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T8:
In my posts I comprehensively covered the topic under discussion, comparing scripture with scripture, and being led I believe by the Holy Spirit. It is my practise to seek the face of the Lord in understanding the Scriptures.
While I agree with you regarding Jesus preexisting Abraham I am confirmed in my understanding. I quoted just three of a number of respectable commentaries who also interpret John 8:58 the same and I had read these before responding to your previous post. We will just have to agree to disagree on this.
I think it would be more profitable, if we are to continue conversing, that you answer your own questions first, stating your beliefs I.e.
Who is Jesus to you (in one paragraph)?
Can I ask you if you truly believe these words of Jesus (in John 17:3)?
Think about what Jesus is communicating here (in John 17:20-22)?
And about this oneness you mention:
“I and the Father are one”. Does this mean they are the same being or God?
Berean,
T8 is not asking you to prove any one single point of what you believe.
But is instead asking you to give a brief summery of what you believe.
Detail can always be looked into to see if any of your claims are true.I’ll answer his question to show you it is not at all difficult.
1. Jesus was conceived in the flesh: by Mary, his mother – and God’s HolySpirit, his father.
2. Jesus was born as “the Spirit of Christ” born Bethlehem, which came from everlasting.
3. Jesus claims to be “THE” “Son of God”.
4. God himself confirming Jesus is God’s Son, through a voice at baptism by John the baptist.Conclusion:
Jesus was the “Son of God” from birth to death.See, now was that hard? NO!
____________
God bless
Ed JBerean,
You should clarify what you believe – so that belief
can be considered in any point you’re trying to make.Berean, please watch this video to gain some insight into what the bible actually teaches:
“Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.” (Revelation 4:8)
.T8,and ALL,
YOU: No, it just means one in unity with God and of course we know that we will share in this divine nature and
will still not be God.
ME: I know that not all of you would agree with me, but that’s not my problem! Thus humbly, as I believe
I AM BEING GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT IN MANY WAYS AND MEANS, allow me please,, to give you a CLEARER PICTURE, which I believe is the TRUTH :
God Almighty is a spirit.
And as a Spirit, He never is going to become visible. NEVER!
Only Jesus Christ is in the position to MANIFEST God Almighty IN FLESH! NOW and on the last day of the Lord.
John 16:25 These things I have spoken to you in proverbs. The hour cometh when I will no longer speak to you in proverbs but will show you
plainly of the Father.
A STATE MANIFESTED FOR HIS OWN GLORY BEFORE ANYTHING WAS EVER CREATED DOMINATING THE ENTIRE INFINITE EXISTENCE!
Now, Before anything was ever created God ALMIGHTY, was the external element in His glory on His own, one substance
IN THE FATHER, POWER.
IN THE SON, Jesus, WISDOM as a spirit in the core of God ALMIGHTY, precisely God’s HEART, and between Jesus and God the Father as LOVE is
THE HOLY SPIRIT, who UNIFIES THE FATHER and THE SON into
ONE TRIUNE GOD AD INTRA, WITHIN GOD! ONE SUBSTANCE!
ONE CONSISTENT FULL HARMONY NO MATTER WHAT THE STATE IS
AD EXTRA OUTSIDE GOD! CREATION!
GOD IS ALWAYS IN FULL GLORY! AND IN A STATE OF LOVE! NEVER UPSET, NEVER WRATHS, NEVER ANGRY WITH WHAT
HE CREATES IN FULL LOVE HIMSELF AD EXTRA! DESPITE SCRIPTURES SAY SO! Simply as God, IN SCRIPTURES refers to Himself and EXPRESSES His state ONLY in relation to our STATE and UNDERSTANDING.
Now These three MOST FUNDAMENTAL ATTRIBUTES/ spirit elements of God.
POWER, LOVE, and WISDOM are never separated, despite they seemed to us creatures that THEY ARE! Thus
THE FATHER, THE HOLY SPIRIT, and THE SON ARE ONE GOD IN ESSENCE, eternally AT ALL TIMES EVEN WHEN THEY ARE SEPARATED
ONLY FOR THE SAKE OF GOD’S WORK IN CREATION!
This is manifested in ALL THE SPIRITS WHICH EMANATE FROM GOD.
THOU ONE SPIRIT EMANATES FROM GOD IT IS ALWAYS TRIUNE IN ITSELF, POWER, WISDOM, and LOVE,
BOTH AD INTRA and AD EXTRA! IN THE SAME WAY
WE ARE TRIUNE IN
SPIRIT, SOUL, and FLESH! Now once we corrupted ourselves we lost UNIFICATION with God.
