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Quote (Stu @ Dec. 31 2009,11:17) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 31 2009,11:03) I already stated to you that there is no prohibition against marriage to anyone that it is lawful to marry, you can play all you want but all your eally saying is that there should be no large age gap between two individuals getting married as the calculations are always the same a 40 year old with a 25 year old means that when the 40 year old was 20 the 25 year old was 5. Arranged marriages were common and still are today but still there is no evil in it and it is not prohibited in any HOLY BOOK. In-fact even Evolution supports early involvement as oppose to later relations. You lose again and why? Because I don't try to accomodate you like other Christians not wanting to confront the truth head on.
But when I say you lose, I really mean you win because you are receiving the truth here today.
Learn!
Where was I objecting on age difference?This is about development. A nine year old girl is in no position to be agreeing to arragements about sexual relationships with adult males, whether they will be comsummated at that stage or not.
This is child abuse from whatever angle you look. That is what the law of your country says too, and I am a bit alarmed that you seem to be saying that what your country now calls child abuse, was OK in traditional islamic society (and indeed in other non-muslim cultures).
Not sure what 'truth I have learned here'. You are stuck in the transmit mode required by your faith, but that does not mean you are transmitting anything of value.
I think by most Western secular standards what you are describing here is unethical.
Stuart
The arrangements are not or were not made by her, they were made by her parents but the proof is in the pudding. The marriage was successful, he also married an older woman how was she superior?My country now accepts Homosexual marriage but that is a prohibition of all Holy Books as well. You said you were concerned with consistency as morality being absolute. Well, I am telling you what was okay in the Quran yesterday is okay in the Quran today.
The marriage you speak of was not even in the Quran but it also was not prohibited.
By western secular standards a man can marry a man and I am sure you find no problem with it and actually I don't find a problem with it either but it is prohibited nonetheless.
Quote (Stu @ Dec. 31 2009,11:22) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 31 2009,11:06) To perform the act of coitous both organisms must have viable reproductive systems so the very first couple of organisms would have had to reach this point exactly at the same time in a single lifespan in order to be succesful. Do you get it , yet?
While it may seem trivially obvious, it is actually a demonstration of your ignorance about your distant ancestry.You are assuming some kind of instant divine creation model then criticising natural history because it does not match your mythology.
The problem, whichever way you consider it, is that your model does not match reality. Time to change the model!
Stuart
What are you talking about? Don't just panic and spout a dizzying barrage of incoherency. Species have to be able to have viable reproduce systems and sexual reproduction must take place between two viable organisms within a single lifetime for reproduction to occur therefore you would need two complimentary organisms capable of reproducing in a single lifetime starting from the very first pair.You cannot have two lifetimes of only males or females the initial sexual act had to have both genders both sexually viable and mature, capable of reproduction not only in one species but in every original speciation.
You Lose! I love you though so LEARN
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 31 2009,12:53) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 31 2009,11:17) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 31 2009,11:03) I already stated to you that there is no prohibition against marriage to anyone that it is lawful to marry, you can play all you want but all your eally saying is that there should be no large age gap between two individuals getting married as the calculations are always the same a 40 year old with a 25 year old means that when the 40 year old was 20 the 25 year old was 5. Arranged marriages were common and still are today but still there is no evil in it and it is not prohibited in any HOLY BOOK. In-fact even Evolution supports early involvement as oppose to later relations. You lose again and why? Because I don't try to accomodate you like other Christians not wanting to confront the truth head on.
But when I say you lose, I really mean you win because you are receiving the truth here today.
Learn!
Where was I objecting on age difference?This is about development. A nine year old girl is in no position to be agreeing to arragements about sexual relationships with adult males, whether they will be comsummated at that stage or not.
This is child abuse from whatever angle you look. That is what the law of your country says too, and I am a bit alarmed that you seem to be saying that what your country now calls child abuse, was OK in traditional islamic society (and indeed in other non-muslim cultures).
Not sure what 'truth I have learned here'. You are stuck in the transmit mode required by your faith, but that does not mean you are transmitting anything of value.
I think by most Western secular standards what you are describing here is unethical.
Stuart
The arrangements are not or were not made by her, they were made by her parents but the proof is in the pudding. The marriage was successful, he also married an older woman how was she superior?My country now accepts Homosexual marriage but that is a prohibition of all Holy Books as well. You said you were concerned with consistency as morality being absolute. Well, I am telling you what was okay in the Quran yesterday is okay in the Quran today.
