Born and begotten

[Proclaimer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 14 2010,12:55)

Quote (t8 @ June 14 2010,12:51) Yes there is an interesting argument to be had here. If it says that God sent his son, does it mean that he was the son and then was sent, or that he was sent and then become the son. e.g., it also says that God made all things through Christ. But when that happened he wasn't the Christ at that point was he? Or is it that we are subjecting our limitation of time to the eternal realm? Hi t8, I agree the sent part could go either way…..maybe. But what about the “gave” part?  How could God have “gave” someone who wasn't yet that person?  And if he didn't become that person until he was raised, how is it that God then “gave” him?   Is this what they call a paradox? peace and love, mike

Is it like saying, the President of the USA was born in Honolulu, even though he wasn't the president yet.

[karmarie]

Hi.

Notice what it says in Matthetes to Diognetus,
…..The incomprehensible Word,

in·com·pre·hen·si·ble
a. Difficult or impossible to understand or comprehend; unintelligible: incomprehensible jargon.
b. Impossible to know or fathom: incomprehensible mystery.

[NickHassan]

Hi KM,
Only if folk confuse the vessel with the contents.
Almost everything the Master said or did was the work of the Spirit of God in him.
Yet folk spend hours confusing them and imagining all sorts of things pertain to the vessel and not God.

[NickHassan]

Hi KM,
We never become God despite the delusions these man offered

[karmarie]

Hi Nick, well, if it was incomprehensible even to them all those years ago, what makes people think they can figure it now? I think its better to leave some things unknown, but to have faith anyway.

[karmarie]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 14 2010,15:44)

Hi KM, We never become God despite the delusions these man offered

Nick, I think they meant to get closer to God,

[NickHassan]

Hi KM,
Check their CVs

[karmarie]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 14 2010,15:49)

Hi KM, Check their CVs

ok, but I also quoted the bible, and Matthetes to Diognetus, so it says in Collosians 1 that He was firstborn of all creation and also firstborn of the dead.

[NickHassan]

Hi Km,
Indeed the Word was with God and being the Spirit of Christ was God and before all things.
The Spirit creates for God[Ps 104]

Now the Lord is the Spirit, the head of the Body the church of those reborn of that Spirit.[heb12.23]

[karmarie]

Jesus was part of God, he was of God, something we cant understand because we have the minds of men, so He was there at creation, there before us, before all, he was sent into the world, to be like one of us, so we could be saved from our sins, so we could be reconciled to God. Firstborn of creation, firstborn of the dead for our sakes.

So whe we pray, we pray to God through jesus, is this just in a few words or do we actually go THROUGH Jesus, its through Jesus the door to God.

[NickHassan]

Hi KM,
The Spirit of Christ first became one with Jesus at the Jordan.
Rebirth of water and the Spirit into Christ Jesus is also to come into unity with His God

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 14 2010,12:47)

Hi Gene, Thanks for the thorough answers to my questions.  Some here could learn from you.   You left out a reply to the Son of Man question.  Was Jesus the Son of Man? And thanks for refreshing my memory about doubting John.  That sure seems out of place compared with how sure he was when he baptized Jesus.  I'm going to read it closer, because I know scripture doesn't contradict itself.   After I find out what you believe about the Son of Man, we can discuss the “today” verses “will be” a litte more. peace and love, mike

Mike ………. I thought, I did answer that question , I do believe Jesus (IS) a Son of Man as all Mankind is also. And i believe He became Son of GOD at the Jordan when He receives the HOLY SPIRIT (IN) to Him, Just as we also do. Except He had the (fullness) of the Spirit in Him because GOD gave him the Spirit without measure we are told. WE have the earnest of the Spirit we are told.

Peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

[karmarie]

To go through Jesus is to pass through death to life, in the Spirit. This is what jesus did, came to life, brought through death, so through him we also may pass through death to life. Born new, a new person, born from above not below, begotten by God, taken into his care, risen from the dead.

[Ed J]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 14 2010,14:10)

Hi KM, The Spirit of Christ first became one with Jesus at the Jordan. Rebirth of water and the Spirit into Christ Jesus is also to come into unity with His God

Hey Nick,

Did you ever read The Urantia Book?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Lightenup]

Quote (karmarie @ June 13 2010,21:54)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 14 2010,15:49) Hi KM, Check their CVs ok, but I also quoted the bible, and Matthetes to Diognetus, so it says in Collosians 1 that He was firstborn of all creation and also firstborn of the dead.

