Born and begotten

[Jodi]

Hi Pilgrim,

This is very simple and clear,

FIRST you have David’s son and THEN YHVH becomes a Father unto him. 

1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:

And as Isaiah 11 teaches FIRST you have a son of Jesse and THEN YHVH rests His Spirit upon him, where in Isaiah 61 this is called his ANOINTING. 

[Jodi]

Hi Pilgrim,

Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 

Joint-heirs with Christos (ANOINTED)

Now how can Jesus be Christos (anointed) without first having YHVH come upon him to anoint (Chrio) him? Not possible. First comes Chrio and by such you become the Christos, and it’s said by Jesus that YHVH’s Spirit is upon him.  

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, BECAUSE he hath anointed (Chrio TO ANOINT) me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

We are to inherit the Spirit of YHVH, such makes us children of YHVH, a joint heir with Christ (the anointed with the Spirit of YHVH), glorified together. 

Jesus is the son of David and is YHVH’s Son according to the Spirit by his resurrection from the dead. (Beginning of Romans 1)

Jesus was raised from the dead said to have received the promised Holy Spirit (Acts 2:33), said to be begotten by God on that day (Acts 13:33), said to be a first begotten of the dead, said to be the firstborn of many brethren. Also Paul says that Jesus was the first human raised from the dead according to an order.

If we are joint heirs with Christ (the anointed of the Spirit), said to be children of YHVH by the Spirit bearing witness to our spirit, how is it not obvious to you according to scripture, that the mortal Jesus receiving God’s Spirit upon his anointing equated him to be a Son of God?

He was certainly the only mortal man, the son of David, to have been begotten of the Spirit not by measure being filled with grace and truth. 

We are JOINT HEIRS, and Paul likewise says in Romans 8 that those who are LED by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God. The son of Jesse was promised to be raised up in righteousness to have God direct all of his ways. THAT MAKES him a Son of God. 

FIRST you have the son of David, THEN you have God make him into His own Son, and He made him into His own Son by anointing him with His Spirit, whereby the Spirit was a witness to his spirit that he was a child of God, whereby he was led by the Spirit of God and thus was a Son of God. He became an heir to God’s Spirit. 

 

[Pilgrim]

Hi Jodi,

Re: Root and Stem
The first thing we should remember in our discussions on scripture is that the NT Apostles and prophets had a “dispensation of the grace of God” and received truth “by revelation” concerning things in “other ages that were not made known unto the sons of men”. Their understanding therefore, by that grace and revelation, should be paramount in gaining an understanding of the OT.

The second thing to note is that I don’t rely just on the use of the word “root” to establish the preexistence Of the one to come known as the Messiah, the Branch etc. We have referenced many of those other scripture many times. In addition to precise scriptures showing the preexistence of He who is the WORD, I see a number of what are called a Christophany and places where the incarnate Word is pre-figured in Old Testament prophecies.

Now as to “root”. As you rightly said “root” in the NT is the Greek word “rhiza” and in the OT as “sheresh”. However your application of its meaning lacks accuracy and consistency.

Of the 17 times this word is used in the NT its meaning equates to foundation or source. In all the following examples “root” can be replace with “foundation(s)” or “source” giving the meaning of the text(s):
The “axe is laid unto the root (foundation) of the trees” (e.g. Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9).
“They were scorched; and because they had no root (foundation), they withered away” (Matthew 13:6,21; Mark 4:6,17; Luke 8:13).
“And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots (foundations/source).” Mark 11:20.
“If the root (foundation/source) be holy, so are the branches” (Romans 11:16).
” partake of the root (foundation/source) and fatness of the olive tree;” (Romans 11:17).
“Thou bearest not the root (foundation), but the root (foundation) thee.” Romans 11:18.
“For the love of money is the/a root (source/foundation) of all evil” (1 Timothy 6:10).
“Lest any root (source) of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;” (Hebrews 12:15).

Applying this consistent meaning we would see in Revelation 5:5 the Lion is described as the Root Of David i.e. the Foundation, origin, source from whom David arose. Likewise with Revelation 22:16.

This leads us to Romans 15:12 where Paul uses “Root (rhiza)” Of Jesse quoting from Isaiah 11:10. Again the same consistent application of “rhiza” would confirm that the meaning here is “source, origin, foundation”.