The marriage you speak of was not even in the Quran but it also was not prohibited.
By western secular standards a man can marry a man and I am sure you find no problem with it and actually I don't find a problem with it either but it is prohibited nonetheless.
Regarding arranged marriage, yes that is what I was saying, arranging the future sexual relationship of a nine year old girl amounts to child abuse. That is immoral in today's Western terms. What does Mohammad's other marriage arrangements have to do with it? Polygamy is about arrangements between consenting adults and frankly is of little interest I would have thought.I accept that following the koran means you will be consistent (up to the point of the massive disagreements amongst muslims about what it actually says) and that by modern Western standards the koran is out of step ethically.
So the koran prohibits things with which you have no problem. I agree with you on the issue of gay marriage, but the koran also fails to prohibit things with which I do have a problem, for example exceptions to the rule against killing people and making arrangements to marry off underage children.
Stuart
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 31 2009,13:00) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 31 2009,11:22) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 31 2009,11:06) To perform the act of coitous both organisms must have viable reproductive systems so the very first couple of organisms would have had to reach this point exactly at the same time in a single lifespan in order to be succesful. Do you get it , yet?
While it may seem trivially obvious, it is actually a demonstration of your ignorance about your distant ancestry.You are assuming some kind of instant divine creation model then criticising natural history because it does not match your mythology.
The problem, whichever way you consider it, is that your model does not match reality. Time to change the model!
Stuart
What are you talking about? Don't just panic and spout a dizzying barrage of incoherency. Species have to be able to have viable reproduce systems and sexual reproduction must take place between two viable organisms within a single lifetime for reproduction to occur therefore you would need two complimentary organisms capable of reproducing in a single lifetime starting from the very first pair.You cannot have two lifetimes of only males or females the initial sexual act had to have both genders both sexually viable and mature, capable of reproduction not only in one species but in every original speciation.
You Lose! I love you though so LEARN
I didn't think it was that dizzying. Quite straightforward in fact.Why do the organisms have to be 'complimentary'? As I have pointed out to you they can be identical and still capable of sexual reproduction. Although the origins of sexual reproduction are not entirely clear, differentiation into genders was a much later development than sexual reproduction itself.
Your problem here is with the concept of speciation. That in turn is derived from the model you carry in your head of what you think evolution is. There is no such thing as 'the very first pair' of anything sexually reproducing. There has never been a time when there were just two human beings. There is no definite line in time after which we are definitely 'humans' and before which we definitely weren't. Evolution is the change in gene frequency in a whole population, not the magical appearance of a breeding pair for a new species, that would be impossible. That goes for any species. I hope you can see why this makes your 'Law' irrelevant to natural history.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Dec. 31 2009,14:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 31 2009,12:53) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 31 2009,11:17) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 31 2009,11:03) I already stated to you that there is no prohibition against marriage to anyone that it is lawful to marry, you can play all you want but all your eally saying is that there should be no large age gap between two individuals getting married as the calculations are always the same a 40 year old with a 25 year old means that when the 40 year old was 20 the 25 year old was 5. Arranged marriages were common and still are today but still there is no evil in it and it is not prohibited in any HOLY BOOK. In-fact even Evolution supports early involvement as oppose to later relations. You lose again and why? Because I don't try to accomodate you like other Christians not wanting to confront the truth head on.
But when I say you lose, I really mean you win because you are receiving the truth here today.
Learn!
Where was I objecting on age difference?This is about development. A nine year old girl is in no position to be agreeing to arragements about sexual relationships with adult males, whether they will be comsummated at that stage or not.
This is child abuse from whatever angle you look. That is what the law of your country says too, and I am a bit alarmed that you seem to be saying that what your country now calls child abuse, was OK in traditional islamic society (and indeed in other non-muslim cultures).
Not sure what 'truth I have learned here'. You are stuck in the transmit mode required by your faith, but that does not mean you are transmitting anything of value.
I think by most Western secular standards what you are describing here is unethical.
Stuart
The arrangements are not or were not made by her, they were made by her parents but the proof is in the pudding. The marriage was successful, he also married an older woman how was she superior?My country now accepts Homosexual marriage but that is a prohibition of all Holy Books as well. You said you were concerned with consistency as morality being absolute. Well, I am telling you what was okay in the Quran yesterday is okay in the Quran today.
