Born and begotten

[shimmer]

JustAskin, I think you know what I mean, if you say a word over and over in three different threads, begotten, begotten, begotten, what does it mean, begotten, it gets really strange,

[mikeboll64]

Quote (shimmer @ July 28 2010,12:14)

JustAskin, I think you know what I mean, if you say a word over and over in three different threads, begotten, begotten, begotten, what does it mean, begotten, it gets really strange,

Hi Shimmer,

And at what point do we give up any chance whatsoever that it still means what it's definition actually says it means?

Is there anyone out there that thinks begotten actually means procreated?

How about if I remind Jack that the “begotten” that Paul quotes from Psalm 2 in the NT is the Hebrew word “yalad”, and that word NEVER meant anything except “procreated” or “birthed”?

Why would God use a word in Psalm 2 that the Hebrews had no chance of taking any way except “procreated”?  Was God out to confuse them……..and us?

Was Jesus proclaiming the decree that God begat him using a Hebrew word that didn't even have the other “slang” uses that Greek word “gennao” would eventually have, to say he would eventually be “appointed” as God's Son in the future?  How could the Hebrews have possibly understood this?  And if Jesus wasn't literally begotten by God, then in what sense was he God's Son before he came as flesh?  Was he God's “created” Son?  His “hatched” Son?  His test-tube baby?  Was he just one of many of God's Sons?

Why did he tell Nicodemus he was God's ONLY BEGOTTEN SON?

peace and love,
mike

[Ed J]

Hi Everyone,

Born is the first moment (outside of the womb) of birth.
Begotten is a reference as to who is the (birth) Father.
Pretty simple No; it's taken 51 Pages to figure this out?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Again,

No wonder everyone has such trouble understanding God's embedded Code! (Click Here)

Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[JustAskin]

Hi Edj,

So when I said to Mike that I had Begotten him as “Spiritual Brother” does that mean I gave birth to him, and to KarMarie as “Spiritual Sister”?

Surely there are Scripturally intelligent people in this forum who can see past Earthly views…

Always think in the Spirit when talking about Spiritual things – and this is what we are discussing – not “FLESHLY Man based” sexual entangled Procreation.

God “Adopted” Jesus, as Man (Begot Him) to be His Son in the Spirit after he was raised from the dead to Spiritual life, again.

God “Raised him above his Brethren in Heaven” }
God “Replaced him over Adam, as Son of God” } (Begot Him as Firstborn in Rank order)

God “Anointed Him with the Holy Spirit” (Set him apart to be a leader – King – Begot him over those not anointed)

These are all SPIRITUAL Begettings… Begotten in the Spiritual sense…

Mike, nothing to do with PROCREATION…

[Ed J]

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 01 2010,02:58)

Hi Edj, 1) So when I said to Mike that I had Begotten him as “Spiritual Brother” does that mean I gave birth to him, and to KarMarie as “Spiritual Sister”? 2) Surely there are Scripturally intelligent people in this forum who can see past Earthly views… 3) Always think in the Spirit when talking about Spiritual things – and this is what we are discussing – not “FLESHLY Man based” sexual entangled Procreation. 4) God “Adopted” Jesus, as Man (Begot Him) to be His Son in the Spirit after he was raised from the dead to Spiritual life, again. 5) God “Raised him above his Brethren in Heaven” } God “Replaced him over Adam, as Son of God”    } (Begot Him as Firstborn in Rank order) 6) God “Anointed Him with the Holy Spirit” (Set him apart to be a leader – King – Begot him over those not anointed) 7) These are all SPIRITUAL Begettings… Begotten in the Spiritual sense… Mike, nothing to do with PROCREATION…

Hi JustAskin,

1) You might have thought you have?
Maybe you were just using the wrong wording for agreeing with them?

2) We would hope so.

3) Righto.

4) Go back and reread Matt.1:18, Matt.1:20 and Luke 1:35; God birthed Jesus; Jesus was NOT adopted!

5) God raised Jesus up so that Jesus may raise us up! (John 6:39 / Rom.8:17)

6) God also anoints us with His HolySpirit to rule and reign as well! (Rom.8:17 / Psalm 110:2 / Rev.19:11-21)

7) Spiritually God Begets all believers, it's a matter of when we're BORN!

Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 01 2010,02:58)

Mike, nothing to do with PROCREATION…

Ah, but you keep avoiding the fact that the word Paul quoted in Psalm 2 was “yalad”.  And yalad was ONLY about procreation.  So while you can say you “gennao” me and it doesn't have to do with a literal birth, you could not say you “yalad” me unless you literally gave birth to me.