We see this same consistency of use with “sheresh” in the OT. In Isaiah 11:10 it was prophesied that “in that day” I.e. the day “They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea” there shall be a “root (sheresh)” of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious”, I.e. He being an ensign for Jew and Gentile.

In the 33 times in the OT that “sheresh” is used it is best understood in a similar way as in the NT, i.e. as that from which one comes/grows, as its source or foundation, that which lies underneath. Here are just a few examples:
“Among you a root (source) that bears gall and wormwood” (Deut 29:18).
“And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall yet again take root (foundation) downward, and bear fruit upward.” (2 Kings 19:30).
“His roots (foundations) shall be dried up beneath, and above shall his branch be cut off.” (Job 18:16).
“You prepared room before it, and did cause it to take deep root, and it filled the land.” (Psalms 80:9).
“And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots (Jesse’s source):” Isaiah 11:1
“roots (foundation)thereof were under him” (Ezekiel 17:6).
“But out of a branch of her roots shall one stand up in his estate” (Daniel 11:7).

In both OT and NT we get a consistent understanding that “Root” means that from which Jesse and David came, their foundations, their source, what lay underneath them from which they grew. We know this one was a being, who was to come as the Branch, the Arm Of the Lord, the Messiah etc.

I do not wish to have disputes over words in future as striving about words is unprofitable. On this occasion I have only undertaken a short word study, simply to demonstrate to you that you are plucking out a meaning of scriptural words to suit your argument, rather than seeing them in their context and interpreting them in a way that is consistent with their use/translation throughout scripture. It seems clear to me your interpretation of words and phrases in scripture demonstrate a misinterpretation devised simply to support your theological position, but not theTruth.

[Ed J]

Hi T8,

Jodi unfortunately refuses to acknowledge the plain meaning of text in scripture
but instead has to manipulate it to fit in to a predetermined theological position she holds.

Bingo Pilgrim, here is a classic example of her doing exactly what you say:

“ye are even my witnesses.
Is there ‘a God’ beside me? yea,
there is “no God”; I know not any.” (Isaiah 44:8)

Quote from Jodi:

“Scripture “directly tells us” that YHVH made Jesus a god…” – Jodi

Taken from page 2 #post-864024 of the god-of-gods-and-lord-of-lords thread

Which (after I proved her WRONG!) she adjusted to this:

Hi Ed J,

Okay I will rephrase,

Scripture directly TEACHES us that as YHVH made Moses a god, He likewise made Jesus a god.

Jesus directly TEACHES us that God calls him a god because the word of God came to him.

[GeneBalthrop]

Pilgram…….Why do you people have to go through these  long excersise to try to give us a different meaning of root? We all know what it mean when something comes “from” a root, go look at a plant and see, that a stem comes from the roots and that root is the source of it’s comming forth and it is physically part of the tree it came from.  It does not take a genius to understand that. The only reason you take this long path to a simple understanding,   is to twist up it simple meaning , to fit you false and distorted  mean of what scripture and  Jesus meant.

Jodi and I gave you a apsolute clear meaning of the word root, even from scripture telling you clearly it’s meaning,  but you and others completely disregard those  “simple” yet clear scriptural truth. This only  shows how actually corrupt you thinking is, you can’t even accept it or even acknowledge it correctly,  if it doesn’t fit your understanding you people go down this long twisted trail to make it fit your screwed up teachibgs somehow,   How sad.  

Everyone should know what it means by the term roots, is means where a person comes from. Jesus came from the root of Jesse who was from the root of the Tribe of  Judah. King David was from that same root, and Jesus was his own  offspring.  So Jesus said he was from the root “and” offspring of David”. That was his “origins”, where he came from.  You people have to be completely blind if you can’t even understand that.  Truth is it completely destroy your false teachings  about who Jesus is and where he came from.  No trinitarian or prexistener can accept that simple and clearly written scripture. “It” completely destroys your and Satan’s  whole “DOCTRINE OF SEPERATION”, you people falsely preach. Trying to make Jesus out to be something other then a human being is not only a “LIE” ,  it is against the whole work of God the Fathers purpose for the “anointed man”, “Christ Jesus”.