The marriage you speak of was not even in the Quran but it also was not prohibited.
By western secular standards a man can marry a man and I am sure you find no problem with it and actually I don't find a problem with it either but it is prohibited nonetheless.
Regarding arranged marriage, yes that is what I was saying, arranging the future sexual relationship of a nine year old girl amounts to child abuse. That is immoral in today's Western terms. What does Mohammad's other marriage arrangements have to do with it? Polygamy is about arrangements between consenting adults and frankly is of little interest I would have thought.I accept that following the koran means you will be consistent (up to the point of the massive disagreements amongst muslims about what it actually says) and that by modern Western standards the koran is out of step ethically.
So the koran prohibits things with which you have no problem. I agree with you on the issue of gay marriage, but the koran also fails to prohibit things with which I do have a problem, for example exceptions to the rule against killing people and making arrangements to marry off underage children.
Stuart
in other words you want your morals seem right to youQuote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 31 2009,15:37) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 31 2009,14:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 31 2009,12:53) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 31 2009,11:17) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 31 2009,11:03) I already stated to you that there is no prohibition against marriage to anyone that it is lawful to marry, you can play all you want but all your eally saying is that there should be no large age gap between two individuals getting married as the calculations are always the same a 40 year old with a 25 year old means that when the 40 year old was 20 the 25 year old was 5. Arranged marriages were common and still are today but still there is no evil in it and it is not prohibited in any HOLY BOOK. In-fact even Evolution supports early involvement as oppose to later relations. You lose again and why? Because I don't try to accomodate you like other Christians not wanting to confront the truth head on.
But when I say you lose, I really mean you win because you are receiving the truth here today.
Learn!
Where was I objecting on age difference?This is about development. A nine year old girl is in no position to be agreeing to arragements about sexual relationships with adult males, whether they will be comsummated at that stage or not.
This is child abuse from whatever angle you look. That is what the law of your country says too, and I am a bit alarmed that you seem to be saying that what your country now calls child abuse, was OK in traditional islamic society (and indeed in other non-muslim cultures).
Not sure what 'truth I have learned here'. You are stuck in the transmit mode required by your faith, but that does not mean you are transmitting anything of value.
I think by most Western secular standards what you are describing here is unethical.
Stuart
The arrangements are not or were not made by her, they were made by her parents but the proof is in the pudding. The marriage was successful, he also married an older woman how was she superior?My country now accepts Homosexual marriage but that is a prohibition of all Holy Books as well. You said you were concerned with consistency as morality being absolute. Well, I am telling you what was okay in the Quran yesterday is okay in the Quran today.
The marriage you speak of was not even in the Quran but it also was not prohibited.
By western secular standards a man can marry a man and I am sure you find no problem with it and actually I don't find a problem with it either but it is prohibited nonetheless.
Regarding arranged marriage, yes that is what I was saying, arranging the future sexual relationship of a nine year old girl amounts to child abuse. That is immoral in today's Western terms. What does Mohammad's other marriage arrangements have to do with it? Polygamy is about arrangements between consenting adults and frankly is of little interest I would have thought.I accept that following the koran means you will be consistent (up to the point of the massive disagreements amongst muslims about what it actually says) and that by modern Western standards the koran is out of step ethically.
So the koran prohibits things with which you have no problem. I agree with you on the issue of gay marriage, but the koran also fails to prohibit things with which I do have a problem, for example exceptions to the rule against killing people and making arrangements to marry off underage children.
Stuart
in other words you want your morals seem right to you
Could you please rewrite that so your meaning is clear?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Dec. 31 2009,15:53) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 31 2009,15:37) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 31 2009,14:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 31 2009,12:53) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 31 2009,11:17) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 31 2009,11:03) I already stated to you that there is no prohibition against marriage to anyone that it is lawful to marry, you can play all you want but all your eally saying is that there should be no large age gap between two individuals getting married as the calculations are always the same a 40 year old with a 25 year old means that when the 40 year old was 20 the 25 year old was 5. Arranged marriages were common and still are today but still there is no evil in it and it is not prohibited in any HOLY BOOK. In-fact even Evolution supports early involvement as oppose to later relations. You lose again and why? Because I don't try to accomodate you like other Christians not wanting to confront the truth head on.
But when I say you lose, I really mean you win because you are receiving the truth here today.