And in Psalm 2, God said, “I have 'yalad' you, [therefore] you are my Son”.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 01 2010,03:37)

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 01 2010,02:58) Hi Edj, 1) So when I said to Mike that I had Begotten him as “Spiritual Brother” does that mean I gave birth to him, and to KarMarie as “Spiritual Sister”? 2) Surely there are Scripturally intelligent people in this forum who can see past Earthly views… 3) Always think in the Spirit when talking about Spiritual things – and this is what we are discussing – not “FLESHLY Man based” sexual entangled Procreation. 4) God “Adopted” Jesus, as Man (Begot Him) to be His Son in the Spirit after he was raised from the dead to Spiritual life, again. 5) God “Raised him above his Brethren in Heaven” } God “Replaced him over Adam, as Son of God”    } (Begot Him as Firstborn in Rank order) 6) God “Anointed Him with the Holy Spirit” (Set him apart to be a leader – King – Begot him over those not anointed) 7) These are all SPIRITUAL Begettings… Begotten in the Spiritual sense… Mike, nothing to do with PROCREATION… Hi JustAskin, 1) You might have thought you have? Maybe you were just using the wrong wording for agreeing with them? 2) We would hope so. 3) Righto. 4) Go back and reread Matt.1:18, Matt.1:20 and Luke 1:35; God birthed Jesus; Jesus was NOT adopted! 5) God raised Jesus up so that Jesus may raise us up! (John 6:39 / Rom.8:17) 6) God also anoints us with His HolySpirit to rule and reign as well! (Rom.8:17 / Psalm 110:2 / Rev.19:11-21) 7) Spiritually God Begets all believers, it's a matter of when we're BORN! Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17) יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Good post Ed.

And unless JA, KJ and all the others who try to use the “God doesn't have a wife, so therefore He couldn't have procreated Jesus” argument admit to blatantly limiting how and what God can do, they should NEVER use this argument again.

mike

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 01 2010,03:47)

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 01 2010,03:37) Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 01 2010,02:58) Hi Edj, 1) So when I said to Mike that I had Begotten him as “Spiritual Brother” does that mean I gave birth to him, and to KarMarie as “Spiritual Sister”? 2) Surely there are Scripturally intelligent people in this forum who can see past Earthly views… 3) Always think in the Spirit when talking about Spiritual things – and this is what we are discussing – not “FLESHLY Man based” sexual entangled Procreation. 4) God “Adopted” Jesus, as Man (Begot Him) to be His Son in the Spirit after he was raised from the dead to Spiritual life, again. 5) God “Raised him above his Brethren in Heaven” } God “Replaced him over Adam, as Son of God”    } (Begot Him as Firstborn in Rank order) 6) God “Anointed Him with the Holy Spirit” (Set him apart to be a leader – King – Begot him over those not anointed) 7) These are all SPIRITUAL Begettings… Begotten in the Spiritual sense… Mike, nothing to do with PROCREATION… Hi JustAskin, 1) You might have thought you have? Maybe you were just using the wrong wording for agreeing with them? 2) We would hope so. 3) Righto. 4) Go back and reread Matt.1:18, Matt.1:20 and Luke 1:35; God birthed Jesus; Jesus was NOT adopted! 5) God raised Jesus up so that Jesus may raise us up! (John 6:39 / Rom.8:17) 6) God also anoints us with His HolySpirit to rule and reign as well! (Rom.8:17 / Psalm 110:2 / Rev.19:11-21) 7) Spiritually God Begets all believers, it's a matter of when we're BORN! Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17) יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Good post Ed. And unless JA, KJ and all the others who try to use the “God doesn't have a wife, so therefore He couldn't have procreated Jesus” argument admit to blatantly limiting how and what God can do, they should NEVER use this argument again.   mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks Mike!

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[JustAskin]

Mike,

Please can you explain Psalm 2: 7-9 for me, verse by verse (or as much of Psalm 2 as you wish) to include chronology and persons spoken of (David/Jesus):

Quote

7 “I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. 8 Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession. 9 You shall break[a] them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’”

[mikeboll64]

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 01 2010,04:37)

Mike, Please can you explain Psalm 2: 7-9 for me, verse by verse (or as much of Psalm 2 as you wish) to include chronology and persons spoken of (David/Jesus): Quote 7 “I will declare the decree:         The LORD has said to Me,         ‘You are My Son,         Today I have begotten You. 8 Ask of Me, and I will give You         The nations for Your inheritance,         And the ends of the earth for Your possession. 9 You shall break[a] them with a rod of iron;         You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’”

Simple.  NONE of Psalm 2 was literally about David.  It was all about Jesus, as is attested by Peter and John in Acts 4.

mike

[mikeboll64]

JA,

Now could YOU explain what God might have meant by using a word the Hebrews could have only understood as “procreated”?

mike

[JustAskin]

Mike,
I have no idea. I never heard about it until you mentioned it.

Moreover, who did God “Declare the decree” to in verse 7.

And in verse 8, would you say that God was offering the Nations and the ends of the Earth to 'Jesus' as an inheritance before 'Jesus' had done anything to deserve it, seeing that he had just been 'procreated'?

