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Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 27 2013,14:40) Mike, I know of two English translations that translate the passage to mortal bodies cannot enter the kingdom and so the passage is not definite prove your chosen interpretation is correct. Both translators claim that flesh and blood were a way people of the time Scripture was written spoke of mortal bodies. It is a common way of speech in Scripture that differentiates mere men to men who live by the Spirit.
To accept those two translation and the parallel interpretation of the words flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom would mean that Paul's word apply to Jesus and his body that was buried was not the body that was raised. His body that was buried was mere flesh while his body that was raised with power by the Spirit is more than flesh, Spiritual.
Kerwin.How will you interpret these scriptures,using
your doctrine.John 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may **eat thereof**, and not die.
John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man **eat of this bread**, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is *my flesh*, which I will give for the life of the world.
John 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us **his flesh to eat**?
John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye **eat the flesh** of the Son of man, and drink **his blood**, ye have no life in you.
John 6:54 Whoso **eateth my flesh**, and **drinketh my blood**, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:55 For **my flesh is meat** indeed, and **my blood** is drink indeed.
John 6:56 He that **eateth my flesh**, and **drinketh my blood**, dwelleth in me and I in him.
john 6:57 As the living Father hath send me,and I live by the Father:So he that **eateth me**,even he shall live by me.
How are we to EAT HIS *FLESH* AND *DRINK* HIS BLOOD?
For you say that his flesh is *flesh and bone*.
And his blood.??wakeup.
T8, yes, I agree that to some degree it is a mystery. Jesus is in heaven, but Jesus is also here with us in spirit. The only spirit is the Holy Spirit, which is how the Father was also in Heaven to Jesus, and in him also, through the Holy Spirit. So, the connection to Heaven is without a doubt the Holy Spirit.
The first Adam became a living soul on earth, so to follow the pattern, the second Adam would have become a life giving spirit on earth too, yes?
Obviously Jesus was flesh and bone and blood on earth. However, he was also raised in the flesh and bone, and said he was not a spirit.
So obviously, as the Bible attests, Jesus is in Heaven now, and we eagerly await his return as Paul says. However, Jesus appeared to Paul and has appeared to many people (I have experienced Jesus in prayerful vision as has other Christians I know well). Yet Jesus is in Heaven, the firstborn from the dead! As He himself said, he is not just a spirit, so there is something uniquely different about him and his BODY.So anyway, WHEN did Jesus BECOME a “life giving spirit”? It could be when the Holy Spirit was given to him without measure, due to his sinlessness, which is something that did not happen to Adam.
I don't know, just thinking aloud here.
2besee,
Quote The only time I get fired up at times is on forums. I mean, in real life I have not encountered other Christians telling me or others that they are lost and not saved, have you? Being anonymous encourage people to talk more freely and I find writing on a computer aids me to keep more cool than I am by nature.
A person that tells you that you are lost or or not saved is judgmental as God is the judge. There are wiser ways to say they disagree with your words and or actions. They also need to seek a wiser heart to go with the words.
That is their choice but you are not to do as they do, even though they provoke you. Remember as long as you speak the truth in love these words are for you.
Matthew 5:11
New International Version (NIV)11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
2besee,
I do not say I am saved for the same reason I do not say I am not saved and that is because I am not the judge of that matter. Our job is to believe God loves us and wants us to be saved on that day and to strive by faith to do all he commands. The rest is up to him.
T8,
Quote “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven In the first instance create is used in Scripture the physical world is first created
Genesis 1:1
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
In the second instance create is used in Scripture the natural world is first created.
Genesis 1:21
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
In the third instance create is used in Scripture the Spiritual world is first created.
Genesis 1:27
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
A Jewish teaching that Paul, being a Jew, may well have been familiar with.
I am trying to address the angel conundrum where Jesus proposes two test to prove he was not a spirit, the same two test that angels have passed. In doing so they reveal a literal interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:50 is unsound.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 26 2013,21:40) To accept those two translation and the parallel interpretation of the words flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom would mean that Paul's word apply to Jesus and his body that was buried was not the body that was raised.
