Born and begotten

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ May 31 2010,10:17)

Could someone just explain the difference between 'Born' and 'Begotten' and how and when each is used along with Scriptural verses (other than, 'of Jesus' where again i ask: Which 'Today' before days was he begotten?), please, please,

Responses are being Posted that don't answer the question. Is there a reasin for this?

Or else I will form my own view….and you wouldn't like me if I did that…!

Hi JA.

I think this is a vaild question and worthy of its own topic. So I started up a topic here:

May 31, 2010 at 2:32 am#193126

http://bible.worthwhile.com/bible.p….45&w=10

Participant

First off the bat. I found this verse.

Isaiah 45:10
Woe to him who says to his father, 'What have you begotten?' or to his mother, 'What have you brought to birth?'

The following link shows the source word for both begotten and birth.

Begotten = yalad
to bear, bring forth, beget, gender, travail

birth = chuwl
pain 6, formed 5, bring forth 4, pained 4, tremble 4, travail 4, dance 2, calve 2, grieved 2, grievous 2, wounded 2, shake 2, misc 23

Might not relate, but just getting the ball rolling.

May 31, 2010 at 2:56 am#193127

Participant

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Hebrews 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Begotten = monogenes, single of its kind, only

used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

Matthew 2:1
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

Born = gennaoof men who fathered children

to be born
to be begotten
of women giving birth to children

It seems to me at a quick glance that begotten is used to describe a birth that is not natural or spiritual, (unless it is viewed from a parent’s perspective for some reason) but when we become in like kind to God or believe the same as God.

1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Born is used when talking of Jesus being born in Bethlehem and his birth, but is also extended to verses that talk of not only natural birth but birth in the spirit. e.g., that which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of spirit is spirit. A sort of natural or super-natural literal birth.

Anyone care to expand?

May 31, 2010 at 3:24 am#193131

NickHassan

Participant

Hi t8,
Sorry but I think you made a mistake.
The word BEGOTTEN in Heb 1.8 is GENNAO[1080]
not MONOGENES which is usually translated ONLY BEGOTTEN

Number 1080
Transliteration:
gennao {ghen-nah'-o}
Word Origin:
from a variation of 1085
TDNT:
1:665,114
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
begat 49, be born 39, bear 2, gender 2, bring forth 1, be delivered 1, misc 3

Total: 97
Definition:
1.of men who fathered children
A.to be born
B.to be begotten
a.of women giving birth to children
2.metaph.
A.to engender, cause to arise, excite
B.in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
C.of God making Christ his son
D.of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work

May 31, 2010 at 3:38 am#193134

Participant

Yeah, I did quite a bit of rearranging and didn't carefully read what I typed before posting.
Yes, Hebrews 1.5 seems to be talking about his birth too.

So you think the difference is being born as a kind, as opposed to being transformed or conforming to something?

May 31, 2010 at 3:53 am#193136

NickHassan

Participant

Hi T8,
I think the words born and begotten are interchangeable though monogenes is quite a different word.

May 31, 2010 at 11:27 am#193198

Arnold

Participant

In Matthew chapter one you read who “beget” who.
“BEGET”; of a male parent; to procreate or generate an offspring.
In biblical terms it means, to have received the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has generated a new way of life in you, begotten from above.
“BORN” is to be brought forth, a baby is born after 9 month, brought onto existence.
To be “born again” is to be resurrected from the dead, brought forth “again”, from the grave.

Georg

May 31, 2010 at 12:04 pm#193206

Participant

Ah, so when Paul begot Onesimus (Philemon 1:10) it means Paul gave birth to him.

Ah, and, when Abraham begot Isaac as his Only Son, he somehow rebirthed him as first son ahead of Ishmael.

Ok. I can see that!

So onto Jesus being 'begotten' 'Today'?

These are my last two questions so please make them comprehensible, i'm feeling a little out of my depth of understanding.

1) Which DAY was 'Today', seeing that before time there were no times to make days?

2) Why does God tell Jesus that He has 'begotten' him?
(Possible a pronouncement for others listening to hear…haha, i typed 'lustening' but thought it too funny to retain…)

May 31, 2010 at 4:32 pm#193221

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2010,14:53)

Hi T8,
I think the words born and begotten are interchangeable though monogenes is quite a different word.

Hi Nick,

I agree. But I have read somewhere basically what Georg posted – that “begotten” generally refers to the male parent, while “born” refers more to the female. But that is how it used to be viewed. Nowadays, I think they are completely interchangable and basically mean “caused to exist” IMO.

peace and love,
mike

May 31, 2010 at 4:47 pm#193224

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (JustAskin @ May 31 2010,23:04)

These are my last two questions so please make them comprehensible, i'm feeling a little out of my depth of understanding.

