Bizzaro World Doctrines

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June 22, 2011 at 11:45 pm#249540

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ June 21 2011,22:30)

Quote

John 17(KJV)

18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The apostles were sent into the world the same was as Jesus and so according to you bizaro reasoning they are preexistent as well.

You use this scripture as a “cure all”, but there are two easy defenses for it:

1. When his daughter graduated, John sent her into the world to see Paris and Tokyo and N.Y.C., etc.

Nothing bizarre about that, right? Many college grads travel extensively, right? Now let's add some more information:

When his daughter graduated from the premiere academy on the planet Mars, John sent her into the world to see Paris and Tokyo and N.Y.C., etc.

With this added information, all of a sudden “into the world” means something completely different, right? If the angel God sent to Daniel was said to be sent “into the world” to deliver a message to Daniel, it would mean a much different thing than if Daniel, after receiving that message, was sent “into the world” to proclaim it.

You are arguing this point the way the Trinitarians argue John 5:23. They claim that the honor due the Son is “just as” the honor due the Father, therefore they are equal. But the truth is that “just as” means we are to honor the Father, AND we are to honor the Son ALSO. It doesn't mean they are both God, and so both deserve the honor due only to God, right?

So Jesus' words could be faithfully taken to mean, “Just as you sent me FROM HEAVEN into the world, I am now sending these disciples [OUT] into the world FROM JERUSALEM.

2. Our other choice is to not use the phrase “sent into the world” as a pre-existent proof text in the first place. In fact, I personally haven't seen this used as proof of Jesus' pre-existence for quite a while on this site. We are not dependent upon these verses as we have many others proofs to present.

Which reminds me, would you PLEASE address the “I came DOWN from heaven” scripture? It is the Bizzaro World claims you guys have made about THIS passage that caused me to post it on this thread. And so far, instead of addressing that scripture, you have danced all around it, claimed that prayer is now my only hope, and quoted John 17:18 – as if that verse makes the other one just go away.

I am still anxiously awaiting your response to my “I came down from heaven” post, and nothing more.

peace,
mike

June 22, 2011 at 11:56 pm#249541

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 22 2011,17:29)

Kerwin ……….. You have it right, Root (of) a person (MEANS) a decedent from that person.. The word Root and Offspring is in the same sentence and subject matter of what Jesus was saying. Only in bizarre world do people separate it to mean something it is not saying. The word ROOT is used to show linage , just as Offs[ring is. King Davis came out of the Root of Jesse the same as Jesus also did through David he is considered also a root of Jesse.

peace and lvoe to you and yours……………………………..gene

Thanks Gene!

I don't even have to change a single word of your post!

So it is your contention that Jesus said he was the “Descendent AND the Descendent” of David?

June 23, 2011 at 12:23 am#249542

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (t8 @ June 22 2011,04:11)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 22 2011,14:56)

Here's another example of “Exception for Jesus” logic:

Yes that exception rule is definitely bizarre.

As soon as Jesus is mentioned all logic and teaching by pattern in scripture is thrown out the window.

How true. Here's one straight from the current headlines (by which I mean “from a post Kangaroo Jack made today”. )

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 22 2011,11:19)

Supporting verse: “I am the Good Shepherd.” Jesus spoke blasphemy if He was not Jehovah or equal with Jehovah.

Hmmm…………what about Cyrus? He was a prophesied about messiah, just like Jesus was. He was sent to save Israel, just like Jesus was. And he was “my shepherd”, according to Jehovah:

Isaiah 44:28
who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please;

I don't think Jehovah would have sent a “BAD shepherd” to save His chosen nation, so we can confidently assume that Cyrus was a “GOOD shepherd”, right?

So why isn't Cyrus also God Almighty? Cyrus can be a shepherd of Jehovah's people and NOT be God Almighty. David can be a shepherd of Jehovah's people and NOT be God Almighty. But when JESUS is called a shepherd of Jehovah's people, look out!