But Jesus WAS raised in the very body in which he died, Kerwin. His body still had the scars and holes. In Phil 3:21, Paul speaks about having his own lowly body transformed into a glorious new body like the one Jesus now has. And it seems obvious to me, by putting all the pieces together, that the lowly flesh body in which Jesus was raised from the dead was likewise transformed into the new glorious body he now has upon his return to heaven.The last Adam is as those of heaven, Kerwin. Paul said as much in 1 Cor 15:48.
It seems to me that you must insist that angels consist of flesh, or else your whole theory falls flat. And that last claim is just too much. Spirit beings made of flesh? No way.
(BTW, I hope you took my pot smoking comment as the joke that it was. I truly like you, and the way you talk to others here. The fact that you and I are often on opposite sides of the argument doesn't make me LIKE you any less……. even if it DOES sometimes make me roll my eyes, or want to bang my head against a wall!
)Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 27 2013,08:18) How are we to EAT HIS *FLESH* AND *DRINK* HIS BLOOD?
For you say that his flesh is *flesh and bone*.
And his blood.??
Good one.Quote (journey42 @ Sep. 26 2013,19:53) Hi Mike Thank you. You have good understanding on this subject. I'm glad that this scripture speaks to you, and you understand it perfectly. Thats wisdom Mike, to discern the scriptures because you are using common sense also, and working out that 1+1=2
This is the best thing I've heard all day
Wakeup,
Quote
How are we to EAT HIS *FLESH* AND *DRINK* HIS BLOOD?
For you say that his flesh is *flesh and bone*.
And his blood.??Literally the bread from heaven is the Spirit but speaking in another way is can be either Jesus or the words he speaks since by both the spirit is gained and lived by.
Galatians 5:19-24
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
It is either his words and his faith we must consume or his Spirit and his faith. The two are different ways of saying essentially the same thing.
Quote (2besee @ Sep. 28 2013,03:38) T8, yes, I agree that to some degree it is a mystery. Jesus is in heaven, but Jesus is also here with us in spirit. The only spirit is the Holy Spirit, which is how the Father was also in Heaven to Jesus, and in him also, through the Holy Spirit. So, the connection to Heaven is without a doubt the Holy Spirit. The first Adam became a living soul on earth, so to follow the pattern, the second Adam would have become a life giving spirit on earth too, yes?
Obviously Jesus was flesh and bone and blood on earth. However, he was also raised in the flesh and bone, and said he was not a spirit.
So obviously, as the Bible attests, Jesus is in Heaven now, and we eagerly await his return as Paul says. However, Jesus appeared to Paul and has appeared to many people (I have experienced Jesus in prayerful vision as has other Christians I know well). Yet Jesus is in Heaven, the firstborn from the dead! As He himself said, he is not just a spirit, so there is something uniquely different about him and his BODY.So anyway, WHEN did Jesus BECOME a “life giving spirit”? It could be when the Holy Spirit was given to him without measure, due to his sinlessness, which is something that did not happen to Adam.
I don't know, just thinking aloud here.
2besee,Where does Scripture actually say that Jesus is a live giving spirit?
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 28 2013,12:46) Quote (2besee @ Sep. 28 2013,03:38) T8, yes, I agree that to some degree it is a mystery. Jesus is in heaven, but Jesus is also here with us in spirit. The only spirit is the Holy Spirit, which is how the Father was also in Heaven to Jesus, and in him also, through the Holy Spirit. So, the connection to Heaven is without a doubt the Holy Spirit. The first Adam became a living soul on earth, so to follow the pattern, the second Adam would have become a life giving spirit on earth too, yes?
Obviously Jesus was flesh and bone and blood on earth. However, he was also raised in the flesh and bone, and said he was not a spirit.
So obviously, as the Bible attests, Jesus is in Heaven now, and we eagerly await his return as Paul says. However, Jesus appeared to Paul and has appeared to many people (I have experienced Jesus in prayerful vision as has other Christians I know well). Yet Jesus is in Heaven, the firstborn from the dead! As He himself said, he is not just a spirit, so there is something uniquely different about him and his BODY.So anyway, WHEN did Jesus BECOME a “life giving spirit”? It could be when the Holy Spirit was given to him without measure, due to his sinlessness, which is something that did not happen to Adam.
I don't know, just thinking aloud here.
