken place – the Messiah had not yet come. The Gnostic denied that the Incarnation could take place: no such Person as the Christ coming in the flesh was possible; that the Infinite should become finite, that the Divine Word should become flesh, was inconceivable. The teacher who brings such doctrine as this “is the deceiver and the antichrist”
(Bible hub.com)JESUS GAVE UP HIS PERFECT HUMAN LIFE, HIS SOUL, AS A RANSOM SACRIFICE.
(If you think Jesus was given that human life back, with his human body, then would this not be like taking the ransom back. He forfeited, gave up, surrendered his human life. It was a sacrifice.)
1 TIMOTHY 2:5,6
“…a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all….”
MATTHEW 20:28
“…the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.”
COLOSIANS 1:14
“…by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins.”
TITUS 2:13,14
“…Christ Jesus, who gave himself for us…”
JOHN 10:17,18
“I surrender my soul…No man has taken it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative.”
1 JOHN 2:2:
“He is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins…”Did he then take it back? Did he take back the ransom? Did he take back his human sacrificed life/body?
This is one reason they don't believe he was RESURRECTED in the flesh, and of course they believe he “came in the flesh.”
I know you have discussed these on here already, but just as a point of reference, here is another reason they believe Jesus was RESURRECTED a spirit.
The Bible is very clear when it says:
“Christ died once for all time concerning sins . . . , he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) Humans with flesh-and-blood bodies cannot live in heaven. Of the resurrection to heavenly life, the Bible says: “It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. . . . flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom.” (1 Corinthians 15:44-50) Only spirit persons with spiritual bodies can live in heaven.1 CORINTHIANS 15:42-50, RS: “So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. . . . It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. . . . Thus it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being’; the last Adam [Jesus Christ, who was a perfect human as Adam had been at the start] became a life-giving SPIRIT. . . . I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.”
John 1:14
“The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.”
Agreed. The Word became flesh. The antichrist denies this. Back then, many antichrists were denying this. I don't think these antichrists were saying Jesus was resurrected but as a spirit. They were saying that John 1:14 didn't happen. They were denying Jesus, who of course came in the flesh.
I've thought about this a while. 1 John sort of makes athiests antichrists. (Against-Christ). They deny he came in the flesh.
This apparently means we shouldn't speak to athiests. And yet, on this forum, it happens a lot.
If anyone thinks I am an antichrist, I strongly advise you to follow bible counsel and not discuss this with me, lest you be seduced.
was it not imperative that Christ showed himself as an resurrected man
yes ;that was the visible prove of what he ad teach them that was to happen to the Christ ;and it was important to be seen as he was ,as they have known him ,agreed that he was raised as a spirit being ,that is why he became invisible
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 29 2013,22:12) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 29 2013,03:03) Jesus did not say I am not a spirit yet but I soon will become one.
You are correct that Jesus didn't specifically say those words, Kerwin.But we know from other scriptural words that Jesus did become a spirit. And we know that lowly flesh bodies are transformed into spiritual, heavenly bodies. And we know that flesh cannot enter the kingdom of God, nor even see it.
We must take the scriptures as a whole. Of course, you already know this.
Mike,My whole case is about taking Scripture as a whole. You put more importance on your literal interpretation of 1 Corinthian 15:50, an interpretation some experts declare is wrong, while I put more importance on in the fact of Jesus being resurrected in a flesh and bone as an example of how we will be raised or changed.
I have no new points at this time.
Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 30 2013,02:26) was it not imperative that Christ showed himself as an resurrected man yes ;that was the visible prove of what he ad teach them that was to happen to the Christ ;and it was important to be seen as he was ,as they have known him ,agreed that he was raised as a spirit being ,that is why he became invisible
T,Jesus did not give evidence he was a spirit being, he gave evidence he was not a spirit.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 30 2013,04:41) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 30 2013,02:26) was it not imperative that Christ showed himself as an resurrected man yes ;that was the visible prove of what he ad teach them that was to happen to the Christ ;and it was important to be seen as he was ,as they have known him ,agreed that he was raised as a spirit being ,that is why he became invisible
T,Jesus did not give evidence he was a spirit being, he gave evidence he was not a spirit.
so any man could appear in a locked roomQuote (terraricca @ Sep. 30 2013,04:46) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 30 2013,04:41) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 30 2013,02:26) was it not imperative that Christ showed himself as an resurrected man yes ;that was the visible prove of what he ad teach them that was to happen to the Christ ;and it was important to be seen as he was ,as they have known him ,agreed that he was raised as a spirit being ,that is why he became invisible
T,Jesus did not give evidence he was a spirit being, he gave evidence he was not a spirit.
so any man could appear in a locked room
T,Yes, if God chooses to allow us the super advanced technology it would take. God does not need that technology.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 29 2013,21:42) Quote (2besee @ Sep. 29 2013,05:29) Wakeup, you are a deceiver AND YOU KNOW IT.
2besee,A gentler rebuke might serve God better. For example the teachings you choose to hold to are false and you should know it. We are to slow to anger and in our anger we are not to sin. Lessons I too am learning.
Kerwin yes you're right.Wakeup, I apologize
Quote scriptures says flesh and blood can not go to
heaven ;nature will tell you thatTerraricca,
Nature ALSO tells us that flesh cannot be thrown into a fiery oven, and not be burnt.
However, with God, anything is possible.
So if God choose to change human flesh into a new resurrected type which is capable of things which we could not even imagine – being also imperishable.. then, we either believe it or we do not.
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