Scripture say also “clearly”, “unto us there is “one” God, and “one” mediator between men and God, the “MAN” Jesus Christ”.  And again out of Jesus ‘ own mouth,  “that they might know you, the “ONLY” TRUE GOD, and Jesus (the man), who you have sent. 

And again, scripture tells us this,  “God is “NOT” a man, that he should “LIE” or a “son of man” that he should repent”. but Jesus is called a “Son of man” around 80 times in scripture as I recall. What is amazing to me and Jodi is that you people can’t even put those simple but clear scriptures together and find out the error of you false teachings. Now that’s what is amazing to us. 

Why do you people avoid these scriptures,  like the plague,   Is it not that they completely destroy your “false” teachings, so you avoid them completely? Why not deal with each one of them for a change?

Peace and love to you all and yours. ……gene

 

[Pilgrim]

Gene,

The “Lion of the tribe of Juda” IS “the root of David” he didn’t come from the root of David. “I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star”.

Always best to read scripture correctly.

[Lightenup]

Pilgrim,

Good point that you made to Gene about how Gene changes the word “is the root” to “from the root.”

I was thinking the same thing!

LU

[carmel]

 

Hi Lu,

YOU: Satan is NOT the god of this age who blinds the hearts of the unbelieving to the glory of the gospel of Christ.

I am going to respect Edj, and T8 and be as concise as possible.

Lu, read this scripture hereunder:

1John5:21Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Lu, just for the argument

HOW MANY IDOLS ARE THERE IN THIS WORLD?

Or if the above question is rather complicated,

WHAT ARE IDOLS? 

 

Peace and love in Jesus Christ

[Jodi]

Hi Pilgrim and All,

Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

2 Timothy 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ OF the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: 9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

OF– EK, OUT OF, FROM

A seed represents offspring, when the seed germinates the first thing it does is create the primary ROOT. 

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:… …10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Jesus is clearly identified as a root that comes out of Jesse. Jesus is the seed of Jesse and thus from there he forms a ROOT. The root is an anchor for the seed.

Romans 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

root – Rhiza,

a root
that which like a root springs from a root, a sprout, shoot
metaph. offspring, progeny

A seed OF David is most certainly a root OF David. Without David there is no seed, and without the seed there is no root, there is no Jesus. Matthew 1 tells us directly that the GENESIS of Jesus is by him being the son of David. 

Pilgrim, again I will say that according to God’s word, FIRST you have a son of David, and THEN God makes him into His own Son, why we read in Luke 1 that Jesus before he is born is already said to be the son of David and that he will be great and that he WILL BE called the Son of the Highest. Likewise why Paul says that Jesus is a Son of God according to what God spoke afore by the prophets, he was MADE OF the seed of David and declared to be a Son of God ACCORDING to the Spirit by His resurrection from the dead. 

 

 

[Pilgrim]

Hi Jodi,

I have gone through OT and NT scriptures showing you the use of the term ROOT. I am not going over the same ground again and again.

As to when Jesus called God His Father, He was doing it at the age of 12.

Take another scripture you wrongly interpret. “Abraham rejoiced to see” Christ’s day: “and he saw it, and was glad.”  “Then said the Jews unto him, You art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him” (John 8:56-59).

The Jews understood what Jesus was claiming and that is why they tried to kill him as a blasphemer. Not only does this scripture show the “who”, the person,  Jesus is (not a purpose or plan or will or prediction) but the personage of Christ, but it shows He was alive IN/AT Abraham’s time, but even more He was actually in existence BEFORE his time and yet even more Jesus is claiming to be that I AM that spoke to Moses “And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.”  (Exo 3:14).

This claim rocked the world of the Jews to whom he was speaking, and should give us pause. He said that he existed before Abraham who had died perhaps 2000 years prior to Jesus of Nazareth. He also equated himself to God, taking the holy name that God revealed to Moses in the burning bush (Exodus 3:14), and which was so holy that the people of Jesus’ day would not even utter it out loud.

The last part of John 8:59 is one of the saddest scriptures: Jesus leaves the temple. The Son of God, through whom the whole universe was made, comes to his own, should have been the object of their worship. He came to fulfill the whole Law. He came to take the throne of David, to be Abraham’s seed to whom the promises were made, to be the Woman’s seed, to be the Prophet like Moses, to fulfill all the prophecies concerning Him in the OT, to be among God’s people, He was the tabernacling of God among men, and yet he had no place in the Temple (HIS Temple -Malachi 3:1) which was dedicated to the God who sent him. “He came to his own and his own received him not”.