Hi karmarie,
God gave me some more insight about the 'firstborn over all creation' and 'firstborn from among the dead' this weekend.

I wrote about it here: (eighth post from the top)

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=320

[Lightenup]

Here is what the Strong's number's means according to the Biblesoft program that I use:

From Heb 1:5…begotten
NT:1080
genna/w
gennao (ghen-nah'-o); from a variation of NT:1085; to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively, to regenerate:

KJV – bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

From John 1:18 and John 3:16…only begotten
NT:3439
monogenh/$
monogenes (mon-og-en-ace'); from NT:3441 and NT:1096; only-born, i.e. sole:

KJV – only (begotten, child).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Both terms have the sense of procreating.

[karmarie]

Hi Kathi, I hadnt seen what you wrote, thanks.

I also just had this..

Isaiah 66:8..(YLT)
..Is earth caused to bring forth in one day? Born is a nation at once? For she hath been pained, Zion also hath borne her sons.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
…When the Spirit was poured out, and the gospel went forth from Zion, multitudes were converted in a little time. The word of God, especially his promises, and ordinances, are the consolations of the church. The true happiness of all Christians is increased by every convert brought to Christ. The gospel brings with it, wherever it is received in its power, such a river of peace, as will carry us to the ocean of boundless and endless bliss. Divine comforts reach the inward man; the joy of the Lord will be the strength of the believer. Both God's mercy and justice shall be manifested, and for ever magnified.

[JustAskin]

All,
Jesus was 'firstborn of God in the Flesh' means that he has the Holy Spirit without Measure, a 'Son of God'

Adam was 'The Firstborn in the Flesh Son of God'

Jesus was begotten/born of man in the flesh, was anointed at the river Jordan with the Full Measure of the Holy Spirit, baptised 'with the Holy Spirit' as 'Son of God'

When Jesus was baptised at the river Jordan, was it then that God also said, 'You are my Son, Today I have beotten you'?

How does that tie into Fractal Scriptures? Where is there a related passage that reflects this great event?
When was it that God said to David 'You are my Son, Today I have begotten you' (Psalms 2). Was it when David was 'born/came into being'?

(…Rushing out, more later…!)

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 14 2010,16:49)

Hi karmarie, God gave me some more insight about the 'firstborn over all creation' and 'firstborn from among the dead' this weekend.   I wrote about it here: (eighth post from the top) https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=320

I thought I would quote your post here as it is relevant.

Quote (Lightenup @ June 14 2010,15:56)

Ok, So God has enlightened me more as to what can help us all to come to an understanding of what 'firstborn' in Col 1 means. Here is the context: 1:15 27 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, 1:16 for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him – all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers – all things were created through him and for him. 1:17 He himself is before all things and all things are held together in him. 1:18 He is the head of the body, the church, as well as the beginning, the firstborn from among the dead, so that he himself may become first in all things.   1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in the Son 1:20 and through him to reconcile all things to himself by making peace through the blood of his cross – through him, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Just substitute the word 'firstborn' with 'firstfruit' and that could paint a clearer picture for you. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn (first fruit) over all creation, 1:16 for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him – all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers – all things were created through him and for him. 1:17 He himself is before all things and all things are held together in him. 1:18 He is the head of the body, the church, as well as the beginning, the firstborn (first fruit)from among the dead, so that he himself may become first in all things.   1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in the Son 1:20 and through him to reconcile all things to himself by making peace through the blood of his cross – through him, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Here are scriptures that speak of first fruits as a firstborn and first raised: Psalm 105:36 NASB 36 He also struck down all the firstborn in their land,    The first fruits of all their vigor. This carries the notion of the beginning of the procreative strength of the father, btw. Here is a passage that will help us understand the phrase “firstborn from among the dead.” 1 Cor 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. I really hope this helps…it was an 'ah ha' moment for me when I got this.

[Ed J]

Quote (Ed J @ June 14 2010,16:33)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 14 2010,14:10) Hi KM, The Spirit of Christ first became one with Jesus at the Jordan. Rebirth of water and the Spirit into Christ Jesus is also to come into unity with His God Hey Nick, Did you ever read The Urantia Book? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Nick,

I found it.
Thanks for telling me you haven't…on that thread.

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

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