And not only does this example fit into the “Exception for Jesus” rule, but also into the “Same Name Game” rule, that I mentioned earlier on this thread. This latter rule states that if Jehovah and Jesus have the same name, quality, or title attributed to them, they MUST be the same BEING. For example, Jesus is “good” and Jehovah is “good”, therefore Jesus IS Jehovah!

It must be noted that the “Same Name Game” is TOTALLY dependent upon the “Exception for Jesus” rule, and can only be used in conjunction with that rule.

To demonstrate, if David is called “good” and Jehovah is called “good”, then David is NOT Jehovah. If Moses is called “good” and Jehovah is called “good”, then Moses is NOT Jehovah. It is ONLY when JESUS and Jehovah have the same quality or title attributed to them that it means Jesus IS Jehovah.

peace,
mike

June 23, 2011 at 12:52 am#249543

mikeboll64

Blocked

We need Jack to visit more often, for in one post, he has given us three Bizzaro World claims. The first I mentioned in my last post. Here are two more:

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 22 2011,11:19)

However, your argument against Trinitarianism on the basis of the “him” reading is erroneous because (1) the JW's have argued that Jehovah frequently referred to Himself in both in the first and third persons in the same breath…………….

Jesus also referred to himself in both the first and third person on many occasions. Every time he said the words “Son of Man”, it was in the third person. And here's one of them where he does it “in the same breath”:

Matthew 10:23
When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

So if Jesus referring to himself in the third person doesn't mean there are TWO “Son of Mans”, then why would his Father doing it mean there are TWO “Jehovahs”?

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 22 2011,11:19)

………….and (2) Christ is presented as EQUAL to Jehovah in 13:7:

7″Awake, O sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who STANDS NEXT to me, declares the Jehovah of hosts. ESV

Jehovah's Shepherd is the “Man who STANDS NEXT to Him. This is a CLEAR indication of the Shepherd's EQUALITY with Jehovah.

Only in Bizzaro World would one STANDING NEXT TO another indicate equality between the two. If King David stood next to his horse, would they be equal?

And when you factor in that Jesus is called “my shepherd” by Jehovah, just like Cyrus was, it is hard to imagine that those words mean Jesus is equal to Jehovah when the same words DON'T mean that Cyrus is equal to Jehovah.

This is just another case of the “Exception for Jesus” rule.

June 23, 2011 at 2:12 am#249555

942767

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 22 2011,13:31)

Quote (kerwin @ June 20 2011,23:48)

Mike you open yourself up on that claim as Jesus states he sent his disciples into the world as he was sent into the world.

Hi Kerwin,

How many of Jesus' disciples said “I came DOWN from heaven”? Stick with the Bizzaro reasoning I actually posted, and if you can, refute MY understanding of those scriptural words. Because THAT is what this thread is all about: I'm hoping that people like you and Gene and Keith WILL come over here and clarify some of this nonsense.

I will await said clarification from you about “I came down from heaven”, as it will undoubtedly give us even MORE gibberish to headline in this thread.

peace,
mike

Hi Mike:

I asked the following in the Pre-existent 2 thread and I didn't get an answer from you, and so, I will ask it again here:

When Jesus said he came down from heaven. Was he speaking of his body, soul, and spirit?

Love in Christ,
Marty

June 23, 2011 at 2:33 am#249558

terraricca

Participant

Quote (942767 @ June 23 2011,20:12)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 22 2011,13:31)

Quote (kerwin @ June 20 2011,23:48)

Mike you open yourself up on that claim as Jesus states he sent his disciples into the world as he was sent into the world.

Hi Kerwin,

I will await said clarification from you about “I came down from heaven”, as it will undoubtedly give us even MORE gibberish to headline in this thread.

peace,
mike

Hi Mike:

I asked the following in the Pre-existent 2 thread and I didn't get an answer from you, and so, I will ask it again here:

When Jesus said he came down from heaven. Was he speaking of his body, soul, and spirit?

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty

it is not whit is body that one his mother fix it for him

Pierre

June 23, 2011 at 4:13 am#249569

kerwin

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 23 2011,05:45)