Jesus despite He became man HE NEVER LOST HIS DIVINITY AT ANY TIME EVEN WHEN DEAD IN HIS TOMB!
Jesus task generally speaking though in ALL THINGS LIKE US, He was totally DIFFERENT.
A PERFECT PARADOX!
Now all the above is only while God did not yet create ANYTHING!
When God OPTED to COMMENCE His creation AD EXTRA! TOTALLY DISTINCT FROM HIMSELF AND IN THE SAME INSTANT TOTALLY
ONE SUBSTANCE WITH AND IN HIMSELF NO MATTER WHAT! SIMPLY FOR THE SAKE OF THE FREE WILL OF CREATURES.
LIKE WE ARE AS CREATURES! HE DID SO WITH
THE KINGDOM OF HIS SON, ALL IN HIS SON, ALL THE ENTIRE CREATION CRAMMED IN THE MOST
UNFATHOMABLE VERSATILE SPIRIT OF JESUS CHRIST!
THE SPIRIT OF THE SON!
Galatians 4:6 And because you are sons, God hath sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying: Abba, Father.
God, simply at the VERY END WILL ESTABLISH ALL creatures without distinction in the highest SPIRITUAL state as
CHILDREN OF GOD, ALREADY ACHIEVED IN JESUS CHRIST.
ALL IN THE SON, SPIRIT, SOUL, and FLESH! ONE SUBSTANCE!
THUS GOD IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE HIS KINGDOM AD EXTRA, SWAPPED THE TRIUNE STATE!
THE SON WISDOM, BECAME THE EXTERNAL ELEMENT, THE FATHER, POWER, BECAME THE CORE, THE HEART OF THE SON, and THE HOLY SPIRIT LOVE
REMAINED BETWEEN THE SON AND THE FATHER!
IN THIS STATE THE FATHER, POWER, CREATES AND CONTROL ALL THROUGHOUT WITHOUT BEING CONTAMINATED BY THE LEAST IMPERFECTION FROM CREATURES, AND ALSO IN THE SAME TIME ALLOW ALL CREATURES THEIR OWN FREE WILL, EVEN TO BECOME
HIS ENEMY! ACCORDING AND IN RELATION TO HIS POWER!
ALL THIS IS POSSIBLE BY
ONE SPIRIT!
“THE WORD” Jesus, the Son of Man. SIMPLY AS FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, GOD ENGRAFTED HIS ACTUAL WORD ONE SUBSTANCE AT ALL COSTS WITH CREATURES AS ETERNAL LIFE!
GOD SIMPLY POURED THE SPIRIT OF THE SON AS AN INFINITESIMAL SPIRIT IN EVERY CREATURES’HEART.
BY WHICH TASK GOD IN THE CORE OF JESUS’ SPIRIT BECAME
BOTH WEAK AND AT THE SAME TIME MOST POWERFUL THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE INFINITE EXISTENCE AD EXTRA!
IN THE SAME WAY, AS HE IS AD INTRA!
Now to you point T8.
YOU: will still not be God.
WRONG, WRONG, and WRONG!
FROM GOD’S SIDE POINT OF VIEW
WE ARE GODS ALREADY!
From the cross, ON JESUS’DEATH, GOD IN
JESUS CHRIST!
THE ENTIRE CREATION, THE KINGDOM OF THE SON OF HIS LOVE EMBODIED IN
THE SON OF GOD! ESTABLISHED HIMSELF
GODMAN!
THIS GODMAN, JESUS CHRIST, RULED ON EARTH AS HE SEEMED FIT IN GOD’S OWN WILL FOR FORTY DAYS! Thus He
FURNISHED HIS SPIRIT AND RESURRECTED JESUS’DEAD BODY!
JESUS CHRIST THE DIVINE NATURE OF JESUS, RESURRECTED,
JESUS DEAD BODY, THE HUMAN NATURE OF JESUS! WITH A DIFFERENCE AS THIS DEAD BODY,
CAME BACK TO LIFE EMBODIED WITH THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, EX SATAN’S PROPERTY,
WHEN JESUS’ INFINITESIMAL SPIRIT ORIGINALLY
SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD. Rev.13:8 ENGRAFTED IN ALL CREATURES’ HEART BECAME
ALIVE ON JESUS’ DEATH, THUS ON THE THIRD DAY
“THE WORD” Jesus, The Son of Man, as a spirit, through BILOCATION, COLLECTED FROM ALL THE DEAD,
spiritually dead, both in hell and on earth, ENTERED
JESUS’DEAD BODY AND GAVE IT LIFE! THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE BORN AGAIN IN JESUS BODY! The man born again John3:3
JESUS RESURRECTED HIMSELF!