How tragic that today people still reject the Lord from Heaven and treat HIM as merely a Man, howbeit a Spirit filled Man. On your own reckoning if God is Spirit and Jesus had the full measure of Tod the Spirit then Jesus is both divine and human.

Both God’s messenger, who prepared the way before Christ (John the Baptist) and “the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even THE MESSENGER of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.”  (Mal 3:1), yes both these testify that Christ as a being existed before Their own physical manifestation.

Jesus is the eternal I AM. He was and is and is to come. He left the earthly temple, but he will be eternally present with his people, who are the true Temple – those who call upon him in faith. This eighth “I am” statement of Jesus recorded in John’s gospel establishes him as our Lord and God. He is our Redeemer and Friend, the source and center of all truth.

[Lightenup]

Hi Carmel,

You said:

Hi Lu,

YOU: Hi Carmel,

Please clarify:

Do you believe that Jesus is satan in some way?

Lu, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS

YOU, THOUGH A FEMALE, IN SOME WAY?

Keep in mind that JESUS (MALE AND FEMALE)is not quite the same as

JESUS CHRIST!

FOR INSTANCE:

WE ARE DEFINITELY

ALL IN JESUS AND

JESUS IS IN ALL OF US!

BUT I BET WE STILL HAVE A LONG LONG, LONG WAY TO GO TO BE

CHRISTS LIKE
Peace and Love in Jesus Christ

Can you please answer this question with a simple yes or no? Don’t answer the question with a question.

Do you believe that Jesus is satan in some way?

 

 

[Lightenup]

Carmel,

Read this to answer what are idols:

Holman Bible Dictionary
Idol

Physical or material image or form representing a reality or being considered divine and thus an object of worship. In the Bible various terms are used to refer to idols or idolatry: “image”, either graven (carved) or cast, “statue,” “abomination.” Both Testaments condemn idols, but with idols the Old Testament expresses more concern than the New, probably reflecting the fact that the threat of idolatry was more pronounced for the people of the Old Testament.

The ancient Hebrews lived in a world filled with idols. Egyptians represented their deities in various human-animal forms. Similarly, the various Mesopotamian cultures used idol representations of their deities, as did the Hittites in ancient Asia Minor. More of a threat to Hebrew worship were the Canaanite Baal and Asherah fertility images, some of which are commonly found in excavations. Use of idols in worship continued to be commonplace in Greek and Roman religion.

One of the prominent distinguishing features of biblical religion is its ideal of imageless worship. Clearly expressed in the decalogue is the command: “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them” (Exodus 20:4-5 ). This is usually interpreted to be a negative statement concerning idols but with positive implications toward the spiritual worship desired by God.

Idols were a problem of long standing. The first rebellion of the Hebrews centered around the golden calf made under Aaron’s leadership in the wilderness (Exodus 32:1). The bronze serpent illustrates the Hebrews’ propensity for idol worship. Moses set it up in the wilderness to allay a plague of serpents (Numbers 21:1 ), but Israel retained it and made it an object of worship (2 Kings 18:4 ). Joshua called on the people to put away the gods their fathers had served in Mesopotamia and in Egypt (Joshua 24:14 ). Perhaps a misguided King Jeroboam intended to represent Yahweh by the gold calves set up in his temples at Bethel and Dan when he led the northern tribes to secede from the kingdom inherited by Rehoboam (1 Kings 12:28-33 ).

Biblical writers often denounced idolatry. None is more graphic and devastating than that in Isaiah 44:9-20 . The idol is made by a workman but is powerless to sustain the workman to complete his task. Further, the idol begins as a leftover piece of a tree from which a person makes a god. He then worships no more than a block of wood.

Many scholars believe that the threat of idolatry was much less in the Jewish community after the Babylonian Exile and that it continued to be diminished though still present throughout New Testament times. The most noted problem in the New Testament concerns the propriety of eating meat which has previously been offered to an idol (1 Corinthians 8-10 ). Paul seemingly broadened the scope of idolatry for Christianity when he identified covetousness with idolatry (Colossians 3:5 ).

https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/hbd/i/idol.html

 

[Lightenup]

Jodi,

The Son of God was anointed to be the Messiah before he was sent to be born of Mary.