2besee,Where does Scripture actually say that Jesus is a live giving spirit?
Kerwin,Good point in your question.
It does not say He “Is” a life giving spirit, as some claim.
1 Corinthians 15:45 says that Jesus became a life giving spirit just as Adam became a living soul.“So also it is written, The first man Adam
became a living soul. The last Adam
became a life-giving spirit”.This is the verse people use to claim that Jesus was raised spirit not flesh. But I believe taking scripture as a whole that it is referring to his life on earth.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 28 2013,04:06) 2besee, Quote The only time I get fired up at times is on forums. I mean, in real life I have not encountered other Christians telling me or others that they are lost and not saved, have you? Being anonymous encourage people to talk more freely and I find writing on a computer aids me to keep more cool than I am by nature.
A person that tells you that you are lost or or not saved is judgmental as God is the judge. There are wiser ways to say they disagree with your words and or actions. They also need to seek a wiser heart to go with the words.
That is their choice but you are not to do as they do, even though they provoke you. Remember as long as you speak the truth in love these words are for you.
Matthew 5:11
New International Version (NIV)11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
kQuote Matthew 5:11
New International Version (NIV)11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
is this scriptures not directly refers to the persecution of the faith
so not really addresses the ones that disagree with you right
not all are raffine in speech as you are K. me i see thing in a raw version black and white when i disagree i can also produce why ;
i also notices that you see the scriptures differently than i do ; you see them in a fragmented way and so interpret them in that way ;while i see them as a whole and it really bugs me at some of the conclusions some of you can take in scriptures ;
but yes i learn to keep it silence
Quote (2besee @ Sep. 28 2013,06:18) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 28 2013,12:46) Quote (2besee @ Sep. 28 2013,03:38) T8, yes, I agree that to some degree it is a mystery. Jesus is in heaven, but Jesus is also here with us in spirit. The only spirit is the Holy Spirit, which is how the Father was also in Heaven to Jesus, and in him also, through the Holy Spirit. So, the connection to Heaven is without a doubt the Holy Spirit. The first Adam became a living soul on earth, so to follow the pattern, the second Adam would have become a life giving spirit on earth too, yes?
Obviously Jesus was flesh and bone and blood on earth. However, he was also raised in the flesh and bone, and said he was not a spirit.
So obviously, as the Bible attests, Jesus is in Heaven now, and we eagerly await his return as Paul says. However, Jesus appeared to Paul and has appeared to many people (I have experienced Jesus in prayerful vision as has other Christians I know well). Yet Jesus is in Heaven, the firstborn from the dead! As He himself said, he is not just a spirit, so there is something uniquely different about him and his BODY.So anyway, WHEN did Jesus BECOME a “life giving spirit”? It could be when the Holy Spirit was given to him without measure, due to his sinlessness, which is something that did not happen to Adam.
I don't know, just thinking aloud here.
2besee,Where does Scripture actually say that Jesus is a live giving spirit?
Kerwin,Good point in your question.
It does not say He “Is” a life giving spirit, as some claim.
1 Corinthians 15:45 says that Jesus became a life giving spirit just as Adam became a living soul.“So also it is written, The first man Adam
became a living soul. The last Adam
became a life-giving spirit”.This is the verse people use to claim that Jesus was raised spirit not flesh. But I believe taking scripture as a whole that it is referring to his life on earth.
2beeQuote But I believe taking scripture as a whole that it is referring to his life on earth. how as a whole view in christ can you come to your conclusion
please quote the scriptures thanks
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 28 2013,11:17) 2besee, I do not say I am saved for the same reason I do not say I am not saved and that is because I am not the judge of that matter. Our job is to believe God loves us and wants us to be saved on that day and to strive by faith to do all he commands. The rest is up to him.
Kerwin, I also do not assume to be saved for eternity. I am talking about being saved from our previous lives of darkness. And many of us have been saved from that. Amen.
Jesus came for the lost. (Luke 19:10)Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 28 2013,11:06) 2besee, Quote The only time I get fired up at times is on forums. I mean, in real life I have not encountered other Christians telling me or others that they are lost and not saved, have you? Being anonymous encourage people to talk more freely and I find writing on a computer aids me to keep more cool than I am by nature.