That same day precisely at 6 in the evening; EVENING and MORNING ONE DAY. JESUS’DEAD BODY INTEGRATED WITH
THE HOLY GHOST IN JESUS CHRIST; the entire human race ONE SUBSTANCE WITH JESUS CHRIST!
GODMAN, and JESUS CHRIST became
GOD OF ALL FLESH! Believe it or not it’s your pigeon!
THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE GODS IN JESUS CHRIST!
THE KINGDOM OF THE SON ALL
CHILDREN OF GOD! in
OUR LORD GOD AND FATHER
JESUS CHRIST.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
And about this oneness you mention:
“I and the Father are one”. Does this mean they are the same being or God?
I made it clear in my post that it is speaking of two or more becoming one in unity. Not one as in the same being.
As for me asking the question about Jesus, I am simply asking who you think Jesus is. It should require less than 2 minutes of your time to articulate that. I will answer after you have and we can discuss any differences.
Imagine if Jesus asked you that question. Be honest.
t8,
Regarding this post:
LU quoting the theses:
In conclusion, then, I submit that the most likely meaning that may be assigned to Paul’s expression o& qeoV” tou~ ai*w~no” is that by it he was referring to the God of Paul’s Judeo- Christian heritage, and not to the devil. This conclusion is to be preferred because it is exegetically sound, traditionally attested, theologically uncomplicated, and missiologically significant.
t8: So LU. You can say with confidence that your God is the God of this age.
I’m not going to dispute that this is your God, but will leave it with you to think about.
Did you even look at the thesis that I linked to this quote? I would be surprised if you walked away from it still thinking that the theos of the world is not the God of the universe.
Here it is just for you: https://open.uct.ac.za/bitstream/handle/11427/16936/thesis_hum_2015_poobalan_ivor_gerard.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
BTW, t8, I find it kind of strange that you are so willing to believe that Paul would all of the sudden call satan the “god of this world” when you completely dispute Jesus as being called theos in John 1:1 even when claiming to believe that all things were made by Him.
Hi Lu,
YOU: Jesus is God in us, we are not god in Jesus. Big difference.
NO, NO, and NO!
That’s HALF TRUTH!
John15:4 Abide in me: and I in you.
As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you,
unless you abide in me.
5I am the vine: you the branches.
He that abideth in me, and I in him,
the same beareth much fruit:
for without me you can do nothing.
John17:21 That they all may be one,
as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee;
(I IN THEM, AND THEY IN ME)
that they also may be one in us:
that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
23:I in them, and thou in me:
that they may be made perfect in one:(JESUS CHRIST)
and the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me.
John14:20, In that day you shall know that I am in my Father:
and you in me, and I in you.
Peace and Love in Jesus Christ
Hi Carmel,
I know that we are in Christ but not as gods abiding in him. I would have to study it more as far as what specific way we are in him. I do know that we are in him like he is our strong tower of protection and we are in his hands, completely dependent on him to cover us with his righteousness, etc.
BTW, t8, I find it kind of strange that you are so willing to believe that Paul would all of the sudden call satan the “god of this world” when you completely dispute Jesus as being called theos in John 1:1 even when claiming to believe that all things were made by Him.s
It’s as strange as believing that the Father is God and the father of lies is not God. In other words not strange.
I didn’t look at the thesis and do not need to. Any thesis that changes the Father from being the one true God to being the Father of God, the Son of God, and the Spirit of God is only trying to coax people with smooth words. I have little time for such things. About as much time as I have for the Mormon bible for example.
As I said before declare your beliefs first then we will continue further discussion.
Okay I will. So far I have ascertained that you were not prepared to give the answer in and out of season. So I will get the ball rolling and provide the season for you.
Jesus is the Son of God. He is the Christ.
Your turn.
BTW, usually what happens is we are entitled to ask any reasonable question and get an answer from anyone who brings a teaching here. Then you are entitled to ask a question upon answering your question. This is to avoid people dodging questions with another question. The motive is to allow clarity and to test, and to ultimately find the truth.