Luke 2

25And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. 27And he came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to carry out for Him the custom of the Law, 28then he took Him into his arms, and blessed God, and said,

29“Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace,
According to Your word;

 30For my eyes have seen Your salvation,

      31Which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples,

      32A LIGHT OF REVELATION TO THE GENTILES,
            And the glory of Your people Israel.”

33And His father and mother were amazed at the things which were being said about Him. 34And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed—

Jesus was a new baby when he was recognized as the anointed one of the Lord, Jodi.

[Proclaimer]

Take another scripture you wrongly interpret. “Abraham rejoiced to see” Christ’s day: “and he saw it, and was glad.”  “Then said the Jews unto him, You art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him” (John 8:56-59).

The Jews understood what Jesus was claiming and that is why they tried to kill him as a blasphemer. Not only does this scripture show the “who”, the person,  Jesus is (not a purpose or plan or will or prediction) but the personage of Christ, but it shows He was alive IN/AT Abraham’s time, but even more He was actually in existence BEFORE his time and yet even more Jesus is claiming to be that I AM that spoke to Moses “And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.”  (Exo 3:14).

Hi Pilgrim. I’m not fully onboard with this here is why.

Yes I agree what you say here about Jesus preceded Abraham. Certainly the Jews understood the implication of what he was saying here by their response: “You art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham”. And of course they reacted with the utmost offence by trying to stone him.

But I do not believe that he was claiming to be the ‘I am’ of the Old Testament here nor that the Jews thought this. Here’s why.

If the Jesus claimed to be God, then they wouldn’t have bother being offended by saying he was before Abraham because being God would imply that and much more. Claiming to be God would be the ultimate offense and they would have complained about that. Simply put, comparing being before Abraham with being God himself is the difference between a log and plank. You would go straight for the log and not bother with the plank or tooth pick.

Further, saying ‘I am’ does not equate one with God anywhere in the New Testament. “I am” is a translation from Greek words “ego eimi”. Is the mere utterance of “ego eimi” a blasphemy? Does the use of “ego eimi” automatically identify the speaker as Yahweh, the I AM? In Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel said, “Ego eimi Gabriel.” In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Jesus said, “Ego eimi.” In Acts 10:21, Peter said, “Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek.” Obviously, the mere use of “ego eimi” does not equate one to the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14.

Jesus used the phrase “ego eimi” at least twenty times and yet, in only one instance did the Jews seek to stone him (John 8:58). Jesus said, “I am the bread of life” to a large crowd, in John.6:35-48, yet no one opposed him. In verse 41, the Jews murmured because he said, “I am (ego eimi) the bread which came down from heaven.” But in verse 42, the Jews questioned only the phrase, “I came down from heaven” and ignored “ego eimi.” The same is true of verses 51 & 52

In John 8:12, 18, 24, & 28, Jesus used “ego eimi” with Pharisees present (vs.13) and yet, no stoning. He, again, used it four times in John 10:7, 9, 11, & 14 with no stoning. Jesus said to his disciples, “that ye may believe that I am (ego eimi)” in John 13:19 without them batting an eye.

This brings us back to Jn.8:58. Why did the Jews seek to stone him on that occasion? The context of Jn.8 shows that Jesus;

• accused the Jews of “judging after the flesh” (vs.15).
• said they would die in their sins (vss.21,24).
• implied they were in bondage (vss.32,33).
• said they were servants of sin (vs.34).
• said they were out to kill him (vss. 37,40).
• implied they were spiritually deaf (vs.43,47).
• said their father was the devil (vs.44).
• said they were not of Elohim (vs.47).
• accused them of dishonoring him (vs.49).
• accused them of not knowing Yahweh (vs.55).
• accused them of lying (vs.55).

Aside from that, the Jews misunderstood Jesus words leading them to believe;

• that he accused them of being born of literal fornication (vs.41).
• Jesus had a devil (vs.52).
• that he was exalting himself above Abraham (vs.53).

Jesus words in verse 58 were the culmination of an encounter that was so offensive to these Jews, that they couldn’t restrain themselves. They simply couldn’t take it anymore so they sought to stone him, not because of two simple words, “ego eimi,” but because he was making himself out to be greater than their beloved father Abraham.