A person that tells you that you are lost or or not saved is judgmental as God is the judge. There are wiser ways to say they disagree with your words and or actions. They also need to seek a wiser heart to go with the words.
That is their choice but you are not to do as they do, even though they provoke you. Remember as long as you speak the truth in love these words are for you.
Matthew 5:11
New International Version (NIV)11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
Thank you for guidance kerwin. I appreciate that.Terraricca
“So also it is written, The first man Adam
became a living soul. The last Adam
became a life-giving spirit”.When and where did Adam become a living soul?
Quote (2besee @ Sep. 28 2013,06:35) Frederica, (Ha hey, my phone wrote Frederica when I typed Terrarica).
“So also it is written, The first man Adam
became a living soul. The last Adam
became a life-giving spirit”.When and where did Adam become a living soul?
2beeyou may find it funny ,but not me ,but you show me a part of you i did not know ;
as for your question;
GE 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Mike,
Quote But Jesus WAS raised in the very body in which he died, Kerwin. His body still had the scars and holes. That is a more dramatic translation of what Scripture says in the original language as the Greeks used the same word to mean either in or on. Like Thomas demanded that he had to put his hands in Jesus' wounds before he would believe, John 20:24-25. Perhaps the translators believed he was a prophet in his unbelief. According to them Jesus was walking around in a mortally wounded body that was given life but not healed. Sounds like some type of intelligent zombie.
So let us say he had the scars, or even the unhealed wound I doubt he did, it is not evidence Jesus was an exception to what Paul teaches us about the body that is buried being different that the body that arose. He also teaches us that God gives each a body that he chooses and God can choose a scared, holey, or one we would consider marred.
Quote The last Adam is as those of heaven, Kerwin. Paul said as much in 1 Cor 15:48. 1 Corinthians 15:45-49
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Paul is speaking of dualistic nature of man, who is both an natural and a spiritual creation. Three times created is mentioned in first chapter of Genesis and each of those time speak of the first instance of a type of creation. The first is the physical, the second is the natural, and the third is the spiritual. Mankind is the spiritual and beasts are the natural one. The natural creation of man is of the earth while the spiritual creation of man gave life to the natural and comes from heaven.
It is Hebrew biblical teachings that Paul would probably know but you may not even though it is derived from Scripture.
Adam in his Spiritual state is from heaven but he fell from that state.
Quote It seems to me that you must insist that angels consist of flesh, or else your whole theory falls flat. And that last claim is just too much. Spirit beings made of flesh? No way. I am claiming angels are not spirits as spirits can be neither touch or eat while angels can do both. I am not claiming they are flesh as Scripture merely seems to hint at that.
It is simple to see that if spirits can either be touched or eat then Jesus failed to prove he was not a spirit.
A point of fact is that when the disciples thought he was a spirit they were said to suffer from unbelief. You believe in a teaching that those who adhere to it would hold the same thoughts those disciples did when they were said to suffer from unbelief.
Quote (BTW, I hope you took my pot smoking comment as the joke that it was. I truly like you, and the way you talk to others here. The fact that you and I are often on opposite sides of the argument doesn't make me LIKE you any less……. even if it DOES sometimes make me roll my eyes, or want to bang my head against a wall! )I saw no reason to be offended by your comment though I did think it was silly at the time. The only drug is God and do to my resistance to him I also require his gift of the interface between me and posting to keep a great share of undiplomatic nonsense and extraneous information out of my posts.
Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 28 2013,06:52) Quote (2besee @ Sep. 28 2013,06:35) Frederica, (Ha hey, my phone wrote Frederica when I typed Terrarica).
“So also it is written, The first man Adam
became a living soul. The last Adam
became a life-giving spirit”.When and where did Adam become a living soul?
2beeyou may find it funny ,but not me ,but you show me a part of you i did not know ;
as for your question;
GE 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Terrarica,Loosen up and enjoy life at times. The spellcheckers on phones are not intelligent and they do silly things. I have no clue what it thinks my name should be spelled. Federica sounds like a wild guess.
Paul actually said all he was saying was written in the Old Testament. Where do you believe the fact that the last Adam is a life given spirit comes from in the OT?
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