Learn!
Where was I objecting on age difference?This is about development. A nine year old girl is in no position to be agreeing to arragements about sexual relationships with adult males, whether they will be comsummated at that stage or not.
This is child abuse from whatever angle you look. That is what the law of your country says too, and I am a bit alarmed that you seem to be saying that what your country now calls child abuse, was OK in traditional islamic society (and indeed in other non-muslim cultures).
Not sure what 'truth I have learned here'. You are stuck in the transmit mode required by your faith, but that does not mean you are transmitting anything of value.
I think by most Western secular standards what you are describing here is unethical.
Stuart
The arrangements are not or were not made by her, they were made by her parents but the proof is in the pudding. The marriage was successful, he also married an older woman how was she superior?My country now accepts Homosexual marriage but that is a prohibition of all Holy Books as well. You said you were concerned with consistency as morality being absolute. Well, I am telling you what was okay in the Quran yesterday is okay in the Quran today.
The marriage you speak of was not even in the Quran but it also was not prohibited.
By western secular standards a man can marry a man and I am sure you find no problem with it and actually I don't find a problem with it either but it is prohibited nonetheless.
Regarding arranged marriage, yes that is what I was saying, arranging the future sexual relationship of a nine year old girl amounts to child abuse. That is immoral in today's Western terms. What does Mohammad's other marriage arrangements have to do with it? Polygamy is about arrangements between consenting adults and frankly is of little interest I would have thought.I accept that following the koran means you will be consistent (up to the point of the massive disagreements amongst muslims about what it actually says) and that by modern Western standards the koran is out of step ethically.
So the koran prohibits things with which you have no problem. I agree with you on the issue of gay marriage, but the koran also fails to prohibit things with which I do have a problem, for example exceptions to the rule against killing people and making arrangements to marry off underage children.
Stuart
in other words you want your morals seem right to you
Could you please rewrite that so your meaning is clear?Stuart
What STU likes is acceptable as excellent Morals is your belief, how vain and arrogant no wonder your constantly battling depressionQuote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 31 2009,16:27) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 31 2009,15:53) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 31 2009,15:37) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 31 2009,14:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 31 2009,12:53) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 31 2009,11:17) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 31 2009,11:03) I already stated to you that there is no prohibition against marriage to anyone that it is lawful to marry, you can play all you want but all your eally saying is that there should be no large age gap between two individuals getting married as the calculations are always the same a 40 year old with a 25 year old means that when the 40 year old was 20 the 25 year old was 5. Arranged marriages were common and still are today but still there is no evil in it and it is not prohibited in any HOLY BOOK. In-fact even Evolution supports early involvement as oppose to later relations. You lose again and why? Because I don't try to accomodate you like other Christians not wanting to confront the truth head on.
But when I say you lose, I really mean you win because you are receiving the truth here today.
Learn!
Where was I objecting on age difference?This is about development. A nine year old girl is in no position to be agreeing to arragements about sexual relationships with adult males, whether they will be comsummated at that stage or not.
This is child abuse from whatever angle you look. That is what the law of your country says too, and I am a bit alarmed that you seem to be saying that what your country now calls child abuse, was OK in traditional islamic society (and indeed in other non-muslim cultures).
Not sure what 'truth I have learned here'. You are stuck in the transmit mode required by your faith, but that does not mean you are transmitting anything of value.
I think by most Western secular standards what you are describing here is unethical.
Stuart
The arrangements are not or were not made by her, they were made by her parents but the proof is in the pudding. The marriage was successful, he also married an older woman how was she superior?My country now accepts Homosexual marriage but that is a prohibition of all Holy Books as well. You said you were concerned with consistency as morality being absolute. Well, I am telling you what was okay in the Quran yesterday is okay in the Quran today.
The marriage you speak of was not even in the Quran but it also was not prohibited.
By western secular standards a man can marry a man and I am sure you find no problem with it and actually I don't find a problem with it either but it is prohibited nonetheless.
Regarding arranged marriage, yes that is what I was saying, arranging the future sexual relationship of a nine year old girl amounts to child abuse. That is immoral in today's Western terms. What does Mohammad's other marriage arrangements have to do with it? Polygamy is about arrangements between consenting adults and frankly is of little interest I would have thought.I accept that following the koran means you will be consistent (up to the point of the massive disagreements amongst muslims about what it actually says) and that by modern Western standards the koran is out of step ethically.