“I am” is a term that we use even today. Are you t8? “I am”. This doesn’t mean I am God, but that I am t8. “I am” means “I exist”. So I exist as t8. When asked if he is Jesus of Nazareth, he could say “I am” meaning that yes indeed he exists as the person you seek. It is not meant to be taken anymore than that.

We know that there was one with God in the beginning and God created all through him. The Word. This Word became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning and is now with God in the same glory he had with the Father before the cosmos. When he returns to earth he has this name written on him. “The Word of God”. This is who he is.

Remember, in order to crucify Jesus, the Pharisees sought false testimony to bring a charge against him. Why would they need to do that if Jesus claimed to be God because that would have been the charge they sought right there. Yet they got false testimony and never brought up any claims he made that said he was God. The reason is because Jesus never claimed to be God anywhere in the New Testament.

[Lightenup]

t8,

Jesus is YHVH our Righteousness. YHVH is the I AM. YHVH is the unity of the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the Great God. Jesus, YHVH our Righteousness, is the Lord of lords. He is the Arm of this Unity of YHVH.

Rev 22

10And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. 11“Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”

12“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

16“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

Isaiah

Isaiah 40:10
Behold, the Lord GOD comes with might, and His arm establishes His rule. His reward is with Him, and His recompense accompanies Him.

Isaiah 62:11
Behold, the LORD has proclaimed to the ends of the earth, “Say to Daughter Zion: See, your Savior comes! Look, His reward is with Him, and His recompense goes before Him.”

YHVH our Righteousness is the Arm of the Lord GOD. They are a UNITY not a disunity. It is a beautiful relationship of Father and Son. Let it be.

 

[Pilgrim]

Hi Jodi,

You said: “according to God’s word, FIRST you have a son of David, and THEN God makes him into His own Son, why we read in Luke 1 that Jesus before he is born is already said to be the son of David“.

You have it back to front. John chapter 1 says:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same (WORD) was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”  Joh 1:1-3.

Then “He (the WORD)was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He (the WORD) came unto his own, and his own received him not.”  Joh 1:10-11. “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”  Joh 1:14

So FIRST (He, not it, who WAS in the beginning, WAS with God and IS God and created ALL things) i.e. the WORD, then Flesh and Blood.

[Pilgrim]

A great piece on idols and idolatry LightenUp.

[Pilgrim]

T8:

Thanks for your post. I appreciate your input and agree with much of what you say about the precedence of Jesus and why they wanted to stone Jesus.

However, in all the references you gave or alluded to, the I am statements are in the context of the the person identifying themselves as someone or something. E.g. Gabriel is saying I am Gabriel, the blind man is saying I am the man that was born blind, Peter is saying I am the man you seek. The many times Jesus says “I am” relates to a truth about himself as you quote e.g. I am the bread from heaven or I am the good shepherd etc.

So in both John 8:58 and John 13:19 Jesus is simply declaring I AM i.e. I exist, I have always existed and I will always exist (a similar declaration as in Rev 1:8, 22:13).  In John 13:19 it is spoken to the disciples after washing their feet and Jesus is forewarning them of his upcoming betrayal and sufferings and He was reassuring them He was the I AM. Here is a part of what one commentator says on John 13:19 “ye may believe that I am he:” that is to say I AM the Lord God omniscient, who knows and declares things before they come to pass, just as they do come to pass, which none but the eternal God can do; and that he was the Saviour and Redeemer, the Messiah spoken of and promised, the very person prophesied of, in Psalm 41. For that whole “psalm” is applicable to Jesus Christ, the true Messiah; in Psa 41:1, the happiness of such is declared, who “consider the poor”; the Messiah, in his low estate of humiliation, who became poor for the sake of his people”.

Likewise in John 8:58 Jesus does not associate the I AM with a particular statement about his calling (like shepherd, bread etc) or his ministry or that he was fulfilling some prophecy concerning himself but simply (as in John 13:19) declaring I AM I.e. the “who” he is, the one who has always EXISTED not of time and I believe Jesus intended it to register in the mind of the Jews God’s statement of himself in Exodus 3:14.