Does God 'Procreate' – surely, it is fleshly man that 'Procreates' – do Spirits 'Procreate'?

God 'Procreated' One Spirit being and only one – Why? How did he create the other Spirit being – the other “Sons”, the other “Principle Sons”; The “Princes/Stars”?

Did he then not procreate them – Why not?

Can you give me a quote that includes what you say about “yalad” (is that it?) Where did you translate it from – Not Wickipedia?

[Lightenup]

Quote (JustAskin @ July 31 2010,10:58)

Hi Edj, So when I said to Mike that I had Begotten him as “Spiritual Brother” does that mean I gave birth to him, and to KarMarie as “Spiritual Sister”? Surely there are Scripturally intelligent people in this forum who can see past Earthly views… Always think in the Spirit when talking about Spiritual things – and this is what we are discussing – not “FLESHLY Man based” sexual entangled Procreation. God “Adopted” Jesus, as Man (Begot Him) to be His Son in the Spirit after he was raised from the dead to Spiritual life, again. God “Raised him above his Brethren in Heaven” } God “Replaced him over Adam, as Son of God”    } (Begot Him as Firstborn in Rank order) God “Anointed Him with the Holy Spirit” (Set him apart to be a leader – King – Begot him over those not anointed) These are all SPIRITUAL Begettings… Begotten in the Spiritual sense… Mike, nothing to do with PROCREATION…

JA,
Many are begotten in the sense you speak of sharing the same spiritual nature but when only 'one' was begotten it is obvious that it means a different type of begotten as in the 'only begotten Son.'

For instance a being that was begotten through procreation produces a being like the one that begat him. God the Father had only one being that was begotten in this way…the literal Son of God. Man begets man, God begets God.

The Father and the Son share the physical and spiritual nature. Both have the deity nature being made up of divine body, divine soul, and divine spirit and we are made in that image of being body, soul, and spirit but we are not divine but have a human body, human soul, and a human spirit.

See the difference?

[JustAskin]

Mike,

I don't do much Internet searching but I looked up YALAD and there was this quote from: http://sites.google.com/site/calendarstudies/begat-hebrew-yalad-

Quote

Leah is well known to have had six immediate sons and one daughter, yet she is said to bare Jacob 33 sons and daughters, a sum that includes grandsons and great grandsons. Rachel had two immediate sons with Jacob, but is said to have born 14 souls to Jacob, another sum that included future generations. Finally, Bilhah had two immediate son, but in fact bare to Jacob 7 souls. The above examples serve to demonstrate that the Hebrew word “yalad” is one that simply shows lineage or descent, and should not be relied upon or assumed to indicate an immediate father-son or father-daughter (or mother-son, mother-daughter) relationship. It should be also noted that the use of “yalad” does not mean that the one begotton and the one begetting cannot be an immediate relationship, as was seen in the example with Zilpah above, some of those counted as her sons were immediate sons, but most were not. Normally context can be used to determine whether the one begotten was an immediate son or daughter. Additionally, if the one begetting offspring is the one who named the one begotten, this also indicates an immediate parent-child relationship (reference study on “qara shem”).

I have no idea what it is saying for real but it appears to say, to me anyway, that YALAD just means “Descend…whether by direct birth or through generation of birth”.

As such, I see no difference between that and any other “Begetting”; That one being “Yalad”ed is called Son (or daughter) by whatever means that one becomes “Of the lineage of the Begetter”.

ALL Being with Life by the Spirit, are called “SONS of God”. A Father Begets/Yalads a Son.

All the Spiritual “Sons of God” were 'Yalad'ed and this includes 'Jesus'/'Satan'/'Gabriel'/'Michael', etc,…

Where does this discussion go with this, now?

[JustAskin]

Mike,

Can you explain EPHESIANS 1:20-23 in terms of Psalms 2.

Is there a parallel there … ?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (JustAskin @ July 31 2010,15:58)