1) Which DAY was 'Today', seeing that before time there were no times to make days?

2) Why does God tell Jesus that He has 'begotten' him?
(Possible a pronouncement for others listening to hear…haha, i typed 'lustening' but thought it too funny to retain…)

Hi JA,

Maybe “Today” was the first day ever. Not a literal 24 hour day you know, but maybe the beginning of time. Maybe when Jesus was begotten, time started? And “Today I have begotten you” might have been the first words Jesus ever heard. Time then began immediately after. (All conjecture on my part.)

Your second question, I think, would be the same as you telling your child “I'm your daddy”. IMO

I find it hard to believe all the different times that people think Jesus was begotten. It seems only Lightenup, myself and Eusebius take the Bible at face value on this point and assume it to mean just what it says – Jehovah begat His Son in the beginning, and then everything else was caused to exist by the both of them.

peace and love,
mike

May 31, 2010 at 6:49 pm#193239

Participant

HI Mike,

I wouldn't put much store by LightenUp either… and as for Eusebius – didn't he play for Portugal? oh, Eusebio, sorry?

You know, all this external reference – I get all my information direct (ok, the odd Google) – but I just read my bible – Who is to say Churchullian, Eusebio, Jason Donavon, Justin Martyr… names I heard weren't just Keith's and Jacks and LU's and Arnolds and JA's and Mike's and SF's …of their time?

For me, all the answers are in the Scriptures. Right in front of the reader. Did you see the Cryptic Cross word – Could you have worked it out if I hadn't directed you? nay, spelled it out? Did you even realise that it was cryptic?

“Today” …struggle… – you are the only one to respond – Why? What's happened to all those learned ones out there? oops did I ask a question about…?

There was NO DAY before creation – “Time” (— as we know it, Capt'n!) only exists for the sake of Man….try again, please…

And as for “Who's your Daddy”? – Don't make me laugh … Ok, I've stopped now…
Why would God say “Hello, I'm your Daddy” – and if they were the first words Jesus heard … (Someone help me out here. I need a poetic line…)

To which of the Angels did he ever say: “You are my Son, Today I have begotten you”? None, because Jesus was Man at his resurrection.

Everything in the quoted Scriptures apply to Jesus as risen Christ otherwise we need to take “Sit at my righthand till I make your enemies your footstool…” to also mean “Before time…before there WAS an Enemy”.

As far as I have read God said to Satan “”Because you have done this … I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” after Satan Sinned.

Also, NICK, NO TWO words are exactly interchangeable otherwise what is the point of TWO. What my question IS and Still IS is
What IS the DIFFERENCE?

Many responses cite well known verses but never explain the Scriptural element – just the human fleshly aspects – Remember Jesus and God speak Spiritually.

What, then, is the Spiritual significance? What is Spiritual Birth and being Spiritually Begotten?

See, you make me ask again when I had said “psst…Listen carefully, I shall zay zis ornly vonce.” (I will grant a Relief From JA Torment day to the first person who can tell me where that 'quote' comes from?)
And WHICH 'DAY' was it?

May 31, 2010 at 7:36 pm#193250

Participant

First off, you need to stop being so rude to people and their views.

I'll take a shot at answering you.

Now a days….

Born and Beget mean the same exact thing.

In the same sense, motor and engine mean the same thing right?

But not all engines are motors, but all motors are engines.

In the same light, Beget always means born
but born doesn't always mean beget.

But in the human language, we are constantly changing things and their applications.

One day the word “####” only meant sexual intercorse.
Now a days it basically covers every word in the dictionary.

(nice christian example eh?)

So your question is what is the difference and meaning as it was applied to the bible?

Exactly what it means today IMO.

If it meant something else back then…o well, to bad…you will never know.

Even if someone researched ancient times, languages and their applications…

To some degree they'd be defining something based on mankind's “modern” understanding. And even if they were absolutely right in defining something, it'd still be up for good old rationalization.
——————————————————

So to answer your question,
The only difference between begot and born is absolutely nothing.

Mankind changes, God doesn't.

So how we use our man-made words to define God's word…will never suffice.

You have to do your best, form an understanding and live the best way you can.

The test doesn't require a 100% score.
Only 70%+

So chillax and focus on what you do know.

May 31, 2010 at 8:07 pm#193258

Participant

In other word…you don't know.

May 31, 2010 at 8:08 pm#193259

Participant

You waffled and waffled – I was excitedly looking for a response – and you came away with ZILCH.

Right.

And by the way, RUDE is my middle name!

May 31, 2010 at 8:31 pm#193261

Participant

That's because only a fool would claim to know it all, and only a fool would search to know everything.