So the koran prohibits things with which you have no problem. I agree with you on the issue of gay marriage, but the koran also fails to prohibit things with which I do have a problem, for example exceptions to the rule against killing people and making arrangements to marry off underage children.
Stuart
in other words you want your morals seem right to you
Could you please rewrite that so your meaning is clear?Stuart
What STU likes is acceptable as excellent Morals is your belief, how vain and arrogant no wonder your constantly battling depression
Nope, you're going to have to have another go.How about instead of free verse you try parsing it according to the conventions of English grammar?
Stuart
There is no debate going on here, it is just BD in broadcast mode.
Are you declaring me the winner?
I actually don't care to be honest!
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 01 2010,08:33) There is no debate going on here, it is just BD in broadcast mode. Are you declaring me the winner?
I actually don't care to be honest!
Stuart
Your belief is:What Stu believes as excellent Morals, are excellent Morals.
STU, face it you are free from morality but you want to impose your construct of Morality on others, you are a hypocrite.
I'm just pointing it out, not expecting you to change.
There are some atheists who are not hypocries they will tell you that even having sex with animals is perfectly fine and doing whatever you want to do is fine because there is no afterlife or future judgement.
Those atheists (although I don't know any who really think that way) are unthinking idiots then, aren't they.
BD, you are full of telling me what my beliefs are.
Just to correct you,
I am not free from morality, in fact I was explaining to you the source of my morality not long back.
I do not want to impose my 'construct of morality' on anyone, I simply point it out as an explanation for the origins of ethics in humans. It is islamist fundamentalists (and christian ones) who want to impose their morals on others.
There is no 'afterlife' or 'judgment' on people, what a miserable load of paranoid nonsense that is. Atheists are ethical without the need for supernatural threats.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 01 2010,10:15) Those atheists (although I don't know any who really think that way) are unthinking idiots then, aren't they. BD, you are full of telling me what my beliefs are.
Just to correct you,
I am not free from morality, in fact I was explaining to you the source of my morality not long back.
I do not want to impose my 'construct of morality' on anyone, I simply point it out as an explanation for the origins of ethics in humans. It is islamist fundamentalists (and christian ones) who want to impose their morals on others.
There is no 'afterlife' or 'judgment' on people, what a miserable load of paranoid nonsense that is. Atheists are ethical without the need for supernatural threats.
Stuart
How are you Ethical or Moral if your life has no purpose?Is there a reason to be Moral or Ethical, does it have a Purpose?
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 01 2010,10:47) What makes you think my life has no purpose? Stuart
You said life has no Purpose or Meaning,. You said we just construct Meaning and Purpose.Does life now have an actual Purpose or does evolution have a goal?
Which of those questions would you like an answer to?
Do you have a comprehension problem regarding what I said about purpose? Do you remember the word 'inherent'?
Life has no inherent purpose but you make your own purpose. You have done exactly the same. Maybe it is your religious beliefs that provide you with that meaning, but it would be arrogant for anyone to claim that the only 'true' meaning is that provided by his religious beliefs and all other self-determined meanings are invalid.
You don't believe that, do you?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 01 2010,14:28) Which of those questions would you like an answer to? Do you have a comprehension problem regarding what I said about purpose? Do you remember the word 'inherent'?
Life has no inherent purpose but you make your own purpose. You have done exactly the same. Maybe it is your religious beliefs that provide you with that meaning, but it would be arrogant for anyone to claim that the only 'true' meaning is that provided by his religious beliefs and all other self-determined meanings are invalid.
You don't believe that, do you?
Stuart
All self determined meanings are vain and invalid either life has an inherent purpose or it has no meaning at all.You don't believe in God and therefore you have to believe that any purpose you “make up” is only to “get by” through life and yet why is it you remain depressed?
The reason is you cannot pretend to have meaning when reality asserts itself and without God the reality is you are without any meaning or purpose at all.
Sorry to hear that you think the meaning you have determined for your own life is 'vain and invalid'.
I do not share your pessimism.
You asserting that there is a god does not improve the chances that an such thing exists.
That is all you have really, isn't it. Assertion.
Stuart
The last 2 posts were deleted.
This is a debate between BD and Stu only.
The rules are on the first page.
Is this man who attacked a cartoonist a real muslim?
Danish cartoonist attacker suspected of al Qaeda ties
Stuart
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