T8:
Question: Who is Jesus to you (in one paragraph)?
Your Answer: Jesus is the Son of God. He is the Christ.
My Answer: I agree with that statement as far as it goes but the follow on from that is your next question
You asked: “I and the Father are one”. Does this mean they are the same being or God?
What is your answer to your own question?
It seems from a comment LightenUp made you don’t believe the Son of God is God or maybe you are saying the Son of God is not God the Father, who, the latter, it seems you are implying is the one true God and that there is some kind of unity between the one true God (the Father) and Jesus the Son of God and the Christ.
Some clarity here would help so I might better understand your position and belief.
I feel that your answer is not the most honest one that you could have given. Yes I believe that you believe he is the Son of God and Christ because it is written, but I suspect your confession would have included other things that perhaps are more important. Like saying that he is God for example. Is that correct? Some clarity on this would be helpful.
My answer was very honest because I truly believe with all my heart that he is the son of God and the Christ. I believe it not only because it is written, but deeply believe it theologically. This impacts how I see many other things.
Now for the clarity that you asked for about the Son of God being God?
When you are ‘of’ something, clearly you are not that thing, rather you would be an offspring. You cannot be ‘of’ and be the source as well.
Jesus is either the Son of God or is God. If the latter, then he must be the Son of himself if he is both.
Hi T8:
T8 Jesus said “I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly” and John said he wrote his Gospel “that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you might have life through his name”. Again both in John 17 and 1 John 1 the purpose of God is that we know him and have fellowship with the Father and his Son Jesus Christ.
This is my interest in discussions with others not principally theological or academic discussions.
So bearing that in mind I would appreciate it if you did impugn my honesty. You said in your last post “I feel that your answer is not the one you would have given in your most honest state. Yes I believe that you believe he is the Son of God and Christ, but I suspect your confession wouldn’t have been that exactly“.
If you reread my previous post I clearly said “I agree with that statement AS FAR AS IT GOES” thus implying there is more to Jesus that what you stated.
I also asked you for clarity on who you are saying Jesus is. Your reply simply stated received that he is the Son “of “ God and therefore cannot be God because God cannot be the Son of Himself. Can you please give more clarification on what that means to you concerning his being, person, substance, existence, character, attributes etc and also who God is in your understanding.
You may remember I made the following comment in the last post “It seems from a comment LightenUp made you don’t believe the Son of God is God or maybe you are saying the Son of God is not God the Father, who, the latter, it seems you are implying is the one true God and that there is some kind of unity between the one true God (the Father) and Jesus the Son of God and the Christ”.
It would be very helpful, and I would appreciate it, if you could be clearer in what you believe so we don’t talk at cross purposes.
1. Jesus was conceived in the flesh: by Mary, his mother – and God’s HolySpirit, his father.
2. Jesus was born as “the Spirit of Christ” born Bethlehem, which came from everlasting.
3. Jesus claims to be “THE” “Son of God”.
4. God himself confirming Jesus is God’s Son, through a voice at baptism by John the baptist.Conclusion:
Jesus was the “Son of God” from birth to death.Your Answer: Jesus is the Son of God. He is the Christ.
/
You (T8) may remember I made the following comment in the last post “It seems from a comment LightenUp made you (T8) don’t believe the Son of God is God or maybe you are saying the Son of God is not God the Father, who, the latter, it seems you are implying is the one true God and that there is some kind of unity between the one true God (the Father) and Jesus the Son of God and the Christ”.It would be very helpful, and I would appreciate it, if you could be clearer in what you believe so we don’t talk at cross purposes.
Hi Pilgrim,
You appear to be intentionally avoiding my post, which (I believe) answers this query.
Since I too read what you write to others, please respond to my post.After all: this is a public forum, and we are all here to establish truth, are we not?
____________
God bless
Ed JNote: this post and the next two posts were to you Pilgrim. (top of page)
(I mistakenly addressed them to Berean)
If you reread my previous post I clearly said “I agree with that statement AS FAR AS IT GOES” thus implying there is more to Jesus that what you stated.
Good. We both know there is not enough books in the world that could record what Jesus is and did. So I can take it that you answer reflects that this is what you really believe, Jesus as the messiah and son, and that Jesus being God is not imperative. So long as we hold that he is the son of God and the messiah, then you agree that is the requirement as far as what we believe about Jesus.
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