Remember, God uses the lame, to shun the wise? amiright?

So in other words, I don't know.

But neither will you.

or anyone else you ask.

Cuz if they are foolish enough to give you an answer…they themselves are foolish enough to believe in their own bullcrap absolutes.

500 years ago you tell a man about a TV and he probably would of called you crazy.

Today there's a TV in nearly every home.

The point of my post was to enlighten you to the fact that, what you believe right now…could all be wiped from society and your views would have been proven wrong by someone in the future.

So don't hold tight to your absolute views…
If God wanted, he could manifest another.

But people like you, would then be arguing quadinarian views (or anti-quads, w/e) lol.

May 31, 2010 at 8:34 pm#193262

Participant

RM,

So if the man is taken to court accused of “Motoring” the wrong way up the hill… what can we also say that he 'engined' up the hill?
So, the judge wants to know exactly how he “Motored up the Hill”
– the prosecutor says “There is only one definition for Motor, m'lud, 'Engine'/'Motor', He used an ENGINE, a car, vehicle, a machine”
– “Ah”, says the defence councillor, “He RAN up the Hill. And while I agree that his body is 'an Engine', 'a vehicle', 'a Machine' m'lud, it is not the same thing as a 'Car', His “Motoring” that the witness mis-heard after the accident just meant he was 'go at speed' – on foot…if he was responsible then why was he not injured in any way?”
– Judge “Ah, so the crash that caused damaged to that other vehicle was not cause by the defendant – case dismissed!”

May 31, 2010 at 8:42 pm#193265

Participant

Ha ha – RM – you are a hoot –

You wrote a whole thesis and tell me off – and now claim that – in fact – you didn't KNOW – … You think that admitting it makes you look good!
Well, yes and no…

I heard a woman won a 'get thin contest of the year by a mile' … She had stuffed herself so much she was about to burst. She entered the contest and stopped eating – not because she was addicted like the rest but just to win – she was a Scam – but you know what – She was hailed as a 'hero-in” – ah, I said that wrong – …
There was this woman who was on drugs…she admitted being a druggy and went into rehab and came out free – she got into all the papers and ended up being a “Heroin” for admitting her fault!!

Celebrities – can't love em – can't hate'em – to hatee'm is to make'em more famous for being hated…to lovee'm is to make 'em famous for being loved…

May 31, 2010 at 9:05 pm#193269

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ June 01 2010,07:42)

Ha ha – RM – you are a hoot –

You wrote a whole thesis and tell me off – and now claim that – in fact – you didn't KNOW – … You think that admitting it makes you look good!
Well, yes and no…

Celebrities – can't love em – can't hate'em – to hatee'm is to make'em more famous for being hated…to lovee'm is to make 'em famous for being loved…

Ahhh, now you're getting it.

You see, if you trollied on over to my recent response to you on the …Why is the bible so difficult thread

Then you'd see that you are entirely agreeing with me. lol

I did a swell job then.

What was t8's signature?

Something to the effect of, an honest but mistaken man, when presented the truth either ceases to be honest or mistaken.

————————-
Check out my post before you come back here and reply because we are in complete agreement.

Even those two anecdotes you supplied, played perfectly to my logic.

The point is…

there are always two sides to the fence.

People will pile up on either side.

One thinks this fence is the truth and better place…the other thinks the same.

They're each trying to grab and pull people over onto their side of the fence….but guess what'll happen if one side successfully pulls everyone over?

#1 That particular fence will no longer divide.
#2 A new fence will be created and the process repeated

———–
As christians, we should

#1 Get rid of the fence entirely, so we don't fall into the mistake of building new fences like we already have.

#2 Be wise enough to realize, a fence is man made.

God is truth, you won't know it all until you're dead.
Fighting, nashing, bashing, tearing, and ripping at eachother to get people to believe in YOU isn't spreading the gospel or even debating it.

Because you're debating, YOUR WORDS and YOUR VIEWS.

But you're forgetting someone…..God

So if there is something, you cannot explicitely agree with God on…you as a man have no right trying to shove those views down other people's throats.

That's all i'm saying.

May 31, 2010 at 9:19 pm#193274

Participant

RM,

Were you claiming that I, J-'rudebwoy'-A, is saying he knows it all. Far from it, my friend, JustAskin has been learning a whole heap, even from the 'little ones', especially from the 'little ones'.

And if you're referring to my response to Mikeboll, yeah, Mike is my begotten Brother, and we're allowed to bash each other's ideas – not normally publicly. You just come along and ASSUME something was amiss – now THAT IS RUDE…!

May 31, 2010 at 9:50 pm#193280