Mike, I don't do much Internet searching but I looked up YALAD and there was this quote from: http://sites.google.com/site/calendarstudies/begat-hebrew-yalad- Quote Leah is well known to have had six immediate sons and one daughter, yet she is said to bare Jacob 33 sons and daughters, a sum that includes grandsons and great grandsons.  Rachel had two immediate sons with Jacob, but is said to have born 14 souls to Jacob, another sum that included future generations.  Finally, Bilhah had two immediate son, but in fact bare to Jacob 7 souls. The above examples serve to demonstrate that the Hebrew word “yalad” is one that simply shows lineage or descent, and should not be relied upon or assumed to indicate an immediate father-son or father-daughter (or mother-son, mother-daughter) relationship.  It should be also noted that the use of “yalad” does not mean that the one begotton and the one begetting cannot be an immediate relationship, as was seen in the example with Zilpah above, some of those counted as her sons were immediate sons, but most were not.  Normally context can be used to determine whether the one begotten was an immediate son or daughter.  Additionally, if the one begetting offspring is the one who named the one begotten, this also indicates an immediate parent-child relationship (reference study on “qara shem”). I have no idea what it is saying for real but it appears to say, to me anyway, that YALAD just means “Descend…whether by direct birth or through generation of birth”. As such, I see no difference between that and any other “Begetting”; That one being “Yalad”ed is called Son (or daughter) by whatever means that one becomes “Of the lineage of the Begetter”. ALL Being with Life by the Spirit, are called “SONS of God”. A Father Begets/Yalads a Son. All the Spiritual “Sons of God” were 'Yalad'ed and this includes 'Jesus'/'Satan'/'Gabriel'/'Michael', etc,… Where does this discussion go with this, now?

JA

You are right and Mike has failed to do his research but just continues to make his false claims.

I will show him in my next post in the debate examples of the Heb word Yalad where it is obvious it is used without a “Litteral birth” or to be born.  Jack has already shown him one example but he continues to ignore it.

The Apostle Paul a Hebrew of the Hebrews uses the equivalant word which is “gennaō” which is Yalad translated in the Greek LXX which is what Paul and Jesus had access to, in a way that is obvious that it is not a “litteral birh”.

1 Cor 4:15 and Phil 1:10

WJ

[JustAskin]

Thank you WJ,

I would have thought that after – how many months now – and how many threads – it would have got through to Mike, but it seems not.

He did say he would give in of he was shown proof …!

This Internet Searching is causing a load more trouble than it solve or resolves. It makes fools into wise men who can just quote willynilly from the worl wide wickipedia instead of searching the scriptures – goodness – what did people do before the Internet?

I'm not a luddite – I am Web and technology savvy but to me – all that is required for this forum is a Good bible – I don't have a Concordance and can still read and understand, discern and quote, after my own fashion, Scriptural truth.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 01 2010,07:58)

Mike, I don't do much Internet searching but I looked up YALAD and there was this quote from: http://sites.google.com/site/calendarstudies/begat-hebrew-yalad- Quote Leah is well known to have had six immediate sons and one daughter, yet she is said to bare Jacob 33 sons and daughters, a sum that includes grandsons and great grandsons.  Rachel had two immediate sons with Jacob, but is said to have born 14 souls to Jacob, another sum that included future generations.  Finally, Bilhah had two immediate son, but in fact bare to Jacob 7 souls. The above examples serve to demonstrate that the Hebrew word “yalad” is one that simply shows lineage or descent, and should not be relied upon or assumed to indicate an immediate father-son or father-daughter (or mother-son, mother-daughter) relationship.  It should be also noted that the use of “yalad” does not mean that the one begotton and the one begetting cannot be an immediate relationship, as was seen in the example with Zilpah above, some of those counted as her sons were immediate sons, but most were not.  Normally context can be used to determine whether the one begotten was an immediate son or daughter.  Additionally, if the one begetting offspring is the one who named the one begotten, this also indicates an immediate parent-child relationship (reference study on “qara shem”). I have no idea what it is saying for real but it appears to say, to me anyway, that YALAD just means “Descend…whether by direct birth or through generation of birth”. As such, I see no difference between that and any other “Begetting”; That one being “Yalad”ed is called Son (or daughter) by whatever means that one becomes “Of the lineage of the Begetter”. ALL Being with Life by the Spirit, are called “SONS of God”. A Father Begets/Yalads a Son. All the Spiritual “Sons of God” were 'Yalad'ed and this includes 'Jesus'/'Satan'/'Gabriel'/'Michael', etc,… Where does this discussion go with this, now?

Hey JA,

Pretty good! Mike needs for words to mean what he wants them to mean. It's like the word “all.” Mike takes it literally in Colossians 1:15. But in verse 23 he says that “all” is an “exaggeration.” He denies also that “all” means “all” in reference to Christ having “all authority.”

Mike's denials and inconsistencies are more obvious than any person here. In Deuteronomy 32:18 the “Rock” which guided the people said “I begot (yalad) you.” Paul said that Jesus is the “Rock” which guided the people. The meaning is that their deliverance from the bondage from Egypt to serve God was a “birth” for them.

KJ

[JustAskin]

EPHESIANS 1:20-23 shows God “begetting” Jesus to his raised position – would it not be at this point that Jesus was offered “The Nations as an inheritance and the ends of the earth as a possession”?

Certainly not when he was born/created/begotten – he had not done anything yet… and there were no Nations nor Earth to have ends of, just as there was no DAY when Jesus was Born/Created/begotten. Time is only for the sake of Mankind because we have a limited amount of it – otherwise it would be Eternity: “You are my Son, From Eternity I have Begotten you”!

[Author]

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