In this regard I am in accord with several commentators on John 8:5. Here are just a few:

Jamieson- Fausett- Brown state: Before Abraham was, I am — The words rendered “was” and “am” are quite different. The one clause means, “Abraham was brought into being”; the other, “I exist.” The statement therefore is not that Christ came into existence before Abraham did (as Arians affirm is the meaning), but that He never came into being at all, but existed before Abraham had a being; in other words, existed before creation, or eternally (as Joh 1:1). In that sense the Jews plainly understood Him, since “then took they up stones to cast at Him,” just as they had before done when they saw that He made Himself equal with God (Joh 5:18).

John Gill states: “before Abraham was, I am” is to be understood of the deity, eternity, and immutability of Christ, and refers to the passage in Exo 3:14. “I am that I am–I am hath sent me unto you”, the true Jehovah; and so Christ was before Abraham was in being, the everlasting I am, the eternal God, which is, and was, and is to come: he appeared in an human form to our first parents before Abraham was, and was manifested as the Mediator, Saviour, and living Redeemer, to whom all the patriarchs before Abraham looked, and by whom they were saved: he was concerned in the creation of all things out of nothing, as the efficient cause thereof; he was set up from everlasting as Mediator; and the covenant of grace was made with him, and the blessings and promises of it were put into his hands before the world began; the eternal election of men to everlasting life was made in him before the foundation of the world; and he had a glory with his Father before the world was; yea, from all eternity he was the Son of God, of the same nature with him, and equal to him; and his being of the same nature proves his eternity, as well as deity, that he is from everlasting to everlasting God; and is what he ever was, and will be what he now is: he is immutable, the same today, yesterday, and for ever; in his nature, love, grace, and fulness, he is the invariable and unchangeable I am.

Albert Barnes – “Before Abraham was” – Before Abraham lived. “I am” – The expression I am, though in the present tense, is clearly designed to refer to a past time. Thus, in Psa 90:2, “From everlasting to everlasting thou art God.” Applied to God, it denotes continued existence without respect to time, so far as he is concerned. We divide time into the past, the present, and the future. The expression, applied to God, denotes that he does not measure his existence in this manner, but that the word by which we express the present denotes his continued and unchanging existence. Hence, he assumes it as his name, “I AM,” and “I AM that I AM,” Exo 3:14. Compare Isa 44:6; Isa 47:8. There is a remarkable similarity between the expression employed by Jesus in this place and that used in Exodus to denote the name of God. The manner in which Jesus used it would strikingly suggest the application of the same language to God. The question here was about his pre-existence. The objection of the Jews was that he was not 50 years old, and could not, therefore, have seen Abraham. Jesus replied to that that he existed before Abraham. As in his human nature he was not yet 50 years old, and could not, as a man, have existed before Abraham, this declaration must be referred to another nature; and the passage proves that, while he was a man, he was also endowed with another nature existing before Abraham, and to which he applied the term (familiar to the Jews as expressive of the existence of God) I AM; and this declaration corresponds to the affirmation of John Joh 1:1, that he was in the beginning with God, and was God. This affirmation of Jesus is one of the proofs on which John relies to prove that he was the Messiah Joh 20:31, to establish which was the design of writing this book.

Blessings.

[Lightenup]

Hi Pilgrim,

You said:

Praise God we have a common understanding regarding God the Father and Jesus Christ His Son.

Regarding the topic “god of this world”, we need to understand that the “world” Paul is talking of is “this present evil world” out of which born again children of God are delivered, not the created “world” that the Almighty God created which includes all things I.e. earth, heavens, seas and everything in them including principalities & powers, angelic beings etc.

T8 drew your attention to what the Apostle John said about that “present evil world” , namely “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.” (1 John 2:16). These three ways were how the Serpent tempted Eve and Christ. This is his domain. The same Apostle says “the whole world lies in wickedness (or in the wicked one)” (1 John 5:19).

To the Jews Jesus said “You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.” (John 8:44).

It was this “Old Serpent”, the Devil, that “deceived” Eve and drew a 1/3 of the angelic beings into rebellion. He deceived Eve into thinking they could be gods like God. I would call that blinding her to the truth. Had Adam Obeyed he would have “reigned in life” and exercised the dominion he had been given But all this was lost through disobedience.

The Jews of Paul’s day, and the majority of them still to day, “have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God”. They cannot SEE that “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes”. (Romans 10:2-4). Like Paul they need the entrance of Light, and like Paul’s conversion shows, it is Jesus who gives that Light (not blindness).

God is Light and the WORD is the Eternal Life, which Life is the light of everyone who comes into the created world. Jesus came to give light not blind people. Everyone who has ever lived lives in darkness under the Spirit of disobedience, blind to the light (by the Liar & Deceiver & Murderer), until they receive the Light, and “the day Star arise in their hearts” (2 Peter 1:19), at which point they “receive power to become sons of God” and be “translated out of darkness into the kingdom of the God’s dear Son”.

Satan did not create evil and thus cannot be god of the evil world. The evil one ultimately answers to YHVH. YHVH created evil and is God of this world, evil or not.

Isaiah 45

5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Pilgrim you said:

It was this “Old Serpent”, the Devil, that “deceived” Eve and drew a 1/3 of the angelic beings into rebellion. He deceived Eve into thinking they could be gods like God. I would call that blinding her to the truth. Had Adam Obeyed he would have “reigned in life” and exercised the dominion he had been given But all this was lost through disobedience.

Who does the Devil answer to? God. I realize that he deceived Eve, as I have said before, however, that does not blind a person to truth. It leads a person away from truth, yes but I don’t think that is the same thing. I think it would be better to discuss why YHVH would blind the unbelievers from the glory of the gospel of Jesus.

Deut 28:29 “The LORD will smite you with madness and with blindness and with bewilderment of heart;

Zephaniah 1:17 I will bring distress on men So that they will walk like the blind, Because they have sinned against the LORD; And their blood will be poured out like dust And their flesh like dung.

Romans 11

7What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

8just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
 EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”

9And David says,
“LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.

10“LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER.”

YHVH does blind people, He also sent Jesus to heal the blind. YHVH is God who blinds the minds of the unbelievers and also shines the Light that leads them out of their blindness according to His purposes.

I have shown you that YHVH does blind people. Let’s dig in to find out why.

 

[Pilgrim]

Hi LightenUp,

Re: god of this World – blindness – 2 Corinthians 4:4

We know that God is all powerful -Omnipotent. This is not in question. All will be judged by Him, and receive their destiny according to what that have done while alive (Romans 2:1-11). We know that “the devil that deceived them (the nations)” will be “cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever” together with the “fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars” who shall “have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death”  And following the judgement He will create  new heavens and a new earth wherein dwells righteousness, wherein is the city New Jerusalem and God and the Lamb are the Temple and the light of the city.

In 2 Corinthians 4:3 Paul is saying that “if the gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are LOST”.  Now Jesus said “I am not sent but unto the LOST sheep of the house of Israel.”  (Matthew 15:24) and again “For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was LOST.”  (Luke 19:10). So the context of 2 Cor 4:4 is in relation to the LOST not the disobedient and rebellious.

Now all the scriptures you have shared are of true. But we most always read verses of scripture in context. To whom are such things spoken? Is it to the LOST or the rebellious and disobedient?

As I have posted before scriptures like Isaiah 6:9 are applied to those people whose “heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed” (Matthew 13:15). I.e. to the disobedient not the LOST.

In Deuteronomy 28:29 the Lord through Moses is listing the curses that “shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:”  (Deuteronomy 28:15). I.e. to the rebellious and disobedient not the LOST.

In Zephaniah 1:17 “I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, BECAUSE THEY HAVE SINNED AGAINST THE LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.” This was a “day of the LORD” in judgement on Judah and Jerusalem because they had “turned back from the LORD; and those that have not sought the LORD, nor enquired for him”. This day was “at hand”, a day of judgement, “trumpet and alarm”, “a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness” that was coming. On the disobedient and rebellious not the LOST.

In Romans 11 the things you quoted were “to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.”  (Romans 10:21). As I said before those who had “a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God” ( Rom 10:2-3), those who refused “Christ” as “the end of the law for righteousness” and would not believe (Romans 10:4).

The same applies in Romans 1:21-32 those “when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened”.  To these God “gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves….etc”.

The same applies to 1 Peter 2 Jesus was “a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.”( 1 Peter 2:8). I.e. Disobedient people are ordained to stumble over him because they are disobedient.

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